Charlottesville, Virginia

[spacejunk]

fascism deprives everyone of even the most basic freedom of speech.

if you cared about freedom of speech, you wouldn't be arguing in favour of this heavily armed militia descending on a town to intimidate people.

if this is about freedom of speech, what did they say?
who spoke?

there wasn't any speeches i saw - these people didn't - and don't - get together for speech. they're interested in war. in violence.
they turned up to pose, throw their weight around and fight people who spoke out against them. don't kid yourself that this has anything to do with speech.

 

[RedLeader]

The idea that the car murder exonerates all of the Antifa violence because it is of a far more serious magnitude is nonsense. If Antifa subsequently drove its own bus into five people, would this in turn exonerate the sins of the first car?

Different people will have different opinions on who is at fault for this because different people attach different morality to violence. And then who is at fault in the legal sense may differ from who is at fault in the moral sense.

 

[spacejunk]

A lot of your position rests on the presumption that you are correct in your designation of who is a nazi and who isn't. I don't know much about this event in the USA, but the relation I made to the UK situation I know that the BNP, EDL etc are not Nazis. There may be individuals within those groups who are sure, but as a whole they aren't nazis or fascists. Distasteful political opinions maybe, but that's a matter of ones perceptions.

splitting hairs really.
besides, i'm talking about charlottesville. i reckon it's a safe bet the dickheads seig hailing trump are fascists.

Unless these people were making actual threats or directly harassing members of the public you can't claim there demonstration was unlawful really. Any large group of people is intimidating, and threatening if the motivation for being there is political. But that's not the same as intimidating individuals or directly threatening individuals. That may have happened here, I haven't really paid that much attention to this news story to be honest.

they turned up to bash and intimidate people.
you're defending the indefensible. i know you can't see past your politics on this, but these guys are a bunch of scumbags, and i'm glad people gave them hell.

Again this seems to rest on your belief that you know who the fascists are. In the UK it's clear to me who the real fascists are, and it's not the far-right groups.

it's the guys seig hailing.

Well if that's your position fine, I just wonder if you have the capacity to recognize the hypocrisy of your position. You're fine with violence just so long as it's your violence. In my opinion that makes you just as dangerous as any fascist or nazi.

oddly enough, being called a hypocrite by a nazi apologist doesn't concern me.

So what about Black Lives Mattter? Are you comfortable with that organization and their position? From what I've seen and read they're filled with as much hate as any other group mentioned in this discussion.

...from swhat you've seen?
black lives matter are awesome. i support them.

I know it makes perfect sense to you. That's why your position is as dangerous as those you claim to oppose. You're blinded by your own political anger.

lol
whatever mate.

 

[spacejunk]

The idea that the car murder exonerates all of the Antifa violence because it is of a far more serious magnitude is nonsense. If Antifa subsequently drove its own bus into five people, would this in turn exonerate the sins of the first car?

Different people will have different opinions on who is at fault for this because different people attach different morality to violence. And then who is at fault in the legal sense may differ from who is at fault in the moral sense.

one of these groups of people was a heavily armed militia.

what do you think their relationship to violence is?

how many people have antifascists killed in america?
how about white supremacists?

it's disingenuous to pretend that this problem started with "antifa" - or with trump. it goes back centuries. this racially motivated violence is ingrained in colonial mindsets.
trump has reinvigorated an acceptance of these kinds of views, and these groups are becoming a serious threat. this is not the first murder committed by a white supremacist in the ~9 months or so of trump's presidency.

normalising this bullshit is apparently trumps idea of making america "great again".

violence begets violence. this war wasn't started by anti-racists or anti-fascists.

 

[Fresco]

Yes, I'm sure the anti-fascists came to the rally in peace, love and holding up pink butterflies 8)
Come on now, they came to agitate the nazi's and they got what they wished for

violence begets violence

You are absolutely right.
And what did the anti-fa come for?? They came for the violence, right??

 

[spacejunk]

Come on now, they came to agitate the nazi's and they got what they wished for

getting killed and maimed by that coward in the car?


really?

 

[alasdairm]

They came for the violence, right??

seriously? you think that heather heyer went there wishing to die under the wheels of a car?

that's pretty low.



alasdair

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

fascism deprives everyone of even the most basic freedom of speech.

if you cared about freedom of speech, you wouldn't be arguing in favour of this heavily armed militia descending on a town to intimidate people.

if this is about freedom of speech, what did they say?
who spoke?

there wasn't any speeches i saw - these people didn't - and don't - get together for speech. they're interested in war. in violence.
they turned up to pose, throw their weight around and fight people who spoke out against them. don't kid yourself that this has anything to do with speech.

Wow, just wow....

And you are an administrator?

I am absolutely speechless with your reply.
I bow down to you and am finished with this discussion since you obviously know it all.

 

[Fresco]

getting killed and maimed by that coward in the car?


really?

seriously? you think that heather heyer went there wishing to die under the wheels of a car?

that's pretty low.



alasdair

No, I'm talking about the riot in general. Thats what they came for, and they got it.
Of course its a tragedy that girl got run over

 

[spacejunk]

Yes, freedom is always the right answer.

freedom and fascism do not coexist.
racism and injustice do not equate to 'freedom' for people that are subjected to them.

So then, let people be free. If you're that asshole that just HAS to be violent, expect to be arrested, jailed or whatever is appropriate.

What so difficult about that?

i found the video that shows the nazis started this fight.

seems pretty conclusive. i don't see them getting arrested. in fact, there don't seem to be police there at all.

i hate to think what this heavily armed mob would be capable of it it weren't for people resisting their presence. i'lm actually shocked out how complacent some people are about neo-nazis.
how sterilised this idea of fascism seems to have become to some people.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Ah... I see the difference in perception here:

You... About whateverthefuck group vs antifa/BLM

Me... About the all the protests vs some asshat who decides today is the day to kill "X"

ok.. I understand what you are saying

we are finally on the same page, sort of...

my only question is should the "people" or the "government" enforce this

Let me ask you just one question: How successful is the war on drugs and do you really want the Feds to have control of "hate groups"and a war on them? Please think how it may be used against you someday. Could you or I be a hate group tomorrow?

listen to Frank Zappa

listen, feel act

 

[spacejunk]

Let me ask you just one question: How successful is the war on drugs and do you really want the Feds to have control of "hate groups"and a war on them? Please think how it may be used against you someday. Could you or I be a hate group tomorrow?

not especially, but i think the president should have been more decisive in responding to this.
i do think terrorists should be labelled as such, and think it is pretty obvious white supremacist violence is rarely called terrorism is because they are white, which is pretty messed up.
if terrorist laws are meant to protect citizens from islamist terror, why not white supremacist terror?

as for the war on drugs, we haven't seen what the trump administration has up its sleeve on that front. they've not been terribly upfront about their drugs policies.

imagine how seriously a fascist, unaccountable government would abuse the 'war on drugs'. it's already been used to criminalise millions of people that have been convenient for governments to scapegoat - especially poor folks and people of colour.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Ah, well...

Shit nothing is perfect, and Trump is not even close to a perfect president to be sure.

Would you rather have Nixon?

Oh wait I've been there and done that.

If only Bernie was on the slate for 2016... oh well

We are here, this is now.

Put your energy where it does the best.

 

[alasdairm]

...am finished with this discussion...

except for the additional posts you posted after that

alasdair

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I totally own that.

No problem

 

[Scrofula]

The idea that the car murder exonerates all of the Antifa violence because it is of a far more serious magnitude is nonsense. If Antifa subsequently drove its own bus into five people, would this in turn exonerate the sins of the first car?

Different people will have different opinions on who is at fault for this because different people attach different morality to violence. And then who is at fault in the legal sense may differ from who is at fault in the moral sense.

This has nothing to do with the latest in campus political theater. These are two separate things. The car murder doesn't exonerate OJ either.

This does not involve some abstract discussion on morality and violence. The violence we're concerned about is the murder. We don't care about your other violences.

There shouldn't be any opinions on who is directly at fault: the driver done did it. We all agree on that, right?

Te only argument here is the degree to which the US president shares fault in attempts by his staff to legitimize racist rallies like that, if not for his statements during the campaign, then his lack of statements condemning it. THe "it" being race-motivated murder.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Hmmm well if we clarify the argument to that factor it becomes much clearer.

Trump is clearly no winner here.

Clarity helps for discussion, it's hard enough in person let alone an internet forum where we cannot even look at each other to assess validation.

 

[LiquidMethod]

not especially, but i think the president should have been more decisive in responding to this.
i do think terrorists should be labelled as such, and think it is pretty obvious white supremacist violence is rarely called terrorism is because they are white, which is pretty messed up.
if terrorist laws are meant to protect citizens from islamist terror, why not white supremacist terror?

Are you going to also classify Antifa & BLM as terrorist organizations? Or is it only "terrorism" when political violence is enacted against groups that you support?

And I don't recall Obama condemning BLM when Micah Johnson, who identified with BLM, killed 5 Dallas cops. In fact he invited them to the WH
Hypocrisy!!

 

[JahSEEuS]

It's pretty simple: the person driving the car done did it.
The president who championed the driver's attitude, and refused to condemn it, shares fault.

I haven't seen Trump champion this driver's attitude. I did hear him condemn it, and all acts of violence.

these nazis are terrrorists, plain and simple.
antifascist activists only exist because of the increase in nazi trash on the streets.

this is like blaming blacks for white-supremacists.

he does share fault.

all those losers with tiki torches are trump fans, like you.
they're trump's brownshiirts.

he helped create this violent rhetoric, and emboldened all of these white supremacist fuckwits to march around on the streets bashing people.

trump, like, is apologist for these terrorists, and i don't think there is really anything to differentiate between them.
it's all the same toxic right-wing bullshit.

I see someone watches john oliver.
As far as emboldening white supremacist fuckwits to march around. I believe they've been doing it for quite some time. Just because some fuckwit supports you doesn't mean you are to blame.


@SpaceJunk - Haven't you "championed" stomping faces in with your doc martens in the past?
Were you just providing false bravado on an internet message board? Do you actually believe in violence? I can't tell.

 

[JahSEEuS]

This has nothing to do with the latest in campus political theater. These are two separate things. The car murder doesn't exonerate OJ either.

This does not involve some abstract discussion on morality and violence. The violence we're concerned about is the murder. We don't care about your other violences.

There shouldn't be any opinions on who is directly at fault: the driver done did it. We all agree on that, right?

Te only argument here is the degree to which the US president shares fault in attempts by his staff to legitimize racist rallies like that, if not for his statements during the campaign, then his lack of statements condemning it. THe "it" being race-motivated murder.

Yes, Trump could have (and imho SHOULD HAVE) been more aggressive in his verbiage condemning this particular act.