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CE&P social thread: why do the people I disagree with hate freedom so much?

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Actually... what would my dear overlords think about starting another social thread where we can actually have a "political coming out party" where we can answer a set of questions that might look like this:
What is your ideology/party affiliation?
Are you religious? what is your religion?
Are you generally anti-war?
Are you for free-markets or government intervention?
Are you pro-choice or pro-life?
Are you for globalization?
What's your take on the war on drugs?
How much crack has ebola? smoked in his lifetime? Oops! Who put that in there!?!
Are you a firm supporter of worker's rights and well-being?
What's your stance on immigration?
List some of your favorite political influences.
etc. etc.

...just a thought...
 
You don't honestly think that's how people converse, do you? When a professor is teaching a subject to a classroom of people only familiar with the basics of the course, does the professor talk as extravagantly as possible, expecting the students to ask what every new word means, or does he understand that the audience is not as versed in the subject matter as he is and speak to them in a way in which they understand? If he actually wants the students to understand what he is trying to say, he won't talk way above their heads. If he fails to engage the students, he has failed at communicating, not the students at understanding.

Truly brilliant people have attained the ability to transmit complicated concepts and feelings with utter clearity so the audience can truly be part of the communication. When this difficult task is accomplished, the language is not only understood, but becomes beautiful as it floods the mind.
 
Truly brilliant people have attained the ability to transmit complicated concepts and feelings with utter clearity so the audience can truly be part of the communication.

jeff20dunham201.jpg
 
^Ah another of ebola's crony mods arrives with a homo-erotic cult of personality style praise for his master. Ebola is certainly Chairman Mao of his forum.

someone wasn't around when PB was mod here then, yah? ;) or heaven forbid that he interacted with Heuristic! what a mess that would have been.

Care -- I wholeheartedly disagree. My mom is white from a wealthy blue blood Maryland family. My dad was a black, impoverished, southern person. PB and I certainly aren't alike. We didn't grow up near each other. I'm Muslim, he's an Atheist. We're both Southerners, I guess. Football fans. My friends come from all backgrounds. If anything I'm friends with more hispanic/native american/pacific islanders than other mulattos. I don't know how you came to any of those conclusions, they sound totally bizarre to me.
 
I think what Care is referring to is more culture than anything. A person raised outside of the culture of their race will not necessarily seek others of the same race to be around. If a person is born within a certain culture, they will naturally surround themselves primarily around others of that same culture.
 
^I also disagree with Care's statement. I have never chosen friends based on ethnicity. I don't think it it's natural at all, at least not for me. I would also argue that the concept of "race as ethnicity" is relatively recent only beginning in Germany and Western Europe in the mid to late 19th century. The word was used much before this and it meant one's family lineage, not one's ethnicity. For example in the film Bram Stoker's Dracula when Keanu Reeves is meeting with Dracula over dinner in the beginning of the movie, Dracula refers to a "a tale of my great race" meaning only his ancestors, not the entire slavic ethnicity. I just saw it a few days ago and it came to mind.
Also Historian Jacques Barzun offers more insight into this matter in his book Race: a Study in Modern Superstition

I do have my boundaries of course, but ethnicity certainly isn't one of them.

Well we haven't really seen mass interaction between races until recently, historically speaking. And since the beginning of actual relations between cultures, racism has been rampant.

Im thinking less on an individual basis and more on a aggregate level of analysis. I realize it is very possible for someone to be completely non-racist. But in general, how do you explain the fact that most people tend to associate with people of their own race?

Care -- I wholeheartedly disagree. My mom is white from a wealthy blue blood Maryland family. My dad was a black, impoverished, southern person. PB and I certainly aren't alike. We didn't grow up near each other. I'm Muslim, he's an Atheist. We're both Southerners, I guess. Football fans. My friends come from all backgrounds. If anything I'm friends with more hispanic/native american/pacific islanders than other mulattos. I don't know how you came to any of those conclusions, they sound totally bizarre to me.

Im not trying to say that everyone thinks like that. That is obviously not true. I'm saying that in most cultures it is common for people to identify more easily with people of their own race. "Racist" is probably too strong a term for what im trying to describe, in most advanced societies in this day in age the vast majority of people would never speak or act in a way that indicated they were prejudice based on race. But in general, when you look at the way things actually are, people tend to form communities and relationships with people of their own race. I think it has alot to do with social norms and upbringing.

The fact that it sounds bizarre to you shows that you indeed do not fall into this category and you put no value on a persons ethnicity, which is how everyone would be in a perfect world.
 
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While 'good leadership' is to be desired (arguing against it would be like adopting an 'anti-competence stance' or something :P), even potentially good leaders face institutional constraints which force debilitating concessions to power-elites, the latter playing a role in structuring such institutions. What is more, this prevailing framework of institutions comes to shape these leaders' dispositions, actions, and identities, corruptingly constructing 'good leadership' as a mere facade, opening the door to demagoguery.
ebola
this is an elegant paragraph that has desperately needed insight. doesn't look verbose or muddled at all.

perhaps you have a case of anti-intellectualism? :p
 
Off-topic:: F' it. I'm really bored and intoxicated, so I'll try replying to FinalRest again.


*Ebola said he is a neo-marxist (even the man whose name gave rise to such a term would be rolling in his grave)...

Actually, I said that a particular couple of my arguments drew from Neo-Marxism (taking on its forms). I find it more useful to try to draw from a variety of viewpoints, to try to synthesize a number of them into a coherent whole.

And no one person coined "neo-Marxism": it's a wide tradition that evolved organically.

who favors "esoteric" bullshit over straight forward intellectual and innovative concepts that may actually help people tackle today's political, social, and economic problems.

How do you differentiate "esoteric bullshit" from genuinely innovative concepts? Aren't esoteric concepts likely to aid one in constructing innovative frameworks by introducing new angles from which to look? I will, however, concede that I often don't hold practicality as my main goal.

Not understanding a "big wurd" or a "jargonish concept" is not a big deal since I'm on the internet and I can simply bing up what I don't understand. The real problem is that you favor certain schools of thought that come up with concepts that have no connection to reality in the sense one might try to convince me that 2+2=5.

Which frameworks am I wedded to and in what way have they either been disproved empirically or fail to connect to any relevant aspects of our world?

Also, you must be one of those lizard-people that conspiracists are warning us about because you have to flick your cyber tongue out after every sentence you make :P

er....what? :P


*Escher is also using the insult technique along with a straw man that accuses me of watching fox news. I was actually starting think Escher was recovering from his temporary case of autism and starting to make clever statements indicating he could follow a stream of thought from post to post but I guess he just proved me wrong.

'deft' analysis of validity and 'amusing' ad-homs. :P Sure you're qualified to play this game?

ebola
 
^Ah another of ebola's crony mods arrives with a homo-erotic cult of personality style praise for his master. Ebola is certainly Chairman Mao of his forum.

Er...really? Some people like some of my posts (and thank you :)), but it's not like I have a set of "cronies" who act "cult like".

Being well read and being able to mindlessly ape it back is nothing special. Guys like Bourdieu and Weber are hardly infallible if even correct in their theories.

I will admit that my arguments haven't been that original, often simply applying other authors' frameworks in a basic way. However, it's not like I take these works as holy scripture or repeat them ritualistically. The point isn't even to be concerned with their degree of correctness; rather, it is to extend and reauthor their theories in new situations.


I'm not surprised you guys jumped on the ad hominem insult train saying MFR "can't read our master's big wurdz." Oh believe me, I am all too familiar with this neo-marxist terminology and so is almost everyone else who had these marxist sociology, political science, and history professors. It's like some factory in Soviet Russia produced thousands of robots in the 70's and sent them to the US to teach university courses. There is a good chance you had one of them or their students if you went to college.

Well, then why have you been so reticent to engage the substance of your conversants' arguments?

Why this school of thought (and I use this term loosely) fails is that it can't fathom the creation of quality institutions or quality leadership.

In periods of insufficient bottom-up social upheaval, this is true of all radical opposition. Thus, because your argument applies to all sources of social change, it cannot explain flaws within the current radical left.

That's why when Chomsky shifts into his more anarchistic thought

Actually, Chomsky believes anarchism to follow directly from common-sense reasoning about society, formed prior to self-conscious theorization. Thus, his libertarian leftism is not a reaction to a lack of left-leadership

it comes out better than this recapitulation of Das Kapital we are confronted with in the Marxist school of thought. If one truly thinks so low of humans obtaining power and that the ensuing framework is doomed to being miserable, one might as well go straight to anarchy. If you constantly rail against elites and their institutions, what is the likely outcome for those who might succeed in creating Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat? You end up with dictators and party creeps who never bothered to gather an idea of what ethical and quality leadership might be.

Right, but anarchists continue to draw from other socialist frameworks (particularly those Marxist) and analyses of power in developing a theory of the history of power in the status-quo system, that anarchists oppose.

It failed with the people craving bourgeois capitalist society and hating the oppressive dictatorships that uprooted them and their traditions.

It's more that 'Marxism' failed as subjects in 'socialist' nations saw the authoritarian hypocrisy they lived under, spurring revolutionary opposition. What they wanted instead proves empirically messy and largely unknown.


So I do find it very hypocritical when these neo-marxists rail against "the bad elites" and praise the good and honest "little guys" who struggle to have somewhere to live and something to eat when these professors are themselves part of this lazy and corrupted "elite."

How are academic 'intellectuals' "elites"?


That's who the mainstream left-wing in Western politics are and we have seen how pathetically useless they have been since the Nixon days. The reason the institutional framework is doomed to corruption and a skewed idea of "efficiency" is because right now in America, it's full of "chairman ebola" type assholes and their right-wing counterparts that use their authority to make sure it remains corrupt and self serving to the "power-elites" while surrounding themselves with cronies who merely spout off this "pseudo-liberal and pseudo-addressing social need" style "demagoguery' without actually making good on their verbal commitments.

What have I committed to doing? How have I been hypocritical?

ebola
 
Pegasus said:
You don't honestly think that's how people converse, do you? When a professor is teaching a subject to a classroom of people only familiar with the basics of the course, does the professor talk as extravagantly as possible, expecting the students to ask what every new word means, or does he understand that the audience is not as versed in the subject matter as he is and speak to them in a way in which they understand? If he actually wants the students to understand what he is trying to say, he won't talk way above their heads. If he fails to engage the students, he has failed at communicating, not the students at understanding.

Agreed, but I would also assume that people don't attempt purposefully to talk extravagantly when attempting fruitful exchange. Thus, the expectation of attempt to ask for clarification in cases of mis- or lacking understanding makes sense.

ebola
 
Actually, Chomsky believes anarchism to follow directly from common-sense reasoning about society, formed prior to self-conscious theorization. Thus, his libertarian leftism is not a reaction to a lack of left-leadership
He believes it's the only way to maximize humans creative potential minus the oppressive power structures. My only problem with his ideal society is sort of the same as Foucault's critique of Chomsky, that in order to transition, it creates other forms of power structures which innately oppress to achieve goals, and opposite power structures to oppose the former.

It's more that 'Marxism' failed as subjects in 'socialist' nations saw the authoritarian hypocrisy they lived under, spurring revolutionary opposition. What they wanted instead proves empirically messy and largely unknown.

Marxism failed? When has Marxism ever been introduced?! Communism, wasn't even Communism. Respectfully that sentence was nonsense. Who knows how long that 'Communist' regime would have lasted, but the fall is largely noted to Brezhnev's stagnation and Mikhail Gorbachev's policies which began to ferment the process.

As a footnote: They knew in full their totalitarian leaders lived in hypocrisy (since it's very conception) it was even called and even named in their constitution "Dictator of the Proletariat".
 
shrooms said:
Marxism failed? When has Marxism ever been introduced?! Communism, wasn't even Communism.

See how I had "Marxism" and "socialism" in single quotes? Those denote either ironic or bastardized use of terminology. In one sense, Marxism changed the world. In another, it never escaped Marx's writings.

ebola
 
Guess who's back! And it ain't slim shady...
^Many would say that "marxism" was never implemented, and I heard this a lot at school, but I disagree. I think Mao and Lenin were good Marxists. The dictatorship of the Proletariat was the essential part of Marx's plan. True, they never achieved the "communistic harmony phase" but that was IMO a failure of Marx's plans as put forth in Capital. Marx was a very shortsighted person when it came to trying to provide a solution to his analysis of the problems with the industrial age economy. Marxism is outdated and proven to be a failure in the sense that it's method (as put forth in Capital) would never lead to anything other than a recapitulation of the bourgeois revolution i.e. Life, Liberty, and Happiness a la 1776 and 1789 type stuff that we saw the university students in Tianamen wanting. It failed a notion of History as a linear concept and repeated the revolutions that took place before Marxism, except that they were rebelling against marxists party leaders this time, not a landed aristocracy. Intellectuals and University students may not be nobility, but they are elites in society, or at least they were.
Those fortunate enough to hold full-time faculty jobs at a university must be considered elites in society becuase they can bring in over $100,000 salaries. This ain't poor working man sweat and blood 45 hrs a week making 15 bucks an hour if that. Although Pierre Bourdieu was hailed as a professor that walked out of the ivory tower and into the political arena, he didn't really make any changes. Perhaps he really into a class struggle between Academics vs. CEO's and politicians. That seems to be the struggle most academics in america focus on too without bringng results for the workers on the low ends of the economy, but of course, they are great demogogues about the whole thing trying to make it seem like they are in it to improve life for everyone. They've also been successful at generating quirky little groups of campus misfits who go out and protest but have managed to alientate themselves from the wider student populations and society at large.
I'm certainly not against socialism, but I'm sick and tired of Marxism. Socialism has existed in society since society began but marxists are the perceived owners of this concept.
I would like to see a genuinely helpful socialism instead of this "we tell you what to do socialism" that tries to introduce universal healthcare while "sin taxing" cigarettes and even some countries are "sin taxing" butter and fatty foods. Or even better, we can make people "safe" by forcing them to smoke FSC cigarettes! It seems that America's center line of politics is in love with a certain concept of socialism and thier versions of promoting social well-being. The dictatorial Stalinist Left and the Facist Right GOP. They make socialism dangerous. They both love war too. They are hooked on Zionism. I would prefer Libertarinism of the right like Ron Paul to this any day, even if it meant giving up certain state benefits.
 
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Well we haven't really seen mass interaction between races until recently, historically speaking. And since the beginning of actual relations between cultures, racism has been rampant.

Im thinking less on an individual basis and more on a aggregate level of analysis. I realize it is very possible for someone to be completely non-racist. But in general, how do you explain the fact that most people tend to associate with people of their own race?



Im not trying to say that everyone thinks like that. That is obviously not true. I'm saying that in most cultures it is common for people to identify more easily with people of their own race. "Racist" is probably too strong a term for what im trying to describe, in most advanced societies in this day in age the vast majority of people would never speak or act in a way that indicated they were prejudice based on race. But in general, when you look at the way things actually are, people tend to form communities and relationships with people of their own race. I think it has alot to do with social norms and upbringing.

The fact that it sounds bizarre to you shows that you indeed do not fall into this category and you put no value on a persons ethnicity, which is how everyone would be in a perfect world.

Well the simple fact of the matter here is that there are very distinct differences between the races. For instance, that very little percentage difference in the DNA between a black male and a white male is what makes the differences between them and makes each of them unique. Anyone who has taken a introduction course into Genetics would know this. Blacks, on average, run faster than others. This is a fact. Whites and Asians, on average, have higher I.Q.s. This is a fact. This is why things like Affirmative Action exist. The races aren't equal. But the fear of being labeled a racist suppresses logical thinking and this result is due entirely to those Communists who came here from Germany in the early 20th century and started to spread Communism all over the country. The Frankfurt school is where it all originated from.

11 main goals of the Frankfurt school to subvert the Christian-West.
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

Race plays a very big part in dividing the people and using them as a tool against eachother. It goes both ways though. You can either acknowledge that the races are different and act accordingly, OR you can possess this knowledge but use it in evil ways to promote racial strife to further your own aims. This is what is happening and has happened all over the world.
 
this is an elegant paragraph that has desperately needed insight. doesn't look verbose or muddled at all.

perhaps you have a case of anti-intellectualism? :p

Hmmm...you say elegant and much needed...I say awkward and over-played.
anti-intellectualism you say? I have no problem with people being intelligent but I don't much like intellectual elitism or the "culture of intellectualism" that surrounds it. Many of the most valuable comments and posts on bluelight CEP are not coming from those who wouldn't profess themselves to be intellectuals. When it comes to politics, I like it raw you could say. Sounding real is more important to me than coming off as super-intellectual or level-headedly cool.

Sure you're qualified to play this game? ebola
I don't know since you had banned me when you wrote this for making anti-semitic statements of poor quality that were already several days old against a poster everyone else labeled as a troll. Can I ban Escher's Waterfall from posting when I don't feel like dealing with his strawmen? Why don't you tell me about the game and its rules since you are the senior moderator?

About accusing me of using strawmen...I don't intentionally decieve people by setting up weak phony arguments and knocking them down to try to prove a point. I can hardly believe that people like Escher's waterfall actually bait me into saying things like "fuck you asshole" with that crap too. I'm highly debaitable I guess.
I do make (sometimes wild but often accurate) accusations and attack people based upon them. That's not the same as setting up straw men.
Sometimes I'm guilty of ad homs but more often it's been just flat out insults. I don't try to say "your argument is invalid because you are a _____" -- I usually just insult people for making certain arguments.

Off-topic:: F' it. I'm really bored and intoxicated, so I'll try replying to FinalRest again.
LOL....hahaha....just what have you been getting intoxicated on?

So let's get to know you a little better. How would you ideologically describe your views? If you don't mind me asking how did you vote in the last few elections and who are likely to vote for in the 2012 election?
Also, why do you think the leftists of the U.S. have been ineffectual?
 
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