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Can we judge good or bad as a species?

People are constantly arguing if humans are good or bad, but who are we to judge?

Now it is the nature of animals as far as we know to do what we have done to this planet. Until we find a species more intellectual and decide whether or not that species has done better or worse for itself than we have, we can't legitimately judge anything in this world or beyond it until we find something to compare it to.

It relates to the A Clockwork Orange idea. If you take away the good from the bad, and leave the bad, or vice versa, the one left becomes insignificant being there is nothing to compare it to. It becomes the only truth, and you will never know if what you are doing is positive or negative due to the fact that you only have one.

Judge within your knowledge, theorize outside of it.

sorry i havnt read the thread so i dont know if this has been said before, but...

i beleive we have a natural sense of good (which is one of the things that separate us from the other animals. it is a sense which transcends space or time; it is of a spiritual nature) and as for bad, the judgement as a species is a natural thing that gets distorted or forgotten as we "grow up". this "judgement" is not from knowledge though. knowledge would imply that both good and evil have existed by means of the knower, and it is this knowledge which is thrown in with that natural "judgement" that winds up skiewing that sense. that judgement is not a thing for humans to decide or control, it is something we can sense through our other senses like satisfaction (but not physical satisfaction, that kind of satisfaction that is acheived through living a concept and receiving its benifit... like filling a hole in your heart that no ammount of money could cure sort of thing). it is learned through living and interacting with the forces behind reality that set the methods we must use to acheive a state of oneness with that judging force.
interestingly enough that force is set up in such a way that it amplifies itself through the judging process if you catch on (and we were cought on but let ourselves off, this is the same thing i was talking about before, that natural sense). and that judging force is the same force which drives foward the reactions of every living thing. form and function and a mind with the ability to connect the symbolism of it all in such a way as to be able to communicate directly and in harmony with the creator of it all.
its quite poetic actually...
 
This is unacceptable behavior
it's the behaviour of someone answering to both threads at once at 5:30 a.m.

threads which share both some posters and overlapping points

so sorry. i don't even know which one i'm answering to, i just know what post i'm replying to

I send you my answers via a pm, it is the right thing to do
congratulations
you're the first one to ever do this. you're doing the right thing
thank you for telling us how it works


to not hijack peoples' threads, for private argument!
i'll check the other thread and your pm later, but in this one, i don't see any hijacking
(that's why i'm still answering this post in the thread)

actually i do : when you comment on my way of answering rather than reply to the points themselves
(that's why i should be answering to it by pm. but i still do it here to save time in case similar criticism raises from someone else)


the thread has moved a different direction because the question the op asked relied on the false idea that good and bad were objective judgements

what don't you like about setting the op's question straight?
it's in his/her interest too

it is Self Absorbsion, to takes other poster's posts, and think that everything is about you!!
sorry if i incorrectly did that

where did i do it?


if i wrote something and people replied to it, how is it self absorption to address those posts?

to argue my points, i give examples that i'm familiar with
i'm not fond of bringing my personal case forward (check my post history if you wish), but here, it fit the points well in my opinion

would you prefer me to talk about things that i don't know (which would give the same kind of results as you inventing that vegetarianism needs a larger land surface than an omnivorous diet)?

or pretend to agree?

or not answer to the questions that you asked me?

it would be quite "disrespectful" to you not to answer your questions (about examples taken from my personal experience), wouldn't it?

and a bit of paranoia there, since I did not relate you to Jesus!
someone did. don't remember who. like i said i don't really look at the names
it seemed to me that there was a good chance you were refering to this
if not, and since you say it was an exchange with shakti, why did you call him "my friend jesus"?

The last 3 quotes you made, is a conversation between Shakti and me, so please, don't mishandle things
if you don't want others to comment on your posts, don't post them on a forum

what's the point of a thread if you can't participate?
there is no "2 persons' exchange only" rule
during a good part of the thread, i was actually putting my nose in shakti and moonyham's exchange

i'll read and answer you pm later, now i need to sleep, sorry
 
We can judge right and wrong. Not only can we, but we can't stop. Discerning good from bad is essential and intrinsic to every single task we perform.
??

i think organized religion is "bad/wrong" (not to say evil)
religious people think that it is "good/right"

who is right?
who is wrong?

... is anyone actually either right or wrong?
 
We are all right to degrees, we are all wrong to degrees. You cannot expect absolute answers to relativistic questions.
 
Silence is golden when most appropriate!....
(but in the end I didn't keep it, I broke my own rule MY APOLOGIES to the thread)

You know VEGAN, sometimes I get in, when my good sense tells me not to, either to rescue someone you or others have isolated and attacked or simply I was on a mood for posting and nothing else was around that evokes, yet my good sense was telling me not to, since I see a particular tone or behavior. I won't respond further to your comments, and leave it at that! I Won't make a mountain out of a molehill!

I will say to your credit though, that in this last post you behaved nicely and even the things you say, have some rational as well as a blend of feeling and thought of the other person in some ways and liked it better then your other posts, you even said sorry somewhere? Now that is something worth the reading!! there is feeling in there and you lost that coldness that is somewhat chilling as if the real person is missing in there! That is very positive, and good to see you in that light!

PS...in reference to calling Shakti "my friend Jesus" it was a bit of linguistic fun share there,....and I will state one more thing here, that may challenge you ...but I dare you to keep cool and not react! .....I have come to view that vegetarians miss out on tht spontaneous, verbal fun of the turn of the word.....I have seen that on you! Now don't go shooting me for this!! Take things a little lighter you might engage in some fun and play!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, some responses to your comments, I could have added some more but I won't!


(In regards to the larger amounts of land needed if everyone turn vegetarian.:Do the mathematics differently, not how the Vegan society likes to express it.)
Second Opininon:http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

You only need a very small portion of meat, in comparison to the huge amounts of vegetarian proper combination of fudstuff to get the apropriate nutrients, especially the essential amino acids vitamins and minerals.

QUOTE:[[[congratulations you're the first one to ever do this. you're doing the right thing
thank you for telling us how it works----------response>>>THE RIGHT THING FOR ME!!!!]]]

QUOTE: [[[actually i do : when you comment on my way of answering rather than reply to the points themselves
(that's why i should be answering to it by pm. but i still do it here to save time in case similar criticism raises from someone else)

>>>Duh!! This is why I answered it in a pm myself....interesting how you criticise then you come to see the real reason;your mouth is faster then your awareness!

^^^
Ooooops.....i could not help myself!
But...You are like a one way train!

There is a lot that you say above also that does not make sense!
 
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Look i use to hate on vegans. I thought it was stupid, waste of time, making yourself suffer for no reason and so on but at the end of the day, its better to be part of the solution than part of the problem. I wouldnt say eating meat is wrong, but the way we go about it sure is. Factory farming, battery cages, over-milking and so on.. its all pretty fucked up. Thats not to say i dont eat meat and eggs and copious amounts of milk, but at the end of the day i know it would be better for this planet if i didnt... i just choose to be an ignorant fool in the mean time. I know ill turn vegetarian eventually, i can just feel it... slowly over time the thought of becoming vegetarian/vegan has become more and more acceptable to my ideals and set of 'morals' and the amount of substitutes and food's available for vegans is getting bigger and bigger so its becoming less shit to become one.

I mean, humans may well be omnivores by nature, afterall we do have carnivorous teeth in our mouth.. but the way we get our meat IS NOT NATURAL. If you want to go out and hunt a duck, blanch it, pluck it, cook it, then eat it.. GO HARD i dont have a problem with that what so ever... but when people raise birds in tiny ass cages and dont let them see light for the rest of there lives, then i do have a problem, that shit aint natural and its sick - just put yourself in those animals shoes/hooves na saiyan.
 
Look i use to hate on vegans. I thought it was stupid, waste of time, making yourself suffer for no reason and so on but at the end of the day, its better to be part of the solution than part of the problem. I wouldnt say eating meat is wrong, but the way we go about it sure is. Factory farming, battery cages, over-milking and so on.. its all pretty fucked up. Thats not to say i dont eat meat and eggs and copious amounts of milk, but at the end of the day i know it would be better for this planet if i didnt... i just choose to be an ignorant fool in the mean time. I know ill turn vegetarian eventually, i can just feel it... slowly over time the thought of becoming vegetarian/vegan has become more and more acceptable to my ideals and set of 'morals' and the amount of substitutes and food's available for vegans is getting bigger and bigger so its becoming less shit to become one.

I mean, humans may well be omnivores by nature, afterall we do have carnivorous teeth in our mouth.. but the way we get our meat IS NOT NATURAL. If you want to go out and hunt a duck, blanch it, pluck it, cook it, then eat it.. GO HARD i dont have a problem with that what so ever... but when people raise birds in tiny ass cages and dont let them see light for the rest of there lives, then i do have a problem, that shit aint natural and its sick - just put yourself in those animals shoes/hooves na saiyan.
moonyham, I understand what you are saying and respect your views, and personally do not have a hate on vegans, you have that wrong, I was a vegan myself.

I totally agree with you, it is a choice, and whether you follow vegetarian nutrition, one needs to look at the pros and cons and take consideration the combination needed. I know both and also the stress chemicals that are induced if the animals are not killed humanely for consumption, which also affect, but remember that there are pros and cons in everything. The nervous system is also affected badly on a pure vegan diet. Psychologically the person is also affected. Balance is the key to everything in life.

I am a third generation vegetarian, and hence naturally I followedtrained to be a vegetarian/alternative nutrition-nitritionist at first. I understand the health benefits and as well as limitations of vegetarian nutrition. I gave it all up, 8 years ago, when under long working hour and stressful conditions of working/study regime, I could not combine properly the essential elements that vegetarian nutrition lacks and needs proper planning and preperation, so at some stage I fell quite ill, and my doc placed me urgently on red meat diet, to recover quick. I have never gone back to vegetarianism, but I do balance food and eat mibrobiotic food when I can.

If it comes down to an argument, yes we were born with canine teeth and suited for both tearing meat and grind nuts etc.
In the large Sahara dessert where they cannot grow crops, their diets are consisted mostly of meat.
Our stomach's production of hydrochloric acid, is something not found in herbivores. HCL activates protein-splitting enzymes. Further, the human pancreas manufactures a full range of digestive enzymes to handle a wide variety of foods, both animal and vegetable.

When you get down to it, most animals, including humans, are naturally suited for eating other animals. It is clearly possible to have a healthy diet without any meat, but it's often a lot harder.

You need a very carefull combination of nutients to keep healthy, certain essential elements our body does not manufacture and need to find in foodstuff which pure vegetarian nutrition does not contain unless very carefully combined.


Cons

* A plant-based diet may lack some vitamins and minerals, unless a wide variety of fruits and vegetables are included in it.
* Vitamin B12, largely found in meat, is not present in a vegetarian diet. This vitamin is essential for converting protein, fats and carbohydrates into energy.
* A plant-based diet lacks Vitamin D, a very essential nutrient.
* According to diet experts, children raised as vegetarians will not get enough nutrients, especially iron, zinc, copper, Vitamin D & Vitamin B12.
* Finding a good source of protein in plant-based diet is difficult.
* Meat is a good source of essential amino acids. A plant-based diet cannot provide as much amino acids as found in non-veg.
* Each of the 9 essential amino acids is not found in vegetarian diets. Inadequacy of this may result in tiredness, moodiness - due to the fluctuation in blood sugar levels, lack of motivation and poor performance at work or during exercise.
* Vegetables and fruits are not best sources of iron and calcium. Moreover, most of the vegetarians have to take supplement to fulfill their daily requirements of both the minerals, unlike those who eat non-veg.

It was something that I read in the post of of the person which it encouraged me to place some views across, I had more a problem with sadistic aggression, which is denied, where as my comments were to bring some awareness there. It was all on another post but the author brought it over to this post. It is not a problem just placed my views and responded to the comments.

I respect how each person chooses to live, and their views, but when we are attacked and placed in a position where we are more or less called ignorant then it asks for more then that. I am not trying to prove anything, just replied to the comments.

Thank you for the addressing of the issue
The person commented that he likes comments and having an argument. That is what I did.

Warm regards
LITM
 
For something to be a con its got to be unavoidable. Like, the pros of prison are that you get food cooked for you every single day.. the cons of prison is that you live in a tiny ass cell. That con is unavoidable therefore it is a con.

What you called con's are 'possible'. You can avoid them if you 'do it properly' and thus they arent 'cons of the vegan diet', more like 'cons of a unbalanced vegan diet'.

I mean, if you want you're diet to be 100% vegan, and you want it to be completely balanced and working for you and your body, then that is most definitely possible. So the argument that 'its bad for you' or that you cant get the right nutrients your body needs, is invalid.
 
i think organized religion is "bad/wrong" (not to say evil)
religious people think that it is "good/right"

who is right?
who is wrong?

... is anyone actually either right or wrong?

Well, as Shakti said, our actions as human beings have varying degrees of moral "righteousness" if you will. Noone is totally Right nor is anyone totally Wrong.

However, this righteousness, I believe, is objective. Therefore, yes, some people are more "right" than others. Let's take a look at how moral justification works. An action that is "right" has a maximally positive consequence for the entirety of conscious, emotional life on earth (the entire universe even). An action that is purely "wrong" has a maximally negative consequence.

Now, there's dispute as to what exactly "positive" and "negative" mean - some suggest that the maximization of the collective ratio of pleasure to pain in conscious life is positive (take the reciprocal of that ratio and you've got negativity), while others suggest that minimizing pain is the ultimate goal (if there's a term for this philosophical view, Jamshyd'll know!). However most people will agree that the emotion experienced by conscious life has intrinsic value.

The precise definition of the positivity/negativity dichotomy aside, one person can objectively be more right than another simply by the consequences of their actions. Similarly, the righteousness of an idea or an "ethical principle" is determined by the average positivity that results from putting it into action.
 
I could have sworn I posted in this thread.

To answer the OP..

No, I do not believe we can judge good and bad as a species, because in reality there is no such thing as "good" or "bad". We only experience things as good or bad while stuck within the limitations of the ego mind. And that experience is different for everyone.
 
^but you're using ego to deny ego. Reaffirming it as you try to discredit it.
 
I never denied the ego. All of us are trapped within the limitations of the ego mind while we are alive. That's my point. We see things the way we see things. We see things in terms of good or bad, pleasurable or painful, etc. I see things this way myself. But I also recognize that the way I experience things isn't neccessarily reality, it's just my warped view being stuck in a human body. :)
 
I didn't mean you were denying the existence of ego, but rather the validity of ego. Sorry if I wasn't being clear.

But you were denying the validity of ego's perceptions. Sure, it is true that it is limited partial and finite, but there is no way to criticize ego without employing ego. So, yes as you say, "We see things in terms of good or bad, pleasurable or painful, etc.", but there is no way for you to legitimately say "in reality there is no such thing as "good" or "bad"" based on it being an aspect of ego because you must remember who is speaking, ego. You have no perspective outside of ego, none of us do. There is no way for you to discredit the legitimacy of ego perspectives, because to do so would require that you reserve an ego perspective that you consider legitimate. Does this make sense?
 
Hmm. Yes it does make sense. Let me ask you this though, do you think it's possible for a person to get to a spiritual state, whether through meditation, dreams, drug use, etc. Where they experience "ego death" and do have a perspective outside of the ego? (or at least, farther out)

I ask because I have had a few experiences where I stopped being "me", through intense meditation. I mean, yes to some degree I was still trapped in the human body and everything, but during these experiences I was so detached from any idea of my own person (or humanity all together) and it was a very enlightening experience. While in this state (it was sorta like a trance) I saw things in a whole new way, and there was no "good" or "bad". It was strange, like looking at the world from a completely alien perspective.

So I disagree that we can never have any perspective outside ego, because I do believe, in my own spirituality, that all of us have a higher "self" (actually, this is what I believe to be God, or "big mind")which we can connect to and will give us that outside perspective.
 
Deja, it is entirely possible to experience beyond ego. I've been fortunate enough to be graced with such experiences on a few occasions as well. But if there is still differentiated perspective, if there is still limits to the experience there is still a degree of ego involved. Perspective is Ego. You must remember that all form that we experience is a construct of the human body/mind/soul. To experience beyond this is not a perspective. In fact it is very difficult to say what it is, because it is beyond our ego's ability to grasp. That being said, it is the one singular thing that I am entirely certain of. Higher Self and God are two very common terms for it, but as I'm sure you know, cannot begin to impart what it is.

What is really interesting to me is that the experience of God and Ego at first seem to be mutually exclusive. Yet as our understanding and realization progresses continual direct apprehension of God can be incorporated within our everyday waking state. It is something like 'The Redemption of Ego'. This is the non-dual state. I suspect you understand what that means when you use terms like 'big mind'.
 
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