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Can the soul die?

capstone

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I'm sitting contemplating the consciousness and the soul the right now on a myriad of good drugs, but one question is kinda bugging me. Under some unknown set of circumstances, can the soul die? I'm talking both figuratively and literally. Suppose a weapon could be devised that would reduce energy into basic waveform parts. When a person sells their soul to the system in order to make more money than they could ever need, could they truly lose that spark that makes them whatever the soul makes us?

And what about psychopaths? Do these people ever have, for lack of a better term, souls?

There's a lot of implicational questions, which is why I thought it would be decent topic. :)
 
Any philosopher says no. the reasoning is as simple as it is complex: No human being desires the absolute evil for himself (say, eternal, exponentially increasing suffering). Any individual knows that he is a human being. because of that, he can distinguish other human beings, through say 'likeness'. they are akin to himself, but, with one important difference: he does not have direct access to another human beings experiencing of the world. Thus, anothers happiness or pain is not his own. Yet, he knows them as fellow human beings, in extremis (skepticism) they may just be figments of his imagination (brain in a vat). It is through this reasoning the mind can take distance of suffering as 'not his own'. Thus, should you be absolutely insensitive to any empathy whatsoever, you could kill every other human being and still tell yourself that it is, in some crooked way, good. You can even kill yourself, and take an extremely painful route (though even psychopaths start to hesitate here), and still believe it is for the best (ie. this side is or has become untenable, lets go to the other side, can't be worse then here). Now, imagine, that for some reason, you have gained an absolutely certain vision, ie. the belief is inescapable, that killing yourself, or any other deed you may want to pose, has a 100% causal connection to the result 'eternal exponentially increasing suffering'. your being would infinitly implode upon itself. but the point is, hard as you may try, that this situation is actually completely unimaginable (for starters, because we cannot have any certainty whatsoever regarding what death is). therefor, the philosopher concludes; the soul will always have an escape route, narrow as it may be, in its figuring that somehow there is something good, both in act as in consequence, in whatever it does, skewed as the 'reasoning' behind it may have become, in the case of a psychopath.

so in short, no, the soul cannot die, because it is indivisible insofar that it is good and that it seeks the good. How it does that, is its own freedom and responsability, and is thus open to moral judgement.
 
ah don't you just love the first spring days, taking a break from everything and anyone for a few days, contemplating, having a brew, and just sharing ones silly meanderings to the great internet world of fleetingness :) no stress :p

oo nearly forgot my pipe. classy =D
 
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Simple answer, no. "Soul" is a word that has a different definition depending on who you talk to, which is a problem. To me, "Soul" is the real you.. "you" at the deepest level. And that happens to be pure awareness, which can never die.. it exists outside of space and time and just "is".

So don't worry. Be happy :)
 
I also don't think a soul can be destroyed for very similar reasons to the above posters.

Can a soul become eternally entangled with the 'dark side?' Become so consumed with hate, anger, greed, that the eternal spark of love is forever muffled by the dampening effect of such emotions?
 
i'm glad you brought this up, capstone. i've been meaning to ask you about something you posted a while back. i distinctly recall you noting something like "only a nuclear weapon can detroy a soul", and have been wondering where you got this from.
 
thoughts can arise from material systems, like groups of neurons or transistors. these systems regulate themselves with emotions, and that can happen in both neuron systems and transistor systems... aka, what we call emotional influence to thought is just a part of thought itself, and any robot can use (but not "feel") emotions. any robot can have memories, as well.

but we don't only use our thoughts/emotions/memories, we "experience" some of them... whatever component of us does that, is what i'd call the "soul."

as far as i know, it isn't a "material" thing (that is, what we've studied so far cannot grasp it objectively, and we've yet to have a "soul in a test tube." neither chemistry nor physics can study a soul).

therefore we have no idea if a soul can be destroyed. or what might happen to it when its body dies. but i think that humanity does have a chance at figuring it out, and studying it, and answering this question, given enough time.
 
By dampening effect on the soul, I mean the overall perspective or inclination a soul may develop through experiencing the negative qualia. I don't think a soul has emotions, that's what the body is for, but these emotions may shape a soul in someway, maybe.
 
its mere existence is no more then a presupposition necessary for replying to this thread =D any definition beyond that i refer to ^, but once presupposed, its indivisibility necessitates it being ultimately good. gotta love absolutes
 
What's a soul?
my working definition: one part of it includes the section of cognition (thoughts feelings memories etc) that is "experienced." that's about all i really know about the soul, ultimately. that and my suspicion that no current model can explain the experience itself, even as an emergent phenomenon.
is it not just a construct, an idea ?
what isn't?
 
(for starters, because we cannot have any certainty whatsoever regarding what death is)
What is death but the lack of life? Before we were born we lacked life.

you would describe your soul as consciousness which is just our perception of good and bad. i recall before i was born there was just nothingness, nothing else. There was no conciousness and therefore there was no soul. I hereby draw the conclusion that there would be no soul after either.

Maybe if we describe conciousness as an extension of the soul, that could be changed... For example the soul is our being, and conciousness is just one dream, one reality created by your soul. When you dream you dont remember what came before, the beginning of that dream is where your conciousness began. Our souls just created this dream and they lie outside of this realm. Something from within this reality could not drestroy something external to it, something not bound by the same laws of physics. A product of the dream cannot destroy the dreamer =). I rather like this analogy xD.

how i would define soul: creator
edit: #2 definition of soul: interpreter --- perhaps the soul's purpose is to decode the matrix into a given reality, a reality we can sense.

the problem with trying to define soul is that it has to be applicable when there is nothingness, given that before death and after death there is nothingness. for example there can't be good and bad in nothingness...
 
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but we don't only use our thoughts/emotions/memories, we "experience" some of them... whatever component of us does that, is what i'd call the "soul."
fyi the orbitofrontal cortex is what feels and evaluates emotion, the ventro-medial-prefrontal cortex is where emotion breaks into conciousness. we dont experience memories, we just recall them and we create and experience our thoughts with our frontal lobe.
 
no, i don't describe the soul as consciousness. consciousness implies reflection (self-awareness), for which, as you describe in your analogy, a duality of active-passive is needed. in other words, something other to yourself is needed to reflect yourself back to yourself, therefor making it your own. this is the process of knowing ('Ereignis', literally translates to: 'making something your own', to lend a concept from Heidegger). this root of self-consciousness is what can be called (conscious) ex-istence (derived from latin, litt. 'to stand-out'; in other words, 'a given that has always already been directed at something'. Once the soul is presupposed, and since we are not conscious of it as existing, the conclusion is that it is indivisible. as such, the soul would be 'a before before the before' ad infinitum, if that makes sense.

Why do i say that is is good? this Good is platonic in nature, it is not to be confused with the divisible duality of good and bad. rather, it is a higher synthesis of both in ontology. ontology does not know good or bad, for that would turn it into what Heidegger calls ontotheology. He disavows of that because the personal point of view is entered into an ontology, therefor robbing it of generalized abstraction, ie. it would cease to be a representational framework; as opposed to an opinion. Platonic 'Good' is the totality of the good-bad duality before any actual (ontic) judgement is made regarding it. (in Heideggers system, 'ontic' refers to actuality; while ontological refers to the theoretical-representational, the 'working mechanism', if you will. a representation of something is not how something actually appears in actuality, it marks the difference between an actual can of soda, and you imagining a can of soda in your mind.)

Why do we name it Good, and not Bad then, you might ask. well, that reasoning is in my first post in this thread. to reiterate; once the self-consciousness has entered the scene, it simply cannot imagine for itself (thus it cannot 'ereig' or take posession of) the reflection of itself to itself as ultimate evil. hard as you may try, you cannot seriously mean that you want infinite exponentially increasing pain without end for yourself, given that this has become a true possibility that lay before you.

i'll also point out a problem with your recollection of nothingness: given that you can recall 'it', it means it has a space and time, and therfor, its not (or no longer) nothingness. one cannot define nothingness in terms of itself, for when you image it, you already rely on somethingness, which you attempt to deny in its totality. you see, this 'split' is already given even in the word nothingness itself, namely no-thing-ness. since its definition relies on a duality that reflects itself back to itself in order to frame it, it has already become a something the minute you became conscious of it, because that is what consciousness is, to hold something within a frame of opposites in your mind. The singularity that the soul would be is only known through a 'trace' (famous concept of Derridas), a kind eerie pointer that cannot be grasped; like a dog chasing its own tail. and there we stumble on the limit of thought. In the history of philosophy, all of this can be traced back over Kants Copernican revolution and his Schemata, to Descartes dualism and the mark of infinity, and beyond..

and I like the dream analogy as well, its a good one. I remember also using it (in my own words of course) when trying to frame some of the big philosophers concepts when they try to refer to the unspeakable of Being in those endlessly complex tomes of them :) still do really, its a very viable analogy
 
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fyi the orbitofrontal cortex is what feels and evaluates emotion, the ventro-medial-prefrontal cortex is where emotion breaks into conciousness. we dont experience memories, we just recall them and we create and experience our thoughts with our frontal lobe.
based on? emotional processing and cognition and memory storage are distributed through most of the entire brain...
 
No, the soul cannot die. The soul is transcendental to both the mind and the body. In the Bhagavad-Gita, which is the direct word of god, Lord Shri Krishna, He states that:

"Those with the vision of eternity can see that the soul is transcendental, eternal and beyond the modes of material nature. In spite of his contact with the material body, O Arjuna, he is not doing anything, nor is he entangled." (Bhagavad-gita, ch.13, line 32.)

"Never was there a time when i did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be" ( Bhagavad-gita, ch. 2, kube 12)

"That which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul" ( Bhagavad gita, ch. 2, line 17)

"For thew soul there is never birth, nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain" (bhagavad gita ch 2, line 20)

"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same" (bhagavad gita, ch 2. lines 23-24)


I hope that helps :)
 
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