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Stimulants Can seratonin mask dopamine?

soneal97

Greenlighter
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
39
I think I may finally understand where my disappointment with methamphetamine lies. I always loved ecstasy when I was younger, and I considered it the ultimate love drug. That is, love directed outward. Afterwards, I fell in love with cocaine, but quickly came to consider it the exact opposite of ecstasy. When sufficiently high, I was too busy loving myself to feel any warmth towards anyone else. Seemed very edgy to me, but in an amazing, godly kind of way. By far the more addictive. And then meth... a drug that several people I knew informed me was much stronger and much longer lasting. So I tried it, only to be disappointed. Seemed so much more well rounded, less "edgy" and "dangerous" (referring to myself on it, that is). Now the one thing that cocaine does is affirm the ego via dopamine release. That's it. I loved it. I wouldn't say it made me a condescending jerk like it did a couple of my buddies, but there was definitely a conscious elitism in my head. A brazen assertiveness I picked up that occasionally caught the attention of those around me. And then meth.. I always complained that I couldn't feel the dopamine during the high, the ego-boost I longed for. I won't deny that it gives me self-confidence, but it always seemed underwhelming.

But what does meth do that cocaine doesn't? Seratonin. Warmth. Outward love. I'll talk all night, but the conversations are somewhere between ecstasy and coke. Not all lovey dovey, but far from aggressive or in your face. They feel more natural. Certainly able to express and assert myself (which I do have a problem with sober, I must admit), but feels more corrective, overall. I AM a sympathetic person, and I think the seratonin really kicks this in even with all the dopamine in my head. Coke went too far to be merely corrective. Not just fine with myself, but damn prideful and better than you, as well. And I think that's the part that became so addictive to me. Could there be anything to this?
 
I dont get what your asking? Theyre different drugs. You cant expect meth to be like coke on mdma. Everyone reacts to things differently and ime meth isnt very emotional. Its kinda like mdma the first time or two but it gets soul-less very fast. I find you connect with other people on meth really well for parts of the high but its a weird drug.
 
can serotonin mask dopamine?

in a word: no.
these are two different chemicals in your brain that do two totally different things. they are, however, grouped in the same category, generally as the "happy" chemicals. dopamine is a 'fight or flight' chemical and is basically the 'reward' and 'pleasure' chemical. serotonin is also related to pleasure, but moreso overall mood, sleep and appetite regulation.

in reference to meth vs. cocaine - well, they're two completely different drugs.
Methamphetamine

-Stimulant
-Man-made
-Smoking produces a long-lasting high
-50% of drug is removed from the body in 12 hours
-Increases dopamine release and blocks dopamine re-uptake
Limited medical use

Cocaine

-Stimulant and local anesthetic
-Plant-derived
-Smoking produces a brief high
-50% of the drug is removed from the body in 1 hour
-Blocks dopamine re-uptake
-Limited use as a local anesthetic in some surgical procedures


...and the main difference between cocaine and methamphetamine vs. mdma, is the release of oxytocin. oxytocin produces feelings of trust and closeness. on a side note, oxytocin, in many recent studies, has been shown to alleviate many addiction symptoms to different drugs; specifically cocaine.
 
^Whaaaat?! got any links on the oxytocin release from mdma/and its addiction relieving properties? Im really interested in that
 
Can serotonin "mask" dopamine?

Well, dopamine and serotonin need to be in the right balance for your brain to be satisfied. Too much of one can outweigh the effects of the other. Anatomical and pharmacological evidence suggests that the dorsal raphe serotonin system and the ventral tegmental and substantia nigra dopamine system may act as mutual opponents, in effect "canceling out" much the other's effects when the level of one is raised. And animal studies have shown that a lot of serotonin can decrease generation of dopaminergic neurons, and a lack of serotonin can increase generation. So I would say yes.
 
meth has a lot more differences from other drugs then "serotonin". it is still primarily a very powerful norepinephrine-dopamine releaser.

cocaine has less to do with dopamine release than you may expect. it actually inhibits the reuptake of all 3 monoamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. it increases postsynaptic concentrations of these in a different manner than meth/amp/mdma do.

there is also a growing amount of evidence that suggests that the "high" of amphetamines is not neccesarily linked to exclusively monoamine release, and there may be some other effects of amp administration on, for instance, the glutamate/opioid systems.
 
I just don't understand what the problem is, then. No matter how much meth I ingest, I can still have honest conversations and critique myself with a friend. I can put myself at fault. I can recognize reality. On coke, I'm perfect, the world is perfect. Problems don't exist until I come down. It's more of a complete delusion. But meth.. no. My emotions can change. I'm sympathetic. I can actually experience negative feelings. And it's always been like that. I don't find it to be nearly as addictive. But do coke.. and wham. Just what I want. How can those two be affecting my brain so differently?
 
meth has a lot more differences from other drugs then "serotonin". it is still primarily a very powerful norepinephrine-dopamine releaser.

cocaine has less to do with dopamine release than you may expect. it actually inhibits the reuptake of all 3 monoamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. it increases postsynaptic concentrations of these in a different manner than meth/amp/mdma do.

there is also a growing amount of evidence that suggests that the "high" of amphetamines is not neccesarily linked to exclusively monoamine release, and there may be some other effects of amp administration on, for instance, the glutamate/opioid systems.

I was also under the impression that with meth specifically that the way it crosses the blood brain barrier allows it to avoid exposure to monoamines, which in turn increases its duration of effect. And because of how quickly and for how long it can remain in the brain, its creation of things like peroxides is part of what adds to the brain damage it can cause? I also saw somewhere that using NMDA antagonists can cause amphetamine and methamphetamine tolerance to build more slowly, due to the way it effects dopamine regulation?


^They are different drugs that is why they effect you different. Meth isnt some super insane crazy high. Its only really crazy when youve been up for a few days and the shadows start moving and spawning colours. On meth im very empathetic most of the time. On coke im just jacked up
 
^^Because drugs have different and complex mechanisms of action and everyone's brain is unique and we humans only have a very basic understanding/theory about what different drugs and different neurotransmitters even do.
 
It can't be that underwhelming of a drug. For me, coke beat the hell out of ecstasy. And meth is said to be more addictive than coke. Most of the time for me, though, x would put meth to shame. I don't even get the comedowns I would expect from depleting those receptors.
 
I think I'm getting weak stuff, and maybe a lot of friends are, too. But that's what they expect. Because they just seem to accept the effects like they are nothing. Cocaine was scarily good. This stuff just doesn't EVEN feel that addictive, even it if is.
 
Yeah that was something I was going to point out, with street drugs who knows the quality/purity of what you're getting. However it's also important to remember that a drug can affect different people VERY differently.
 
Meth feels fucking great you can do anything for hours, and you can literally find pleasure in the most mundane tasks. But its a sneaky bitch. You dont get as fucked the first few times ime, but as it wears off and you dont feel as bad as the terrible stories you hear you figure its not so bad. Then you keep doing it and a few bowls turns into non stop bowls and bumps, losing weekends, hell whole weeks. Then you feel bad. Thats when the crash is pretty shitty, but it still isnt too bad if you can eat, take vitamins and catch short naps. Sometimes i think i got shitty ass dope, but then i look back at my behavior and realize i was spun the fuck out but i just didnt think i was. Seems like with ice experiences from the same shit can vary so much, its all in your head.
 
See. Some people make statements like the above. Some people say a hit of good dope has paralyzed them with euphoria. A couple of friends have said it can be better than crack. On coke, I don't have to question whether I'm high. I can't stop smiling, and I'm out of character. I can do powder after being up on ice for three days, and suddenly I'm actually high as I want to be. Night and day. But I think I may have had some dope every once in a while that equalled cocaine. Very very rarely. I've even shot up a good amount of dope to no avail. I get sleepy as from a rush, but no rush. I feel that if it were affecting me properly, no way in hell would I be able to get such a dazzling and overshadowing coke high after I've been smoking meth all night. Makes me forget about the meth, honestly.
 
Haha. Maybe. But I just wish I knew why. I thought both drugs worked on the reward system, thus ego. Therefore, where is my God complex? Even the sexual quality is missing. I feel focused and bodily euphoric. At times, I think it even manages to bring my mood DOWN
 
I was also under the impression that with meth specifically that the way it crosses the blood brain barrier allows it to avoid exposure to monoamines, which in turn increases its duration of effect. And because of how quickly and for how long it can remain in the brain, its creation of things like peroxides is part of what adds to the brain damage it can cause? I also saw somewhere that using NMDA antagonists can cause amphetamine and methamphetamine tolerance to build more slowly, due to the way it effects dopamine regulation?

Neurobiology
Methamphetamine affects the central nervous system (CNS) by releasing monoamine neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.
Administration of MA leads to many pharmacological effects due to its ability to use various molecular processes.
MA increases levels of monoamines by forcing the monoamines out of their storage vesicles and expelling them into the synaptic gap by making the dopamine transporters work in reverse.
Other mechanisms by which methamphetamine are known to increase monoamine levels are by:

-Blocking the reuptake of monoamines by inhibiting the activity of monoamine transporters
-Decreasing the expression of dopamine transporters at the cell surface
-Increasing cytosolic levels of monoamines by inhibiting the activity of monoamine oxidase (MAO)
-Increasing the activity and expression of the dopamine-synthesizing enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase (TH)
-In addition to releasing potent amounts of monoamines, MA has a high lipid solubility that leads to a relatively fast transfer of the drug across the blood brain barrier.

Metabolism

The liver is primarily responsible for the breakdown of MA. The drug undergoes oxidation and glucuronidation in the liver creating amphetamine, norephedrine, and p-hydroxynorephedrine. The oxidation of MA to amphetamine is partly done by cytochrome P-450 (CYP) isoenzyme 2D6. The elimination half-life (t-1/2) of MA is dependent on the urine pH. When urine pH is six to eight, the half-life is about 12 hours, staying constant and unaffected by the route of administration.

source: http://methoide.fcm.arizona.edu/infocenter/index.cfm?stid=166

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^Whaaaat?! got any links on the oxytocin release from mdma/and its addiction relieving properties? Im really interested in that

The hormone oxytocin — known as the “love drug” or “cuddle chemical” — plays an important role in pair-bonding, child-rearing and social behavior. Now researchers are discovering that it could also help explain the effects of a popular party drug, and may be involved in some potential treatments for autism and addiction.

Here’s a rundown of some of the latest research findings:

1. The ecstasy–oxytocin link. Researchers have found that the loved-up effects of ecstasy (MDMA) are due at least in part to oxytocin. “Administration of MDMA increases plasma oxytocin levels in humans,” says Gillinder Bedi, Columbia University assistant professor of clinical psychology and lead author of new research on the effects of MDMA and methamphetamine.

The oxytocin–MDMA link has also been shown in rats, according to Iain McGregor, professor of psychopharmacology at the University of Sydney. “We were able to get rid of a big part of the social behavior induced by MDMA [by blocking oxytocin],” he says. “What was striking was the big reduction in social [facilitation] — but it was not a complete abolition.”

2. Using oxytocin to battle addiction? In Bedi’s recent study, he found that methamphetamine and MDMA were surprisingly alike in terms of their social effects (surprising, because users on meth are typically thought of as cold and compulsive, rather than warm and fuzzy like users of ecstasy), at least when the methamphetamine was given orally at low doses. It turns out, however, that oxytocin is not the common denominator between the two drugs — MDMA may increase oxytocin, while methamphetamine may not affect it directly.

In previous rat studies, researchers have found that the release of oxytocin is not involved in the high of amphetamine (whose effects are more similar to those of methamphetamine than MDMA’s are) — and that blocking the hormone had no effect on rats’ desire for the drug. Conversely, blocking oxytocin did decrease rats’ interest in MDMA, suggesting that the hormone may be involved in ecstasy’s “high.”

But, interestingly, increasing oxytocin may reduce desire for meth. McGregor found that giving rats oxytocin made them lose interest in taking methamphetamine. “Much to our surprise and delight, we were able to basically eliminate meth self-administration, which is extremely vigorous in rats,” he says. “If you don’t limit them, they can overdose. It was quite interesting.”

As a result of that research, McGregor and his colleagues are now testing intranasal oxytocin to help reduce addiction in alcoholics and heavy pot smokers. “We’re in very early stages of clinical trials,” he says.

3. Why oxytocin may help autistic people. Unlike meth and amphetamine, MDMA isn’t particularly addictive. Over time users typically take MDMA less frequently, not more, as it tends to stop having pleasant effects. Could oxytocin be involved in the difference?

“One idea that we chucked around is that there are two parallel systems in the brain — one to do with desire for things and objects, the other tilted toward animate objects, friends, family, maybe pets,” says McGregor.

Both systems clearly involve the neurotransmitter dopamine, which has long been linked with desire — including addictive desire — and the pleasures involved in anticipation and drive.

“Maybe when you get high levels of oxytocin, plus high levels of dopamine, you have a motivational situation where you are strongly oriented toward [people],” McGregor says. “Maybe when it’s only dopamine, you’re oriented toward objects.”

The former situation would describe the MDMA user, who is not compulsively driven to take more ecstasy but who does want to cuddle and be social while high. In the latter situation, you have high-dose methamphetamine users — compulsively driven not only to take more meth, but to engage in repetitive behaviors with objects like scrubbing the floor or organizing collections.

If those characteristics sound vaguely reminiscent of autism, you’d be right. The findings on oxytocin may well lead to some new treatments for autism, McGregor suggests, given that autistic people have difficulty making the oxytocin-driven connection between people and pleasure. The drug baclofen, which is, in various forms, being tested for the treatment of alcoholism, other addictions and autism, has in fact been shown to affect oxytocin. “We published a paper last year showing that baclofen strongly activated oxytocin in the rat brain,” says McGregor. And oxytocin itself is also being studied as a treatment for autism.

Sometimes the intricate interconnections of science — in this journalist’s experience — can be overwhelming. Who knew that a new study on methamphetamine and MDMA would connect to experimental treatments for both autism and addiction?


link: http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/...addiction-and-autism-treatments-its-oxytocin/

Oxytocin decreases methamphetamine self-administration, methamphetamine hyperactivity, and relapse to methamphetamine-seeking behaviour in rats
link:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390809001750


Systemically administered oxytocin decreases methamphetamine activation of the subthalamic nucleus and accumbens core and stimulates oxytocinergic neurons in the hypothalamus.
link: http://www.bioportfolio.com/resourc...of-the-subthalamic-nucleus-and-accumbens.html

google it. tons more info around.
 
Its said meth due to its dopamine releasing effect instead of cokes re uptake inhibition generates 4 times more dopamine and thus is 4 times more powerful. Not sure if this is factual though.

Having used both its true Coke is more noticeable the meth even though meth is more powerful. Coke has more of a social goofy have fun effect (my words), an analogy would be that coke could be meth with an added positive intoxicating type effect making it more noticeable.

Meth seems to relate much more purely to the concept of dopamine being reward chemical. This could mean that its positive effects are active as a reward to some action or activity. This means you wont feel it just sitting there tying to notice it, it will seem less noticeable.

This is because it will only play a more active role when you are engaged an activity for which it can reward you for. So theoretically the times when you would notice it more strongly, you are doing something thats always awesomely fun and therefore are not focused on noticing its effect directly, if that makes sense.

Personally the best way I have found to gauge its effects are by listening to music. To me its clearly more rewarding/stronger then coke using this "test".

Also due to this difference and the more subtle effect it could be said to be more useful or functional then coke without the "intoxicating" effect. Those who prefer meth could say its value or superiority lies in the more pure subtle refined effect compared to the more intrusive effect of coke.

Personally i think they both have their uses. Meth is great and preferable but not social at all for me, its a personal experience. Coke is great for going out with mates but the lower potency always requires me to take the anxiety edge off with alc whereas meth seems to exhibit zero anxiety at all via proper dose. It seems more "pure" for lack of a better word.

I guess that could be a subjective way to explain the differences in experience and why newbies might think its less noticeable etc...

Oh, and I first started meth on SSRI's meaning the Serotonin effects where blocked. I recently came off them and there seemed to be no difference in effect even though other S drugs had an effect. I am doubtful on the significance of perceived effects related to the Serotonin properties of meth.
 
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Nope.
I'm on Zoloft/Sertraline (a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) and my dopamine works better than ever.
 
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