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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Can codeine trigger real physical opioid dependence ?

P

Psylex

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
90
Location
Switzerland/France
I really do not want to get any form of opiate tolerance, thus dependence and it's withdrawal symptoms. Some say that into this addiction, at one stage, opioid receptors may get permanently damaged, which could theoretically explain the high difficulty in trying to return back to "normal" again.

Now, considering my question in the title, are there any veritable feedbacks on real codeine induced withdrawal symptoms at all? Or is "codeine addiction" more of a psychological issue in the first place? For basic harm reduction purposes, on a recreationnal basis i personally prefer using codeine (oral) far more frequently than heroin (snorted). Would this be an accurate way of thinking about these substances ? Are there really opiates/opioids which indeed bring less physical dependence than others? If so, what would be the safest choice apart from codeine or tramadol for example ?


Thank you in advance for any help regarding this matter.
 
I think that dependence and w/d is different for everyone.

Yes. Of course codeine does come with it's own opiate dependance and w/d symtoms..
but with it's very short half life..and depending on the frequency and the actual dosages...
the severity of the w/d is very individual..
and can range from completely mild to a real pain...
including: runny nose, sweating, insomnia, weakness, stomach cramps, nausea,
vomiting, diarrhea, muscle spasms, chills, irritability, pain..

psychologically there's drug craving, anxiety, depression..etc..

After saying that..personally..
if having to choose between a serious amount of w/d from codeine or tramadol..
I'd pick the codeine w/d any day of the week..

as tramadol is like an opiod w/d with some AD w/d thrown in just for kicks.

Still others say..they never experience any w/d from codeine or tram..
so this is what leads me to believe it all really is very individual..
and I really honestly believe that
there are some people who are just more prone to withdrawal than others..

My body quickly adapts to anything..I think if I quit drinking cranberry juice..or my protein shakes...
I'm pretty sure I'd feel like crap for a week or two...

You said recreational...if you keep it that way..not a daily deal..
and not getting to the point where you feel like you need it to function
or need it to want to function..you should be golden.

~token
 
Oh lord yes! I had a daily 1g codeine and 400mg tram habit for a while; cold turkey from that was indescribable, I mean it.
However, codeine can be quite hard to get an addiction to dependant upon where you live, due to the legal restrictions - I had to travel to 14 pharmacies to get my codeine and not arouse suspicion.
 
As has been mentioned, the short answer is yes. You will become dependent on and tolerant of any opiate, including codeine and tramadol. Tramadol is a combination narcotic and SSRI (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor). As such any long term use and particularly abuse runs the risk of dependence on both aspects of the drug. SSRI discontinuation syndrome is a nasty problem to have in itself, never mind concurrent opiate withdrawal.

The benefit to this, however, is that even with a decent opiate tolerance, many people find Tramadol remains an effective analgesic for moderate pain. You never know when you might have a legitimate need, so I'd reserve tramadol for when you may need it.

As for tolerance, there is some promising research in the field. When your body produces natural endorphins they bind to receptor sites and then detatch while sending a signal to the cell to "recycle" the used receptors. Recent research has shown that opiates which behave in this manner (methadone is the only one I am currently aware of) tolerance develops much more slowly. Morphine and it's derivatives and analogues on the other hand do not result in this receptor recycling and Tolerance develops much more quickly. The jury is still out, further research needs to be done, but it would appear, from a tolerance standpoint, that methadone is a clear winner. Morphine, heroin and oxycodone (as well as almost all other opiates) are not.

One further note: addiction and dependence are entirely separate beasts. Everyone who takes an opiate regularly over time will become dependent. This is a physical response of the body. Addiction on the other hand is psychological. Unlike dependence, addiction can occur after the first use, and is particularly prevalent in those who abuse narcotics. If you take oxycodone every day to get high, while your grandmother takes it every day for pain, you will both become dependent, but only one of you is likely to be addicted.
 
Phatass > So that really means Codeine is as physically addictive as Morphine ?!? Hm...

SPC123 > I thought methadone was far more vicious than codeine, no? (i heard ex heroin addicts take such a long time getting off methadone..)

And i totally see what you guys mean with tramadol and SSRI discontinuation syndrome : not on purpose i quit venlafaxine (SNRI) cold turkey and i had absolute fucking depression (apart from already knowing what depression really is by itself because, between other things, of my cannabis addiction... :/ )

Isn't there any opioid/opiate which is safer than all the others?
 
Methadone tolerance increases slower than other opiate and their analogues. That speaks only to tolerance. Dependence is another issue entirely and varies between individuals to such an extent that it's not possible to predict your experience based on other's.
 
Of course the stronger the opiate the worse the withdrawals, but codeine is still just as addictive as any other opiate.
 
One of the reasons you don't see people talking about horrible codeine habits is that as the doses increase, the side effects such as pruritis (itching) disproportionately increase relative to the euphoria. Furthermore it's difficult to find preparations in many places that aren't compounded with large doses of acetominophen or other drugs making cwe necessary and the process laborious and costly given the payoffs relative to other available substances such as heroin or more potent pharmaceuticals. Codeine also can't be used parenterally so many opioid users move on to snorting, shooting, etc. when their habits increase and these routes range from from being less beneficial with codeine relative to other substance to being outright dangerous (intravenous use).

If someone persists in taking large enough doses of codeine which are equipotent in effect to opioids such as methadone, I don't see why the withdrawal wouldn't be every bit as nasty in theory... most just rarely get to this potent before moving on to methadone, oxy, dilaudid, heroin, etc. instead.

Unless I am wrong and there is something unique about codeine which prevents it from causing nasty withdrawals but as far as I know, the hard-ceiling notion has been thoroughly debunked. Does anyone else have reasons why high-dose codeine use wouldn't produce nasty withdrawals?
 
Hahaha Cane2theLeft : in france there is an otc codeine brand without paracetamol at 4€ per 300 mgs approximately ^^ (and several other brands in switzerland where i live, it's cheaper than heroin plus no CWE needed). Also, from heroin or codeine, i actually don't itch at all !! (it's so minor i barely even feel it/want to scratch), i just have the occasionnal slight nausea which is normal. And i love the codeine afterglow, it's so antidepressing.

i guess i got to find a specific report from someone..
 
Sounds like you're pretty lucky! 300mg of codeine isn't that large of a dose, if your tolerance is that low, I wouldn't expect the itching and other side effects to be overwhelming there (certainly pronounced). Have you tried doses much larger this?

If someone gets a large enough opioid habit, it would seem the effort going to different chemists, crushing that many pills, cwe'ing, etc. would eventually become prohibitive and other opioids more desirable. I don't have a lot of personal experience with codeine and what I'm describing is mostly from what I've read here from users with larger opioid habits that wouldn't even stop being sick from 300mg so I could certainly be wrong about some things. I tend to have better understanding of american drug culture as well where codeine isn't as readily available so that could skew my understanding some.
 
I can tell you that for someone who doesn't have a huge opiate tolerance like me, 300 mgs of codeine is a big amount (the threshold recreationnal dosage would be around 100 mgs i guess)... and i wouldn't dare to take more than 400 mgs because the overdose is somewhere around 500 to 800 mgs due to the ceiling effect i believe.

Yeah there are so many different types of drug cultures out there these days.

I am still searching Erowid for more feedback... from what i've already read, binging daily on codeine does give you withdrawals (obviously) and some people said that it would be allright to keep it to, let's say, 3 times per week maximum (hypothetically).
 
I wish I could get codeine all the time, I would have stayed on codeine for a long time.......I like codeine & the withdrawals are not as strong as hydrocodone........
 
Psylex said:
I can tell you that for someone who doesn't have a huge opiate tolerance like me, 300 mgs of codeine is a big amount (the threshold recreationnal dosage would be around 100 mgs i guess)... and i wouldn't dare to take more than 400 mgs because the overdose is somewhere around 500 to 800 mgs due to the ceiling effect i believe.
Click to expand...

There is no ceiling. This has been debunked numerous times. Codeine is weak, and as C2L said, most move to stronger opiates before codeine WD becomes a serious issue. C2L is 100% correct. There is no reason equipotent doses of codeine and oxycodone would have significantly differing withdrawals. The problem, again as C2L pointed out, is the relative weakness of codeine means anyone with any serious opiate tolerance wouldn't want to mess with it. If you have, say, tolerance to the point that it takes 200mg of oxycodone to catch a nice high, why would you choose to ingest 2000mg (2 grams) of codeine? It just doesn't make any sense.

Anyhow, you have your answer. Codeine tolerance and dependence will occur, and if you DO stick with codeine to insane levels (rather than switching to heroin or oxycodone) your withdrawal from 800mg of codeine will be every bit as bad as someone elses withdrawals from ~80mg of oxycodone. Trust me, if there were a way to abuse opiates without tolerance and dependence, everyone would be doing it. Everyone here anyhow. That said, if you keep looking I am sure you will find SOMEONE who will tell you otherwise. It's human nature to seek out advice that agrees with our predetermined notions. Unfortunately in this case, such advice will be dead wrong.
 
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