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Can anyone tell me what life was like before fentanyl?

Esperighanto said:
As far as I'm aware (and based on the study with this doi: 10.1007%2Fs12630-019-01294-y) carfent is estimated to be 20-100 times as potent as fentanyl. If this is true, the same way that fent was used to cut H to make it more potent yet also more dangerous, carfent is in the same position relative to fent.
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There simply haven't been proper human studies to provide an accurate value for potency. What I HAVE noted is that the more potent an opioid is, the more it's potency differs between people. I wonder if that's why super-potent opioids aren't more common? It's simply impossible to provide an appropriate dose - one person feels little, another turns blue.

I've noted that it seems more common among the non-rigid classes which makes me wonder if it's the docking that results in such differing potencies. About the only thing I trust is the RELATIVE potencies given within a single paper as they will use the same protocols for all homologues.

I've posted a link to a paper covering the relative activity of oxymorphone, metopon, 14-methoxymetopon and 14-methoxy-N-phenylethylmetopon. The last of these is around x500 M and by all accounts, the few papers that cover it all seem to conclude more or less the same potency.

I'm in no way suggesting that N-PE-14-OMO is an appropriate or desirable product, but it appears to display subjective effects similar to oxymorphone. Now, I've never sampled oxymorphone but on Opiophine, it was voted the most euphoric opioid among a group of people who had sampled hundreds of compounds.

To my mind, this would obviously not be a compound to be sold as a powder. I suppose windowpanes would be the cheapest way to ensure reliable doses but if one were going 'premium', I imagine small white pills with, I dunno, 0.2mg in each?

OT many years ago I met a couple of Dutch guys who had worked out how to produce a bicolored tablet. One face one colour, the other another. They kept exactly how they did it a secret but it was intended to be a 'seal of quality' for the high quality MDMA actually used by the Dutch.
 
People keep talking about Fentynal and having to redose in 3 hours or they are sick? I don't understand that at all... because the Fent analogues I use keep me well easily for 12 hours or more!
 
ovo1024 said:
People keep talking about Fentynal and having to redose in 3 hours or they are sick? I don't understand that at all... because the Fent analogues I use keep me well easily for 12 hours or more!
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Well plain vanilla fentanyl has a half-life of about 22 minutes. So it seems more likely that what you are obtaining is in fact an analogue.

But it's also dependent on how much tolerance and dependence you actually have. If it's low, withdrawal symptoms will take longer to arrive.
 
ovo1024 said:
People keep talking about Fentynal and having to redose in 3 hours or they are sick? I don't understand that at all... because the Fent analogues I use keep me well easily for 12 hours or more!
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I’ve noticed this too, lots of redosing compared to bth
 
luckycherry said:
I’ve noticed this too, lots of redosing compared to bth
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I don't know where either of you reside, but it has been noted that Canadian-made carfentanil is turning up as an active cut in powders sold as fentanyl.

Now there just isn't much data on the properties of carfentanil in man but it has been observed to display a two phase curve for duration due to it being highly lipophilic.

I believe on BLer actually noted that their gear lasted much, much longer than reports and went to the trouble of having it tested. It contained carfentanil.

I'm not saying it is specifically carfentanil as there are a number of analogues with longer durations of action. All I will suggest is that a lot of related drugs are sold AS fentanyl.
 
So .. as one of the tiny number of people who initiated their opiate use on fentanyl all I can say is .. what fentanyl? loadsa nitazines around in the UK and I can believe it exists in the US but the first wave was predominantly from the China trade (China didn't mind if people were making it .. import .. money .. karma for the Boxer Rebellion). I would be amazed if that isn't the reason for the first Canada wave of fent. There's a great vice documentary on it too.

Carfentanyl is fucking GOLD dust because it has an 8 hour half life. If you don't know why that's good then you've never taking fentanyl. Waking up emptying my bowels and stomach rapidly then sling-shotting on a line of fent .. is called .. Monday - but with carfent you get out of bed first.

And why is 8 hours good. The withdrawal from a hardcore fent habit is worse than anything I've experienced on opiates at around the 45 minute to an hour point. And at 8 hours .. just forget it. Don't go there without bupe (the only thing that will abort it).

That said .. makes a great pollutant to heroin because of that. I shudder to think .. at least in my day I was taking the actual drug. Fent can be nasty stuff if you don't know your taking it.

Be safe.
 
I know of several chemists who made their own fentanyl and fentanyl homologues. It ended up very badly every time. In each case they ended up having to use HUGE amounts and on top of that, they were having to redose those huge amounts every 20 minutes.

Two of them recovered but the acute withdrawal lasted over a year. One ended up in jail, another took their own life because they couldn't manage that massive withdrawal.

I don't think I would ever term carfentanil as 'gold' because if 'plain vanilla' fentanyl can result in such protracted withdrawal syndrome, I don't like to think what the carfentanil withdrawal will be like.

I'm sure it's a truly wonderful business model for those producing carfentanil. Essentially nobody is ever going to stop taking it unless they are incarcerated.

As for the nitazenes, well most have never even undergone even the most basic human trials so who knows what is in store for users? But the first case of someone illicitly producing the stuff resulted in the same outcome as the people with access to unlimited fentanyl. He got caught and the agony of withdrawal likely coupled with the prospect of a ling prison sentence meant he took his own life.

There are still many other highly potent opioids known to researchers. It's hard to know which will be the next to arrive. I do have a suspect - another class that provides for potentially many, many homologues but as long as the fentanyl and nitazene homologues can still be made, nobody will be looking for the next one down the path.
 
3DQSAR said:
another class that provides for potentially many, many homologues but as long as the fentanyl and nitazene homologues can still be made, nobody will be looking for the next one down the path.
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People will inevitably overdose, bans will inevitably occur, and things like methadone analogs, pethidine analogs, Bentley's, any of the countless mu opioid scaffolds, will be around.
 
Esperighanto said:
People will inevitably overdose, bans will inevitably occur, and things like methadone analogs, pethidine analogs, Bentley's, any of the countless mu opioid scaffolds, will be around.
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The special danger of those compounds with extreme potency is that with other classes of opioid, other forms of toxicity to which tolerance does not develop limit the total dose that can be consumed.

But with these extremely potent opioids, those other types of toxicity don't become an issue.

We are witness to Grisham's law.

I just wonder how many new classes will have to turn up before control becomes an impossible task.
 
Its funny, being on the west coast, when i was a heroin user 10+ years ago all that was available, for the most part, was crude Mexican "tar heroin" - a black-brown gunk containing diacetylmorphine, 6-mam and side-products like 6-monoacetylcodeine, plus plant resins etc. Despite its faults, it worked. Some batches were very strong.

While it was inferior back then, these days tar heroin would be like finding gold compared to fent.

Its funny, I remember 15 years ago or so on bluelight we discussed the question: why isn't fentanyl more commonly found on the street? I mean it seemed logical; poppies are costly and time consuming to grow whereas fentanyl precursors are dirt cheap and the yields are high. Yet fentanyl was only rarely found on the street 15-20 years ago. It didn't make sense, why weren't criminal organizations making street fentanyl? Why were they wasting their time with poppies? Perhaps someone read our posts and capitalized on the idea 💡

Of course, we know the answer to the question lies with China. They decided to do to us what the British did to them many years ago; getting them hooked on opium to address the trade imbalance (too much British silver was being used to buy Chinese goods, so they figured, "hey let's make the Chinese buy something"). Except, in this case, there was no trade imbalance, we already buy everything from China anyhow 😅. No, the answer must lie with the increased demand for Chinese RC's around a decade ago, during the high times of legal MDPV. It was around that time that Chinese vendors said, "hey, we'll sell you opioids too!".

But I'm glad street fent wasn't around then. I used to inject fentanyl patches 15 years ago, and they were expensive. If street fent was around back then I might not be alive today.
 
Well let's just say; I have heard you could do a line or two of coke while drunk and not keel over dead.
 
paranoid android said:
I had fentanyl prescribed to me long before fentanyl actually became a popular drug of abuse. I did eat, smoke and snort the frozen gell though. I learned early though that fent doesent give you any euphoria. It sucked so much compared to morphine and dilaudid. However i kept taking it because i was taking it for pain technically and not to get high. I stopped being able to afford the patches though so i had to go back to mscontin
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I had a fat shot of morphine after a resident screwed up and I wasn't in pain by the time I got it. It was at least twice what they normally give and I was I high on IV morphine. Not thrilled more like a dysphoria type experience for me. When I was opiate naive IV Dilaudid was great. But neither can compare to Oxycodone when Opiate naive. That is is pill form at 85% bioavailibility, no need to to shoot it.
When I was first on it at least 8 years ago at fat dose was better than anything. I have never had heroin or would mess with it even if it were still around in America, which it is not according to people on here not widely available or available at all.
 
Jnowhere said:
But neither can compare to Oxycodone when Opiate naive. That is is pill form at 85% bioavailibility, no need to to shoot it.
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I'm prescribed the stuff so all it does for me is to provide a little mobility.

I an aware that oxycodone became a huge problem in the US and I've read that people would crush and snort the pills. I could never quite understand why since not only is the oral bioavailability very high, but if consumed orally, about 10% of any dose is converted to oxymorphone by first-pass metabolism by the liver. So on paper at least, it's more potent consumed orally.

I might add that in the UK, you can divide what US doctors were prescribing in half. At the pain clinic I was informed that almost nobody is prescribed more than 80mg/day. Even that dose is mostly for palliative pain relief.
 
3DQSAR said:
I an aware that oxycodone became a huge problem in the US and I've read that people would crush and snort the pills. I could never quite understand why since not only is the oral bioavailability very high, but if consumed orally, about 10% of any dose is converted to oxymorphone by first-pass metabolism by the liver. So on paper at least, it's more potent consumed orally.
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I used to IV the original Perdue OC80 tablets. Was the first drug I used intravenously. I was in high school at the time, and was at my dealers house. He was in his 20s and was a steroid user, so he only had big 18 gauge syringes for intramuscular injection. He was not an IV user and I sort of did it as a self-imposed dare (something like, "hey guys, check this out"). I used the cotton that I tore from a bunch of q-tips to filter the oxycodone water slurry. I cringe now when I think about it. That 18 gauge needle hurt like a bitch, and the solution was not safe for injection.
 
3DQSAR said:
I'm prescribed the stuff so all it does for me is to provide a little mobility.

I an aware that oxycodone became a huge problem in the US and I've read that people would crush and snort the pills. I could never quite understand why since not only is the oral bioavailability very high, but if consumed orally, about 10% of any dose is converted to oxymorphone by first-pass metabolism by the liver. So on paper at least, it's more potent consumed orally.

I might add that in the UK, you can divide what US doctors were prescribing in half. At the pain clinic I was informed that almost nobody is prescribed more than 80mg/day. Even that dose is mostly for palliative pain relief.
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There's a very (especially American) relationship between insufflation and euphoria, I suspect it relates to amphetamines but I'm not positive. I've watched people insufflate things that are blatantly not intranasally active, V-cut diazepam tablets and weed pressies and shit.
 
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