Calling Fast&Bulbous or Bilz0r, regarding ketamine and SSRI's question!

[Diacetylus]

Ok, look. I am aware that this isn't really what one would consider an immensely Advanced Drug Discussion question. But, I DO know that Bilz0r and Fast&Bulbous frequent these forums and I am going to post this here in hopes of getting one of their qualified and/or professional opinions regarding this matter. Please, spare the flames. Rest assured, once I get an answer I permit one of the moderators to close this thread, if they feel no useful discussion will arise from it.

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Ok, did a search regarding the coming question and came across no results.
I was thinking of using some Ketamine, in conjunction with Heroin this coming weekend, because I read somewhere that Ketamine and DXM are pretty good potentiators for Heroin. I won't be using any DXM with Heroin, as I am aware with the current medication I am on (Celexa/Citalopram), which is an SSRI, I risk Seratonin Syndrome, which I am aware is a life threatening scenario.

I understand that Ketamine works in a very similar fashion to what DXM does. Something to do with NMDA activity? and, the metabolisation in the breakdown of it involves something along the lines of Monamine oxidisation? Not good for one on SSRIs, I would presume? Or is Ketamine entirely different to DXM and pose no threat in terms of Seratonin Syndrome? Swift replies greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[TioMoco]

I too take an SSRI (Lexapro 20mg) and an atypical anti-psychotic (Seroquel 25mg for sleep) and have dabbled++ with opioids, and have tried on a couple of occasions to potentiate the opioid experience with small amounts of DXM, just to see for myself what it could do.

I experienced very little potentiation, and am unlikely to add the DXM again, unless I find myself in a habitual situation where even a little bit of potentiation (and even reduction in tolerance) would be something to consider.

Having said that, I believe (from my limited experience and from the reading I have done on opioid potentiation and tolerance development) that there is LITTLE TO NO DANGER of serotonin syndrome from ingesting the things you have mentioned.

I think you'd need to be taking boatload of serotonin-effecting meds over an extended period of time for this to be a consideration. I don't think the NMDA activity of the DXM would impact this. I'm no chemist, just a guy with mild BP2 and ADD who also reads up on the meds he takes and the risks associated with them...

I've had zero experience with K, but would consider it someday.

Anyway, K with H might be very intense and fun. I wouldn't sweat the serotonin syndrome...

Enjoy...

tioMoco

 

[fastandbulbous]

It's not so much to potentiate the opiate as to prevent the development of tolerance due to downregulation of the mu opiate receptors. NMDA antagonists are reckoned to slow/prevent the development of tolerance to various drugs, meaning that a person can continue to take the same dose of an opiate and get the same effect.

DXM also acts on serotonogic systems in a big way, which is why it's best to avoid taking it with SSRI's (or other drugs that have major effects on serotonogic activity). Ketamine doesn't share that property with DXM and so is a much better bet for combining with opiates to prevent tolerance building up

 

[raybeez]

From both personal experience with mixing ketamine and oxycodone, and studies such as this one, I am thouroughly convinced that significant potentiation occurs!

Mixing 10-20mg bumps of reagent grade KetHcl with 40mg of oxycodone produced effects more along the lines of (subjective quantification) 60mg of oxycodone.

It's not so much to potentiate the opiate as to prevent the development of tolerance due to downregulation of the mu opiate receptors. NMDA antagonists are reckoned to slow/prevent the development of tolerance to various drugs, meaning that a person can continue to take the same dose of an opiate and get the same effect.

DXM also acts on serotonogic systems in a big way, which is why it's best to avoid taking it with SSRI's (or other drugs that have major effects on serotonogic activity). Ketamine doesn't share that property with DXM and so is a much better bet for combining with opiates to prevent tolerance building up

 

[BilZ0r]

Ketamine doesn't have the serotonergic effects that DXM does. So yeah, you can mix ketamine, opioids and SSRIs... but be careful about the potentiation.

 

[fastandbulbous]

From both personal experience with mixing ketamine and oxycodone, and studies such as this one, I am thouroughly convinced that significant potentiation occurs!

In my experience, it feels more like a plain additive effect rather than a synergism/potentiation, but then again I much more prefer ketamine on its own, so I may be wrong

 

[Archie Funker]

Do not listen to BilZ0r, I have mixed DXM with other SSRI's. I became blind and was seriously afraid that I was going to remain that way for ever; five days later my vision returned to normal. Not only was my eyesight affected but my motor skills as well. The K and H mixture is no big deal nor would be the K and DXM but I would definately NOT recomend mixing DXM with SSRI's including E. I'm not trying to sound all wise or anything, but I have done just about evey drug and mixed the majority of them; DXM is one drug I probably will never mix again. Sorry to rain on your parade. I hope this helps.

 

[hussness]

Discussion of whether or not DXM + citalopram will cause serotonin syndrome is not all that relevent without any dosage information. What's your dosage of citalopram? And how much DXM are you planning on using?
I'm on fluoxetine and have taken a couple of nyquils and never got serotonin syndrome. But it can be a whole different story if you're talking about 30mg DXM vs. 300mg, or whatever.

 

[Diacetylus]

Thanks for the replies Fast&Bulbous, Bilz0r. Ok, to hussness and Archie Funker. Please read the original post again. I will NOT be mixing any DXM with my SSRI's I already noted that I am aware that they are a dangerous post in my original post.
Archie Funker, I think you are getting confused, Bilz0r didn't say it's fine for me to mix DXM whilst on a regimen of SSRI's. He said, it's fine with the ketamine.

hussness, I hate the sound of DXM. I will never touch that crap, even if I were not on SSRI's. However, I am currently taking 40mg a day of Citalopram. Actually, I do have some days where I have a break between doses. Even though this is generally not recommended by doctors and health professionals. I have come across no problems doing it.

 

[BilZ0r]

Do not listen to BilZ0r, I have mixed DXM with other SSRI's. I became blind and was seriously afraid that I was going to remain that way for ever;

Dude, I never said someone should mix DXM and SSRIs, I said, you can mix ketamine and SSRIs. Please read my post again.

 

[ChemicalSmiles]

Ketamine + heroin = me very fucked up and naseaus. . . wouldnt do it again.

 

[Chuff]

something else to consider is that if you misjudge the effects you could go over easier if you have eaten that could mean you vomit with a risk of choking while you are out of it, two friends of mine who were regualr K users died this way while using small amounts of alcohol Heroin or benzo's will come with the same risks if not greater.

make sure there is someone around to look out for you.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Do not listen to BilZ0r

Before beginning to spout, make sure you read the post correctly. BilZ0r is very well versed in matters pharmacological (like post grad) and because of thaton such matters I'd be inclined to go with his opinion due to his background and the fact that he gives detailed explanations with refs.

I'm not trying to sound all wise or anything...

Don't worry, you weren't

 

[Archie Funker]

Thanks for the replies Fast&Bulbous, Bilz0r. Ok, to hussness and Archie Funker. Please read the original post again. I will NOT be mixing any DXM with my SSRI's I already noted that I am aware that they are a dangerous post in my original post.
Archie Funker, I think you are getting confused, Bilz0r didn't say it's fine for me to mix DXM whilst on a regimen of SSRI's. He said, it's fine with the ketamine.

hussness, I hate the sound of DXM. I will never touch that crap, even if I were not on SSRI's. However, I am currently taking 40mg a day of Citalopram. Actually, I do have some days where I have a break between doses. Even though this is generally not recommended by doctors and health professionals. I have come across no problems doing it.

I appologize for my hasty response. I hope everything went alright with you this weekend and I will pay closer attention to the original post next time.

 

[Archie Funker]

Dude, I never said someone should mix DXM and SSRIs, I said, you can mix ketamine and SSRIs. Please read my post again.

I appologize for my hasty response. I was recalling one of my past mistakes that really didn't have anything to do with your post. As you can tell I am new to this site and need to read a lot more posts in order to get to know who is who and what their experiences are before I open my big mouth.

 

[blase deviant]

From both personal experience with mixing ketamine and oxycodone, and studies such as this one, I am thouroughly convinced that significant potentiation occurs!

Mixing 10-20mg bumps of reagent grade KetHcl with 40mg of oxycodone produced effects more along the lines of (subjective quantification) 60mg of oxycodone.

What order did you do them in/what was the timing of the two?

Also, how much K did you do total?

 

[raybeez]

1st experience. Oxycodone 40mg (crushed, oral), then about 2 hours in, nasal Ket bumps, aprox 10-20mg each time. 3, bumps about 15 min apart. 1st bump produced no significant increase in effects, 2nd bump, minor effects, 3rd bump destroyed me: Heavy nodding, as well as a significant Ketamine dissociative experience. Was fairly uncomfortable in all actuality.

2nd experience. Oxycodone 40mg (30mg, crushed, oral; then 90min in, 10mg nasal). 30 min later, a single Ket line, 25mg --> hit the spot. Increased opiate effects without any crazed overpowering from the ketamine.

Should add that the KetHcl was sigma-aldrich 99%, and noticably more potent than experiences with powder prepared from Ketalar injection sol'n.

What order did you do them in/what was the timing of the two?

Also, how much K did you do total?