Bupe (bupe) Help start suboxen again very scared!

[zeusaruu]

Hello all, so im about 23 years old. I started doing drugs at the age of 17 it all started with pills vike,pers, and of course when i was 20 years old my cousin introduced me to heroin. I did heroin probably 2-3 20$ bags a day wich i thought was alot back then. Finally i was sick of it and decided to get some help which i found a suboxen doctor was prescribed 2 8mg a day and they worked wonders for me i would take 1 8mg in morning then another at night and my withdrawals were totally gone i was so happy. Long story short i didn't have money one month to pay the dr so he kicked me out, and of course i started using h again because i didnt want to be sick. ive been using for about 8 months now alot more than i ever have probably a gram a day of some really strong stuff i feel like my tolerance is very hiigh because i cant just go out and buy stuff it has to be really potent stuff or it wont do anything for me no matter how much i do. Long story short is im back with a suboxen dr prescribed 3- 8mg a day but i have yet to iduct myself yet because im scared to throw myself into PW withdraws again ( i have done it 1s before ) and idk if the suboxen is going to help me with my tolerance being like this and all. I would love to hear some advise on what to do. If anyone has successful stories using subs went back out and got a really high tolerance and tried subs again. What should i do? will they help like they used to? and i want you guys to know it takes me about 18 hours before i start feeling crappy almost 24hours to be exact.

Please help im afraid to take them its been 8months since they used to help me and ever since i through myself into pw withdraw and no matter how many i took it didnt help me im afraid they wont work for me. I want to get off this shit and on the subs for a start please anyone...whats your thoughts?

 

[cjh1221]

First you should visit the Suboxone Mega Thread. No one can tell you that the subs will hold you but I am going to strongly say yes, in my opinion you will be very comfortable. One thing I would highly recommend is to not take 3 strips a day. I can honestly say you would likely be very comfortable on around 4 mg/day, or even less. Some of here who had habits a lot bigger than yours even get by on .5 mg./day. I would wait as long as I could, till you feel as sick as you can bear, then dose 2mg. If that doesn't work in an hour, add another 2, and so on until you're comfortable. The amount it takes to get you comfortable should be your starting dose from there on out, and could even be lowered after a few days by a mg. or two. You want to keep your dose as low as possible. It is a lot harder to come off 32 mg./day than 4. Trust me, you will be fine. Just try to relax, be honest with yourself about your symptoms, and don't over-do it. Less is more, read through the mega thread and you'll have a much better understanding of the process and pharmacology of it.
If your worried about PW, look up the COWS worksheet and have someone else score you. It's hard to be honest when you're uncomfortable and looking for relief. A neutral third party can discern actual physical symptoms from those that are either mental or made worse by your anxiety.

 

[cjh1221]

Have you induced yet? Keep us updated, I always like to hear success stories.

 

[Znegative]

hey, I been in your shoes, the subs should work, but it's going to be key that you wait until you're really fucking sick. The longer you wait, the better the subs are going to work. Finally someone who admits that they don't really get sick for 24 hours, I used to get so annoyed with all these pussies who would claim to be sick 4 hours after doing a shot, and they'd tell me it was 'cause they had a really high tolerance', when I'd be doing three times as much dope as they were, and I could say for a fact that it took at least 16 hours for me to be REALLY dope sick, 8-12 hours are uncomfortable yes, but it takes around 16 hours to be TRULY dope sick (and I got a fast metabolism).

Anyway, I would try to aim for 36 hours if you can before taking the suboxone. It'll work dude, it might take a few days to feel completely stable but if you stick with it, you'll be feeling normal (I would bet on it) within four or five days, if not immediately. Whatever you do, don't start switching back and forth from subs to heroin over and over again, I did that for a long time and it did make the subs much more ineffective, and each time it got harder to get back on them.

 

[cjh1221]

hey, I been in your shoes, the subs should work, but it's going to be key that you wait until you're really fucking sick. The longer you wait, the better the subs are going to work. Finally someone who admits that they don't really get sick for 24 hours, I used to get so annoyed with all these pussies who would claim to be sick 4 hours after doing a shot, and they'd tell me it was 'cause they had a really high tolerance', when I'd be doing three times as much dope as they were, and I could say for a fact that it took at least 16 hours for me to be REALLY dope sick, 8-12 hours are uncomfortable yes, but it takes around 16 hours to be TRULY dope sick (and I got a fast metabolism).

Anyway, I would try to aim for 36 hours if you can before taking the suboxone. It'll work dude, it might take a few days to feel completely stable but if you stick with it, you'll be feeling normal (I would bet on it) within four or five days, if not immediately. Whatever you do, don't start switching back and forth from subs to heroin over and over again, I did that for a long time and it did make the subs much more ineffective, and each time it got harder to get back on them.

^^this....it drive me crazy when someone says they're already "sick" before the dope has even truly worn off in most cases. Like "dude, I have a wicked fast metabolism, I gotta do a shot like every 2 hours or I'm sick as a dog."....silly.
The longer you wait, the better it will feel too. Once the Bupe starts working it's sweet relief. It will be a lot easier to tell when you're at a good dose when you feel such a drastic change from shivering/sweating/shitting to comfortable and at ease. Just try to keep it as low as you can and taper as quickly as you can, if you think you can stay clean. I'm all for Bupe for life if thats what it takes to keep someone off junk. Use the sober time on Bupe to work on your mental health so when (if) you're ready to come off the Bupe, you will have an easier time staying clean.

 

[sm0kestack]

Yo. I just went on a nasty relapse myself for about 3weeks ¼g/day of fentanyl-cut I am sure dope. I just reinducted myself to my subs today. I like what y'all mentioned above, true dope sickness won't really get started till around 16-24hours after your last dose. And yeah Znegative is right, for me the sweet spot is around 36hours after your last dose of heroin. UNLESS your shit may be cut with a longer acting opioid, hopefully not. Example: methadone is a long acting opioid, so it takes longer for them to switch from methadone to suboxone. But heroin is shorter acting and takes less time.

Anyway, today I was sick as fuck, but was not too sure if I was ready to take suboxone yet, and I was dead set on dosing it around the 24hour mark, but I only made it to 22. But first, as mentioned above, I used the COWS sheet (Clinical opiate Withdrawal Scale). I fell under the MODERATE withdrawal category, near severe, but not quite severe. And to dose suboxone I have seen you have to be in MODERATE to SEVERE withdrawal to not really have to worry about precipitated withdrawal.

So now I used the COWS sheet, scored myself HONESTLY into MODERATE withdrawal, now HOW MUCH suboxone do I take? I did it just how most everyone here at BL says, slowly in low-dose increments. I started with 1mg SUBLINGUALLY, I DID NOT INJECT IT. This is CRUCIAL, if you are doing your first dose of sub, do not inject, if you are not ready yet the precipitated withdrawal will be VERY intense. BUT if you do not happen to be ready yet and put a small dose, like .5-1mg under the tongue and IF there are any PWDs , they will be relatively mild, and you will know where you are at. So after that first initial SMALL dose, give it time, let the buprenorphine settle in. Give it about an hour, then try another small dose, then give another hour, and so on... Eventually you should start feeling better. As long as you were honest with the COWS scale, and TRY to go 24hours after last heroin or whatever shot. You should be good.

The way I did it was at the 21hour mark I COWS scored myself, scored in MODERATE withdrawal, 22hours took 1mg suboxone, felt mild precipitated withdrawal, bupe kicked whatever was remaining off my receptors , 23hours dropped another .6mg or so under tongue, no too noticeable change, 24hours, my habit was relatively small, so I figured 2mg would not be out of line. I dropped it. At this point, friends and I had to do some running around and I just sat on this dose for a couple hours, and noticed NO PWDs. And by the time I got back, the withdrawal was pretty much eliminated. But for safe general keeping I dropped another 2mg at 26hours now, and have been on that for the rest of the night. Now at 32hours after last dose of heroin, I am good on the suboxone, don't feel the need to take more, and took a total 5½mg, though the last 2mg may not have been really needed, I got thru it. Thank god I didn't use cuz there's some business I have to take care of which involves me only having bupe in system in 3 days .. Lol. Nuff said there.

But yeah, give it TIME as much to the point you cannot HONESTLY take it no more, COWS sheet, DOSE LOW, and SLOWLY over each hour. Do it like this and precipitated withdrawal and the worry about subs working properly should not be too much of an issue. And also read up on how to dose the subs properly too so you absorb them right, the threads mentioned above have tons of info. Like being well hydrated, brush your teeth, don't smoke or drink caffeinated beverages 20mins before and after taking subs sublingually, since it constricts your veins etc....

Good luck inducting, or to whoever reading this trying to induct now but is not sure about when and how to dose, since the OP has already been done this lol.

 

[SayingSeven]

I think tolerance and length of use really is key here. A few days ago I just switched back to sub from about a .5 g IV habit. I've done this three times now within the last year. The first time I only waited about 15 hours--big mistake. Horrible PW. The second time I made it to 30 or so hours, and still experienced quite a bit of PW. It seems like I just can't even begin to feel better at all with sub until at least 48 hours. This time I waited almost 3 days after my last shot of heroin, but the first and second night I took small doses of hydrocodone, as well as one dose of 50mg loperamide. I was still sick and completely useless those three days but it was at least bearable. When I finally dosed 2mg of Suboxone, I didn't notice much improvement but it didn't hurt either. I ended up taking 8mg that day and still barely got any sleep that night, but it eliminated the worst of the other symptoms of withdrawal. However, even at 5 or 6 days now I'm not sleeping well, still have some cold chills and some sweats and a little bit of stomach issues. But I am sure the whole experience has been much more mild than if I had gone CT.

I don't want to discourage you because it is doable and it will get better, but you may need a few days to normalize. The main thing here is not only that you need to be in moderate withdrawal first, but also that you want your tolerance to be at the equivalent of 30mg methadone/day or the sub probably isn't going to help much. Just wait as long as you can, start out with the tiniest amount of sub when you finally do dose, and wait at least an hour to see how your body reacts. And don't take more if you get any PW! Just wait it out, it will get better.

 

[sm0kestack]

Ya you're right. It does all depend on tolerance, length of habit, and how much used, as well as quality of dope. Some dope I wouldn't even feel mild withdrawal til after 24hours hits. Last night I didn't get any sleep, just kind of laid there. Heh, which is unusual, cuz I usually go to sleep just fine after inducting even on first day. But yeah key thing is taking small doses, seeing on how body reacts, til PW doesn't fuck with you no more and you notice the sub working.

 

[sm0kestack]

I just sublingually dosed 4mg, let's see how it holds me thru day 2. I am also taking gabapentin, took 1600mg and promethazine 25mg on the side. I think it should be an easy day 2 relatively. Nothing is going to be as good as when you are on your full mu agonist tho. That's where people gets disappointed with subs a lot.

 

[SayingSeven]

I just sublingually dosed 4mg, let's see how it holds me thru day 2. I am also taking gabapentin, took 1600mg and promethazine 25mg on the side. I think it should be an easy day 2 relatively. Nothing is going to be as good as when you are on your full mu agonist tho. That's where people gets disappointed with subs a lot.

How did the 4mg hold you? How was day 2, etc.?

 

[BasX]

That dose is high as hell. Trust me man you do not want to take 16mg or 24mg (insane) and ween down from that. It will be painstakingly long and pointless. Taking 8mg will be plenty. Also, if you want to reduce the PW, pop the thing under your tongue as you're about to sleep. You will go through the PW while you sleep and that will be it (I've had massive habits before and the only thing that really kept the w/d through to morning was a lot of fentanyl). Be careful not to take it too early or you will suffer. Make sure you are sleeping within MAX 5 min of putting it under your tongue, it should be relatively easy.

 

[Thugnasty]

Im all for subs since that's the only reason I was able to get off the dope. But then when I was on 24mg a day for a year. And my doctor decided to leave his practice leaving me high and dry with my last month's worth.. I tried tapering best I could, but then I ran out and got to withdraw from that as well. Which is not fun what so fucking ever.

 

[BasX]

Like I said, 24mg is INSANE and totally pointless. It serves to keep you seeing your doctor for as long as possible and that's about it.

 

[SayingSeven]

...if you want to reduce the PW, pop the thing under your tongue as you're about to sleep. You will go through the PW while you sleep and that will be it... Make sure you are sleeping within MAX 5 min of putting it under your tongue, it should be relatively easy.

I don't think I'd be able to sleep through precipitated withdrawal. BasX, are you suggesting a person should not wait until he or she is in moderate withdrawal? In other words, get high on drug of choice and then lay down with bupe under the tongue? I can fall asleep quickly if I'm high--sometimes almost instantaneously. But if I'm in withdrawal at all, even mildly, there's no way I'm getting any sleep. And if by some miracle I did happen to fall asleep, I'm sure as soon as PW kicked in my body would wake me up.

Have you actually done what you've suggested and been successful? Did you wake up with a mess in your bed? lol.

 

[sm0kestack]

How did the 4mg hold you? How was day 2, etc.?

Day 2 was so-so, still dealt with some body aches, mild cold sweat here and there, and some stomach problems. No real bad cravings to get high. I hit an NA meeting that day, do it helped a little with cravings. But I felt OK, it was tolerable.

Day 3, I got some sleep actually, I felt a lot better. Woke up with that good feeling when you have been taking subs. Like "OK the subs are definitely working", no withdrawal symptoms at all, except for slight nausea, and little stomach issues. But I was cool.

Sux now that after that thing I had to take care of, I am back in using H, but in a couple weeks I really plan on reinducting, and staying on. Use the subs for what they are best used for, and that is for staying clean maintenance!

I will let you guys know when I am reinducting again, and the full experience.

 

[SayingSeven]

Glad to hear it worked out okay. I was planning on reinducting tomorrow but I think I'm going to wait until next Friday. I'm using a half gram daily right now and I'd like to cut that in half for a week before I switch back to bupe. It's not going to be a pleasant week but I figure it will be better than having to wait so many hours before inducting and then still feeling like crap all week. At .25 a day I figure it should be a much smoother transition. What do you all think?

 

[BasX]

I don't think I'd be able to sleep through precipitated withdrawal. BasX, are you suggesting a person should not wait until he or she is in moderate withdrawal? In other words, get high on drug of choice and then lay down with bupe under the tongue? I can fall asleep quickly if I'm high--sometimes almost instantaneously. But if I'm in withdrawal at all, even mildly, there's no way I'm getting any sleep. And if by some miracle I did happen to fall asleep, I'm sure as soon as PW kicked in my body would wake me up.

Have you actually done what you've suggested and been successful? Did you wake up with a mess in your bed? lol.

Yes, I've probably done this well over 100 times. I did this every single time I needed to switch back to bupe (which was quite often). That's how I would be able to go back and forth between subs and full agonists so often. I explained it in another (longer) post that you need to immediately fall asleep after taking it or it will not work. I found that with PW and w/d in general, the problem was not staying asleep, but falling asleep initially. Think back to regular w/d for you, it's a given that it's really difficult to fall asleep, but when you finally do at 3-4am, do you find it pretty easy to remain asleep for a solid 6 hours? If so then this will work just as well for you as for me.

If you take it even 2 minutes too early, then you will start to feel the PW, leading to no sleep and hours of suffering. As long as I fell asleep before the bupe actually kicks in, I never felt any PW and I could wake up taking more suboxone with no problems at all. To be honest the hardest part was getting the timing right. I often woke up with the pill on my bed because I waited too long and fell asleep before I took it. This was actually very frustrating because I would plan to not have any opiates the next day, but would wake up needing something and not able to take suboxone or I would go into PW. I often resorted to my gf putting it under my tongue for me. I have seriously taken heroin, then popped suboxone under my tongue 3 hours later as I'm falling asleep, felt no PW at all, and woke up feeling absolutely fine.

I never had significant gastrointestinal effects from w/d, even from fentanyl, so I can't really comment specifically for you, but no lol I never made a 'mess in my bed'.

 

[BasX]

Editing again... regarding whether you think the PW would wake you up, I actually found the opposite. Like it's a nightmare if you're not already asleep, but if you're already sleeping, the PW seemed to almost make me sleep more soundly. I know it sounds strange but it's true (at least in my case and I suspect most people). Believe me sleep is basically impossible for me in w/d as well but this method works like a charm.

Alternatively, if you have difficulty with the timing and falling asleep quickly (as I did), what you can do is set an alarm in the middle of the night, pop the suboxone, and go back to sleep. It's usually extremely easy if you wake up in the middle of the night to fall right back asleep. If I was stuck and didn't have the option of taking it just before sleep, I always took my doses of suboxone EXTREMELY gradually. Like taking 1/50 of a pill every 30 min or so. That would minimize any sudden PW significantly.

For you Seven, try taking small doses of bupe just before falling asleep while still on dope. Take .25-0.5mg for the week to get it built up in your system and it will be way easier than cutting down like that then still being miserable. Your talking about being uncomfortable for a week rather when you really can totally avoid it.

Also, as long as your full agonist dose is not insanely high, you go through the PW and it's done. For example, if you take your suboxone and go into PW for 2 hours, it's unlikely (although possible from high doses) that you will go into another round of PW say 2-3 hours later from more suboxone.

To be honest I always thought it was ridiculous for people to be in w/d 24, 36, or 48 hours before taking the subs. I've switched more times than I can count and the worst thing was mistiming a couple times and being in PW w/d for maybe 2 hours (this probably happened 5 times out of 100). I'm very surprised not more people do this, maybe it's just not common knowledge?

Here from another thread:

Sure enough I slipped back into my old ways, this time though it was more like binges of fentanyl/heroin and going back on suboxone. Let me tell you, it fucking sucks to go through that precipitated w/d constantly. I would time it so I would pop 4mg under my tongue just before sleeping and basically slept through the precipitated w/d, or set an alarm at 4am, wake up, put the sub under my tongue, then immediately go back to sleep. I found as long as I didn't binge massive amounts of fentanyl, a strong dose of suboxone would precipitate w/d for roughly 2-3 hours, and I wouldn't feel anything. Massive fentanyl binges would create 2 day w/d regardless of anything. This was actually a little harder than it sounds, and many times I waited too long and woke up with the sub beside my head from not taking it. At one point I would make my gf put it under my tongue for me. If you take it to early, get ready for precipitated w/d hell with no hope of sleep.

 

[SayingSeven]

Thanks again for the suggestion. For some reason if I wait 24 hours and take a sub, it will make the withdrawal worse but it's not like how people describe where they have a few hours of intense PW then the sub starts working and they feel better. For me, the withdrawal will get a little bit worse and stay bad and it doesn't really matter how much sub I do or don't take. At about 48 hours the sub will finally start working and it will take about 40% of the withdrawal away but I'll still feel like crap and I'll be pretty useless for the next day or two. And I still won't sleep a wink. I just don't understand it... It seems like a lot of people do more than a half gram of dope daily and they don't have that hard of a time switching.

 

[cjh1221]

I have had times when ive done a gram of fairly decent quality dope in less than a day. I usually time it so my last dose is right before I go to sleep. Then, about 18 hours later I shoot about .5 mg. Sub and everything goes away. I usually am not even feeling any WD symptoms at the time I dose my sub but I think thats because the previous dose is still lurking and I was just shooting through it instead of letting the sub wear off completely. If not then I dont know why but I dont have to be in WD at all.

It's different for everyone and I know i'm probably playing a dangerous game. One of these times i'm likely going to wait too long and the Sub dose from before my binge will have been worn off and ill get PW. Sorry you have to deal with that Seven, too bad you cant do what I do. Maybe its worth a try.

Get your dose of Sub down to a smaller dose, do your dope 12-18 hours over the Sub..if youre one of those that can shoot through it relatively easily...then re-dose before the prior dose wears off? I guess it's worth a try, just make sure you're at a dose that will still hold you but not too large to shoot through easily. I try to be at around 1.5 mgs. most of the time anyway, taken as a .5 mg. shot since shooting is 98% BA and sublingual is around 30% BA.

Whatever your method, if you can get down to around that dose it's fairly easy to shoot through, and if you binge for 12-18 hours after, you still will have sub on your receptors so there should'nt be a reason to worry about PW later when you do dose again. Hope that helps

NAMASTE