Buddhism vis a vis Nihilism

[Foreigner]

@RUC4

Buddhism teaches us to let go of desire, ignorance and attachment by following the Noble Eightfold Path. It teaches us that nothing is inherently real (it's all Samsara) and the same Emptiness pervades everything in apparent existence. However, just because nothing is real doesn't mean that things don't feel real, so the other half of the equation is practicing compassion. The compassion becomes the antidote to the emptiness of meaning.

The reason why I found Buddhism nihilistic is as follows. Every person is supposed to adhere to the same precepts of practice and nobility, which essentially erases the individual like any other religion. While nothing has any inherent meaning, we are made to believe that each person is responsible for purifying their individual karma that is ripening from the deeds/misdeeds of a past life. There are proscriptions about how to do so, all of which require a high degree of conformity.

Buddhism does not reconcile that the needs, life path, or "karma" of the individual may conflict with the proscriptions for avoiding attachment. For example, sex is seen as a lustful attachment, but what if it's my true nature to find God through sexuality, a tantric path? They tell you not to eat garlic or onion as these are too invigorating to the fire, and fire is bad. Why is fire bad? Because it leads to passion, lust and attachment. In a word, Buddhism is not holistic. It does not cater to different kinds of choice that lead to enlightenment. In fact, they had a pretty fixed idea of what "spiritual" and "enlightened" looks like. Can an enlightened person exhibit anger or annoyance? Apparently not. So everyone was so upright, like they had a stick up their ass all day.

Everyone I came into contact with who was a devout Buddhist, whether it was the clergy or the lay followers, had no life force. They were pale, dry, cold, wooden people who had suppressed all their desires, passions and "zest" for life. They came across as hollowed out people. Buddhism, if taken to its ultimate destination, is a life of surrender and abdication. Which makes sense given its history in Tibet... a country turned state turned fiefdom that had been conquered and oppressed countless times, first by its own people and then by the Chinese. Abdication makes sense when you can't be who you truly are, when all control has been removed from you. It is the path of the conquered and defeated.

Buddhism revolves around abdication of the individual to the Absolute, with little acknowledgment of the inherent truth that the individual, in all their messiness, is part of that Absolute. Sure, they will pay lipservice to individuation, but ultimately they expect you to conform to the grand Buddhist plan and forget who you are. Just become another automaton who says, "I am not this person, I am not this place, I am not this time." Self-negation to the nth degree. That's why it's nihilistic.

I mean... whose karma is this anyway if we're all just God? How does the karma attach to the person? How is karma "stored?" Isn't it all just God's karma? After all, we are all God, so am I really the one doing anything here? And the idea that you can "accumulate merit" to erase bad karma is utterly laughable. There's nothing in here that accumulates anything. It's just God.

I think the basic precepts of Buddhism are useful to modern people, like being able to instantly access inner peace by quieting the mind. However, if you really want answers about the bedrock of reality, Buddhism is not it. They teach you to abandon yourself, which is pure nihilism. Other paths, like Vedanta and Tantra, make way more sense to me because they acknowledge that the Atman, the real self, the core existence-consciousness-bliss, is God individuated-as-you and therefore the independent arising of the mind-body is actually meant to do what it does and is not a mistake that needs to be negated with endless self-suppression.

If you deny who you are on the path to enlightenment, you will end up in existentialism nihilism. You won't become enlightened.

 

[RUC4]

You criticized Buddhism for promoting surrender and abdication, it's essential to recognize that the intention is not to negate the individual's existence but to transcend the illusion of the separate self. The ultimate goal of self-negation in Buddhism is to liberate oneself from suffering and gain a deeper understanding of reality.

The concept of self-negation in Buddhism refers to letting go of the ego or the belief in a permanent and independent self. This doesn't mean denying one's individuality or uniqueness but rather breaking free from the attachments and illusions that cause suffering. By realizing the emptiness of inherent existence, individuals can cultivate compassion and interconnectedness with all beings.

Buddhism teaches that suffering arises from craving, desire, and attachment. By negating the self in the sense of releasing clinging to ego-driven desires, individuals can achieve a profound sense of freedom and peace. The practice of self-negation helps individuals to let go of the relentless pursuit of pleasure and the fear of pain, leading to a balanced and contented state of mind.

Buddhism emphasizes the Middle Way, which avoids extremes and encourages a harmonious and balanced approach to life. You
criticized Buddhist practitioners for appearing lifeless and suppressed, this might result from a misinterpretation or a misguided application of the teachings. Buddhism advocates for the skillful management of emotions and desires rather than a complete suppression of them.

Self-negation in Buddhism does not negate the inherent worth of an individual; rather, it liberates individuals from the limitations of the ego and enables them to see their interconnectedness with all of existence. The emphasis on compassion and loving-kindness towards oneself and others is proof that Buddhism values the well-being and happiness of individuals. In essence, self-negation, when properly understood and practiced, can lead to a deeper sense of purpose and fulfillment, contrary to the existential nihilism you suggested. It can open doors to profound insights about the nature of reality and provide a path towards genuine enlightenment and awakening.

 

[Foreigner]

Buddhism teaches the absence of a permanent self, which can easily be misinterpreted. It also teaches that you can "transcend" ego, as though you can go from here to there in such a dualistic way. These are both wrong teachings. I have seen sooo much nihilism and spiritual bypassing in the Buddhist world because of the philosophies of impermanence and transcendence.

You criticized Buddhism for promoting surrender and abdication, it's essential to recognize that the intention is not to negate the individual's existence but to transcend the illusion of the separate self. The ultimate goal of self-negation in Buddhism is to liberate oneself from suffering and gain a deeper understanding of reality.

There is a, let's call it, superficial/personality self that can be negated because it's an illusion that is temporal and transient (comes and goes). The true self, or what Buddhists call the Subtle Mind, is core reality and part and parcel with inseparable reality. This is similar to the Atman in Vedanta, for example. (Just a disclaimer, I'm not a hardcore adherent of Vedanta either.)

The concept of self-negation in Buddhism refers to letting go of the ego or the belief in a permanent and independent self. This doesn't mean denying one's individuality or uniqueness but rather breaking free from the attachments and illusions that cause suffering. By realizing the emptiness of inherent existence, individuals can cultivate compassion and interconnectedness with all beings.

Yes, but this doesn't go deep enough. You can't negate bedrock-awareness, which is arguably the true self. This is why I find Buddhism nihilistic: they say there is nothing permanent. I disagree... the Subtle mind, or the Atman, or whatever you want to call it, is permanent because it is, non-dualistically, part of God. All of this is God. There is one reality happening here. God never ceases. It's just that the things that we think are permanent, aren't... but that doesn't mean there is no permanence. Buddhism has the average person nihilistically flapping in the wind over its impermanence philosophy, when they need to explicitly state that what is real is permanent and always is.

The goal of cultivating compassion and interconnectedness is an attachment that obscures the fact that this true nature is already occurring. There is no goal required. You don't actually need to cultivate anything. Once core awareness is unobscured it doesn't really matter what temporal activities the mind-body gets up to, even so-called hedonistic ones. It's all just God doing itself.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't actually transcend suffering with Buddhist methods. The only way to do that is to realize who is the one who is suffering and debunk that. Practicing compassion does not negate suffering, nor does realizing the interconnectedness of all phenomena.

Even Hinduism is better at understanding this. All of the good and evil the world is just God and nothing needs to be corrected.

Buddhism negates the false self but does a terrible job at exemplifying the true self. So people end up falling into nihilism without ever connecting with what is real, besides the transient peace they acquire from meditating.

Buddhism teaches that suffering arises from craving, desire, and attachment. By negating the self in the sense of releasing clinging to ego-driven desires, individuals can achieve a profound sense of freedom and peace. The practice of self-negation helps individuals to let go of the relentless pursuit of pleasure and the fear of pain, leading to a balanced and contented state of mind.

This works if you're a monk living in a monastery where everything is provided to you and you get to cloister yourself away from the harsh realities and temptations of the world. Otherwise, it leads to nihilism and self-deprivation.

The karma of the mind-body doesn't cease just because realization is attained. There is still pain and suffering. The difference is that the non-attached person releases it as soon as it's over, it does not form an imprint on the mind-body.

The pursuit of freedom and peace is part and parcel with the goal-oriented spiritual mindset.

Buddhism emphasizes the Middle Way, which avoids extremes and encourages a harmonious and balanced approach to life. You
criticized Buddhist practitioners for appearing lifeless and suppressed, this might result from a misinterpretation or a misguided application of the teachings. Buddhism advocates for the skillful management of emotions and desires rather than a complete suppression of them.

I'm not misguided and I didn't misinterpret anything. I understood it perfectly, I just disagree with it and accuse it if being an incomplete, non-holistic philosophy. That's all.

There are plenty of stories of enlightened people on this planet who awakened/attained realization through extreme circumstances. There is no "middle way," there is only what is real. Attachment to a middle path is another obscuration because you become focused on doing or not doing certain things. Practices become doctrines, doctrines become dogma, then suddenly you are doing (or not doing) things for the sake of it, which has nothing to do with realization.

I want the truth. I don't give two shits about avoidance of suffering.

Self-negation in Buddhism does not negate the inherent worth of an individual; rather, it liberates individuals from the limitations of the ego and enables them to see their interconnectedness with all of existence. The emphasis on compassion and loving-kindness towards oneself and others is proof that Buddhism values the well-being and happiness of individuals. In essence, self-negation, when properly understood and practiced, can lead to a deeper sense of purpose and fulfillment, contrary to the existential nihilism you suggested. It can open doors to profound insights about the nature of reality and provide a path towards genuine enlightenment and awakening.

I don't care about compassion and lovingkindness as doctrines. I care about what is real.

Buddhism is a path of avoidance where people tip-toe around getting burned, when some people should really just let themselves dive into the fire and be consumed by it. For many of us, the crucible is way more instructive.

In other words... don't avoid suffering. Instead, go out into the world and suffer in the extreme, all while keeping a profound wish to know the truth in your heart of hearts. Eventually you will awaken to the absurdity of it all.

How are you going to awaken when you are busy depriving your human-level self of its individuated nature?

Buddhism taught me about the nature of mind. That's about it.

The mind-body (and so-called ego) can be tracked all the way back to the truth because they are emanations of it. The individuated nature is part and parcel with the absolute. I feel that the pursuit of compassion and lovingkindness are attempts to materially mimic the bliss of True Nature, but they only end up becoming misattributions. Buddhism would have us go out into Samsara and do good deeds in order to accumulate merit and good karma, without properly teaching that these things are also part of Samsara.

When the teachings about self-negation become too esoteric, as is the case with Buddhism and all of its insanely, unnecessarily complex rituals, the individual can easily fall into Nihilism... which I have seen over and over in Buddhist institutions.

If someone really wants to know the truth about reality - I mean, deeply, profoundly has a wish in their heart of hearts to know - then it's not likely they will find it in Buddhism. It's a pacifist philosophy of self-negation that seriously believes if you sit there meditating all day, negate your true individuation to the Absolute, and practice endless ritual, that you may awaken in a few decades or so. But only after you've dished out thousands of dollars to attend "empowerment" rituals with weird deities and listen to culturally-specific chants by distant Rinpoches. Yeah OK.

I think Buddhism is a genuine path to enlightenment, but as it is currently taught in the west, it is too convoluted.

 

[RUC4]

I want the truth. I don't give two shits about avoidance of suffering.

lol. It's only when you have no suffering that you have the freedom to find and see the truth. Suffering will cloud your eyes, and if you find the truth, you may not care to acknowledge it or accept it. This could go on. ....

You're overlooking essential aspects of the teachings that contribute to personal growth and understanding. Compassion and lovingkindness are not merely doctrines in Buddhism; they form the foundation of a wholesome and interconnected life. By cultivating these qualities, individuals learn to empathize with others, develop genuine connections, and contribute positively to society. The idea that one should embrace suffering to achieve awakening neglects the wisdom of the Middle Way, which advocates for a balanced approach to life's challenges. Buddhism does not advocate for blind avoidance of suffering but encourages understanding its nature and finding ways to alleviate it both in oneself and others. Furthermore, the practice of meditation and self-reflection is not about self-negation, but rather a means to gain insight into the true nature of the mind and reality. While Buddhism may have complex rituals and traditions, these can offer profound symbolic meaning and serve as a way to connect with the teachings on a deeper level. Rather than dismissing Buddhism as convoluted, we should recognize its potential to provide guidance and transformation for those who approach it with an open heart and a genuine desire to seek truth and compassion.

 

[Foreigner]

lol. It's only when you have no suffering that you have the freedom to find and see the truth. Suffering will cloud your eyes, and if you find the truth, you may not care to acknowledge it or accept it. This could go on. ....

That's one possibility, it's not the only one. Sometimes suffering gets so extreme that your belief is suspended and you see the absurdity / reality of existence. Suffering is a well worn path to awakening. That's what happened to me.

You're overlooking essential aspects of the teachings that contribute to personal growth and understanding. Compassion and lovingkindness are not merely doctrines in Buddhism; they form the foundation of a wholesome and interconnected life. By cultivating these qualities, individuals learn to empathize with others, develop genuine connections, and contribute positively to society. The idea that one should embrace suffering to achieve awakening neglects the wisdom of the Middle Way, which advocates for a balanced approach to life's challenges. Buddhism does not advocate for blind avoidance of suffering but encourages understanding its nature and finding ways to alleviate it both in oneself and others. Furthermore, the practice of meditation and self-reflection is not about self-negation, but rather a means to gain insight into the true nature of the mind and reality. While Buddhism may have complex rituals and traditions, these can offer profound symbolic meaning and serve as a way to connect with the teachings on a deeper level. Rather than dismissing Buddhism as convoluted, we should recognize its potential to provide guidance and transformation for those who approach it with an open heart and a genuine desire to seek truth and compassion.

Those are all great things for leading a wholesome life that is positive and uplifting. Which is all that most people are looking for. They just want to make Samsara more comfortable. I'm not saying that's invalid but it's not what I'm after.

I had a deep and profound wish to see the truth of reality. Fuck comfort, compassion, a painless life, better relationships. None of those things are relevant to the search for truth. If anything they are additional obscurations. I was willing to experience whatever it took to make me snap out of Samsara and that's exactly what happened.

There is no formula for awakening or enlightenment. They are spontaneous and often rooted in a profound core wish to know what is real.

 

[RUC4]

That's one possibility, it's not the only one. Sometimes suffering gets so extreme that your belief is suspended and you see the absurdity / reality of existence. Suffering is a well worn path to awakening. That's what happened to me.


Those are all great things for leading a wholesome life that is positive and uplifting. Which is all that most people are looking for. They just want to make Samsara more comfortable. I'm not saying that's invalid but it's not what I'm after.

I had a deep and profound wish to see the truth of reality. Fuck comfort, compassion, a painless life, better relationships. None of those things are relevant to the search for truth. If anything they are additional obscurations. I was willing to experience whatever it took to make me snap out of Samsara and that's exactly what happened.

There is no formula for awakening or enlightenment. They are spontaneous and often rooted in a profound core wish to know what is real.

A man never crosses the same river twice, because he's not the same man, and it's not the same river.

I always enjoy conversations like this. I've appreciated this one. It's important to be able to discuss things we think about and believe without having discord. It's rare. I would love to hear more about your views. You're intelligent and articulate.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Great discussion indeed.

 

[Foreigner]

A man never crosses the same river twice, because he's not the same man, and it's not the same river.

Can you expand on what you're saying here?

I always enjoy conversations like this. I've appreciated this one. It's important to be able to discuss things we think about and believe without having discord. It's rare. I would love to hear more about your views. You're intelligent and articulate.

Thank you, so are you.

I think Buddhism is a great philosophy for life. I personally think it doesn't go far enough if enlightenment is to be attained.

But then again, most eastern religions are that way. "It's all just God and nothing has its own independent substance. It's all Samsara. But here, these rituals and beliefs are real and true. Do them!"

If we take the basic premise of non-duality to be true, then it should apply to everything at all times. I don't see what living a compassionate life has to do with that, other than reinforcing the illusion of the person and that that person is "good."

 

[RUC4]

Can you expand on what you're saying here?

Sure. It means you will never experience the same thing twice, and you and I will never experience the same thing. There is something unique in every approach, if it's not the person, it's the circumstance or perception of information.

If we take the basic premise of non-duality to be true, then it should apply to everything at all times. I don't see what living a compassionate life has to do with that, other than reinforcing the illusion of the person and that that person is "good."

Agreed.

I would love to hear your thoughts on Taoism.

 

[Foreigner]

Sure. It means you will never experience the same thing twice, and you and I will never experience the same thing. There is something unique in every approach, if it's not the person, it's the circumstance or perception of information.

I see what you're saying now. Yes... there is no formula really, there are only some guidelines and various traditions to help us out. I think the words enlightenment, awakening, realization, etc... are problematic. They create goals and lay people who haven't yet figured it out start adhering to programs instead of using the programs as platforms to let go.

It seems like enlightenment either happens spontaneously, i.e. under duress, or the individual has a deep profound wish to know the truth, so they find their way to it through whatever system. In Vedanta, they say that so-called enlightenment is impossible without that deep longing.

Agreed.

I would love to hear your thoughts on Taoism.

Just a disclaimer, I love Daoism... I practice classical Chinese medicine which is steeped in Daoist philosophy. Daoism is more "pure" in the sense that it tends to refuse to directly describe the thing we are trying to achieve, which to me is slightly more honest. It does so indirectly. However, it's still a difficult path because it is steeped in esotericism that is misleading. They also still believe in karma.

This is what I'm talking about. How are you ever going to get the individual to realize that the "person" is part of Samsara if you keep telling them that they have an individuated accounting system.

Buddhism and Daoism are still caught in trying to explain the reasons for cause and effect, when the truth is that there is no cause and effect. Why is it so difficult for them to teach people to abide in the unknown? And isn't it just a tad bit convenient that we supposedly have all this karma from a past life that we simply can't remember yet still suffer the consequences of?

I'll answer my own question: because this cosmic record keeping system keeps people accountable to the authorities of the traditions and it gives the leaders a means of morally structuring society. There's nothing bad about that per se, but it does underscore that most humans have to be told what to do.

At the end of the day these are all religions and you need to let go of structures if you want to be free. The religions themselves are attachments that obscure reality.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I don't care about compassion and lovingkindness as doctrines. I care about what is real.

Buddhism is a path of avoidance where people tip-toe around getting burned, when some people should really just let themselves dive into the fire and be consumed by it. For many of us, the crucible is way more instructive.

In other words... don't avoid suffering. Instead, go out into the world and suffer in the extreme, all while keeping a profound wish to know the truth in your heart of hearts. Eventually you will awaken to the absurdity of it all.

How are you going to awaken when you are busy depriving your human-level self of its individuated nature?

I could quote so many lines that Foreigner posted on this thread but this one stood out to me 100% for being The Truth.

 

[iridescentblack]

Is there anything more you can say on what the real self is like?