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Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

pulverstaden said:
About cops in America; what the fuck is going on!? I've seen them choke out 14-year olds, even punching them while having them in submission, beating on 13-year olds, cuffing 6-year olds, throwing young teens around like trashdolls, beating the shit out of women and men, shooting people sitting perfectly still in their cars... I astounded there hasn't been a violent uprising yet. It's so far from my reality, and it makes me furious, raging.
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The murder of Timothy Brenton occurred on October 31, 2009, in the Central District of Seattle, Washington, United States. Timothy Quinn Brenton (February 9, 1970 – October 31, 2009),[1] an officer with the Seattle Police Department (SPD), was seated in a parked patrol car with another officer discussing a traffic stop when a gunman stopped his vehicle alongside the patrol car, opened fire on both officers, and fled the scene. Brenton died at the scene and his partner sustained minor injuries.[2] One week later, as a public memorial service for Brenton was being held at KeyArena, the gunman was apprehended and seriously wounded after being shot by police officers in Tukwila.

The shooting is believed to have been a targeted attack against police officers in general, not against either officer individually. The suspect arrested in connection with the murder, Christopher Monfort, was also charged in connection with the October 22, 2009, firebombing of Seattle police vehicles at a city maintenance facility.[3] No clear motive was established, but he had left behind fliers discussing police brutality, and had expressed opinions against wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was accused by authorities of being a terrorist who waged a "one-man war" against the police.[4]
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Murder of Timothy Brenton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

It doesn't really mention it in that article, but the incident that kicked off that attack was a videotape of a young girl getting assaulted in a prison cell by one of those hair-trigger goons who occupy many positions in law enforcement and corrections. It's an issue that has been simmering in this country for a long time, only to explode in Summer 2020

Fascist, ultranationalist and/or reactionary movements always find early support among military and state security services. It's part of that whole martial spirit and "respect my authoritah!" attitude that such ideologies fetishize. It's not even a necessarily a bad thing, as there is definitely room in this society for the warrior ethos and/or people who are willing to fight for justice. But it's been taken waaaay to far, people have leaned way too heavily into this mindset of the police being an occupying army and the citizens being potential insurgents. That's incredibly destructive for any kind of republic that supposedly grants rights to its citizens. I'm glad that things popped off in this country over the issue of police misconduct...anyone who views the excesses of the movement (burning, looting etc) and the danger of ochlarchy as being greater than the danger of condensed power in the form of a militarized state security service with practically unlimited control over the lives of everyday citizens...they need to get their head on straight and see the direction that this country and this world is headed in. The danger of a closed-ranks, militarized police service at the head of sophisticated system of surveillance and repression is a far greater threat to your rights and freedoms than a bunch of looters or people who want to police your pronouns or "defund the police"
 
Burnt Offerings said:
I'm glad that things popped off in this country over the issue of police misconduct...anyone who views the excesses of the movement (burning, looting etc) and the danger of ochlarchy as being greater than the danger of condensed power in the form of a militarized state security service with practically unlimited control over the lives of everyday citizens...they need to get their head on straight and see the direction that this country and this world is headed in. The danger of a closed-ranks, militarized police service at the head of sophisticated system of surveillance and repression is a far greater threat to your rights and freedoms than a bunch of looters or people who want to police your pronouns or "defund the police"
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Amen, brother. The moral outrage over BLM is a (highly effective) smokescreen. I support the police as human individuals, and I also support this movement. We have asked our police to fill too many roles, and have no trained them to accomplish what we've asked of them. We've engineered a situation where cops AND the civilians they are serving are both endangered far beyond what is sensible. Someone, many Americans think that supporting the police means continuing to give them tanks and military weapons. Puzzlingly, these are usually the same people who are scared of the government taking their guns in order to stage a hostile takeover. Why aren't they deeply concerned about police departments buying tanks and military weapons?
 
JessFR said:
You only need adjust the stats for population size and it's still abundantly clear that there's something very wrong with policing in America.
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The statistics don't reflect a significant racist issue with police in the US relative to other countries, which is what this thread is about.

Do police kill more people in the US than other countries?

Sure.

US = 28.4 / 10mill
NZ = 2.1 / 10mill

But that has a lot more to do other factors than race.
 
Yeah I'd say that's pretty much right on. The culture and training of American police is awful. The training is traumatic and they're also expected to be mediators and crisis counselors and various other roles they're not properly prepared for. They're trained to de-escalate situations with aggression and force and guns leading. It's a recipe for disaster, and it's created a vicious cycle because the situation is so strained and violent that cops actually are in more danger than they used to be.

I think, other than for the actual racists in the system, it probably mostly boils down to the cop is more likely not to feel physically threatened if they're dealing with a rich white person, so they're going to be more at ease and less defensive.
 
There are no compelling statistics in terms of cops shooting black people in the US (per encounter) or cops shooting unarmed people, black or otherwise (per encounter). BLM is founded on the assumption that something exists. It doesn't exist.

The question with black people is: why are there a disproportionate amount of encounters with black male citizens within a certain age bracket?

Black people are not shot more, per encounter. That is false.

I don't think police training is the problem. I don't think police reform is the problem. There is a crime problem in many areas. If you retrain the police, that problem will still exist.

It is very unusual for police to fatally shoot innocent unarmed people who are doing nothing wrong. It happens (very occasionally) because we are talking about one third of a billion people... most of whom have guns.

It's easier to just point at the police and say they are to blame. The problem is complex. It is cultural, not racial. The solution is not obvious.
 
Easy for you to say, man, sitting over there in NZ. I agree it's a complex problem, but there is a racial element. However you want to explain how it got that way (as you say, why are there a disproportionate number of encounters? Why is there all that crime). This is exactly what I mean, the way you talk about it brushes aside a big part of the cultural and police problems in America. The very cultural problem you reference is partly due to racism, and it has been since way before civil rights. It is a part of what America's problem is. It certainly isn't all of it though.
 
It's not any easier for me to observe statistics in NZ than it is in the US. Statistics are statistics. Perhaps there is a conspiracy at play, distorting the stats. That's possible, but unlikely.

Xorkoth said:
The very cultural problem you reference is partly due to racism, and it has been since way before civil rights.
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No. Why there so much crime is somewhat of a complex question, but people have attempted to answer it. If you graph African American crime in the US, it wasn't actually always like this. Crime increased dramatically in black neighbourhoods at a certain point.

What happened, racially, that caused the destruction of African American communities?

Welfare?
 
@Xorkoth, I can't help but feel that there's some judgement towards me from you over a couple of CEPS threads in the past couple of days. I'm happy to break down the issues with you and look at the data. If I'm wrong, I will admit I'm wrong and apologise. I don't think judgement is necessary. I like you. I'm on your side.

wo1fg4ng said:
I listen to them.
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I am listening. You're not saying anything.
 
TheLoveBandit said:
This is off topic, but it is more mockery than hypocrisy. The deaths the progressives want to pin on Trump without holding governors accountable for their more direct control over citizens lives, this opened the door for the mockery of Biden. Not saying it's right.
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Trump pitted the governors against each other in bidding for PPE and other resources related to COVID. Richer states (and better connected ones) fared better, which some people were likely just fine with. The vaccine rollout was also a disaster and I’m shocked at how quickly the Biden administration has gotten a handle on it.

TheLoveBandit said:
WHISTLEBLOWER: Coca-Cola Forces Employees to Complete Online Training Telling Them to "Try to be Less White" (PHOTOS + VIDEO)


To be less white is to:
  • Be less oppressive
  • Be less arrogant
  • Be less certain
  • Be less defensive
  • Be less arrogant
  • Be more humble
  • Listen
  • Believe
  • Break with apathy
  • Break with white solidarity


= = = = = = =

While some of those goals are universally desired (Listen, Be more humble less arrogant, etc), I am offended they label that as white behaviour, when in fact people of all races exhibit such behaviours, the good and bad ones.
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This was just a bad idea, whoever had it.
pulverstaden said:
Did Martin out of the blue attack an innocent Zimmerman, him being shot is not Zimmmermans fault.

But I don't buy into that scenario, and unless I see a video showing this, I'm not gonna buy into it, no matter what you say or argue.
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I think Zimmerman menaced Martin with his gun to intimidate Martin, leading Martin to attack out of fear for his life.
I’m not going to fight about it, it’s just what I think.
 
cduggles said:
Trump pitted the governors against each other in bidding for PPE and other resources related to COVID.
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Your interpretation. Mine is that under Obama, despite warnings, the reserves of ventilators and such was allowed to fall. Trump, recognizing his limitations, encouraged Governors to do all they could at their level while he helped with makeshift hospitals and even providing Navy hospitals....which went unused.
 
TheLoveBandit said:
Your interpretation. Mine is that under Obama, despite warnings, the reserves of ventilators and such was allowed to fall. Trump, recognizing his limitations, encouraged Governors to do all they could at their level while he helped with makeshift hospitals and even providing Navy hospitals....which went unused.
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Yes, those inept governors initiated restrictions to flatten the curve.
(And it was apparently quite difficult to transfer patients to the makeshift hospital.)
This is just one article and it’s not too biased:

NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

www.npr.org
 

Boston Public Schools Suspends Test For Advanced Learning Classes; Concerns About Program’s Racial Inequities Linger​



A selective program for high-performing fourth, fifth and sixth graders in Boston has suspended enrollment due to the pandemic and concerns about equity in the program, GBH News has learned.

Superintendent Brenda Cassellius recommended the one-year hiatus for the program, known as Advanced Work Classes, saying the district would not proceed with the program for new students next year.

"There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education."

Following publication of this story, Cassellius told GBH News that equity concerns about the advance work program were not the motivation for suspension of the test this year. She said the test suspension was only a consequence of the pandemic making it impossible to administer the test.


^^Bold by me, pointing out that there was clarification that the testing was suspended basedon Covid restrictionts not race concerns.

vvvv However, you can see where race equity (and declining interest) are factors in suspending the coursework (again, bold by me):


A district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black.

School Committee member Lorna Rivera said at a January meeting that she was disturbed by the findings, noting that nearly 60 percent of fourth graders in the program at the Ohrenberger school in West Roxbury are white even though most third graders enrolled at the school are Black and Hispanic.

"This is just not acceptable," Rivera said at a recent school committee meeting. "I've never heard these statistics before, and I'm very very disturbed by them."

The program was open to all students in the Boston Public Schools who took a test known as Terra Nova in the third grade and received a high score. Those students were placed in a lottery conducted by the central administration office, and lottery winners received letters inviting them to apply to the program. Last fall, 453 students received invitations, 143 students applied and 116 enrolled this year, officials said.

Students in the program have the opportunity to study subjects in greater depth and are offered more schoolwork than the traditional curriculum requires.


The first quote notes that Covid has brought to light racial inequities? WTF? The racial makeup of these courses is irrelevant to race, and has been there before COVID, so I can't agree with that statement. I would say it's more a matter of BLM raising a spotlight to it, and not COVID. However, if the exams are performance based as indicated, that means EVERY student has an equal chance at getting invited to the program. EVERY CHILD. The second quote highlights the disparity, but it also speaks to "453 students received invitations, 143 applied and 116 enrolled". There's no indication of the makeup of those 453 invited. Can we explore that, to see if racially there are more population aligned candidates for the program? And if so, WHY blacks and Hispanics are choosing not to enroll? I'm not saying its the case, but it's a possibility that should be explored.

I expect some will say my question above dodges the base (assumed) reality., that there are 'systemic' reasons blacks and Hispanics are not enrolled, such as the testing is racially biased. I'm still not accepting this, but will acknowledge it as a talking point given how at colleges and universities we have also traditionally seen white and Asian kids excel, and be heavily represented. With this line of argument, we go back to asking what are the 'systemic' reasons for this and what to do about it. For me, taking away courses that help those advanced students is NOT the answer. Keep the accelerated programs, but try to understand why blacks and Hispanics are not being invited, or not accepting the invites and enrolling. But, do NOT punish those who quality. That only damages that generation and their potential, which effects all of us as a nation going forward.
 
Ivy League University Offers Rock Climbing Class — No White Students Allowed


Cornell University was offering a racially-segregated rock climbing class for their students physical education — but no white students allowed.​

The physical education class, “BIPOC Rock Climbing,” was originally slated to be restricted to “people who identify as Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian, or other people of color.”

After Campus Reform reached out the university for comment about the discrimination, the course description was edited to state that the class is “designed to enable Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian, or other people of color underrepresented in the sport of rock climbing to learn the sport and to feel included and supported.”

“Graduates of this course will have the knowledge and skills to push themselves to new challenges while climbing safely and responsibly. We will also talk about BIPOC individuals and groups in rock climbing,” the original description stated. “This class is for people who identify as Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian, or other people of color.”
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So, quite literally, everyone except white students.

When reached by Campus Reform, John Carberry, Cornell’s Senior Director of Media Relations and News, claimed that “all Cornell students” are “welcome” to enroll in the course.

“All Cornell students are welcome to enroll in this course. While the original description of the course represented an intentional focus on outreach and inclusion, there was never an intent to exclude non-minority students. The description of the course has been adjusted accordingly,” Carberry said.

New York State law says that “students in New York schools are protected by federal, state, and local laws that prevent discrimination on the basis of race, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, religion, disability, and other categories.”

Campus Reform also noted that New York Human Rights Law “makes it illegal” for “non-sectarian educational institutions” to “deny their services to students on the basis of race, color, religion, disability, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, age or marital status.”


Absurdity. I get the desire to create 'safe' spaces for certain groups, but I cannot abide by restrictions that are unequally applied. If there were a 'white only' course, it would be demonized, the school protested, and perhaps professors fired. I'm all for equality, but in achieving it, I expect equality and not selective application of such rules.
 
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