Social Justice Black Lives Matter Discussion Thread

[Xorkoth]

@Xorkoth

They had no chance of undermining democracy. You are giving them more power than they deserve. I hear all this hype from the anti-Trump crowd about how the world is ending. The world isn't ending. The Washington Post said "Democracy Dies in Darkness" during Trump's entire first term, but - lo and behold - democracy is alive and well.

The Capitol riots were terrible, obviously. Nobody is arguing otherwise. The difference between BLM and the Capitol riots is: the latter is an example of the system working. The Capitol riots were condemned. Those responsible have been held accountable.

If a rally has any white supremacist element, it is condemned and everyone who attends is guilty by association, but it seems like BLM rallies can do and say whatever they damn please?

Yet it was still an attempt. I'm not saying it almost succeeded. I'm just saying it's a different thing with a different cause than the violence at the BLM protests. I am more concerned about the push towards that sort of violence than I am about the type of violence we've seen at some of the BLM protests. If people got more organized and were able to communicate secretly (like on Telegram channels, which is one place they have move discussion to once Parler was shut down), it is conceivable that they could succeed at some point in doing what they attempted.

I am not saying everyone who participated at the protest was guilty, in fact I said exactly the opposite in a previous post today, that those who did not storm the capitol were perfectly within their rights.

So by the same token, let's not group the entire BLM movement in with a small minority of people and individual protests in which some people got violent.

 

[SKL]

In fact it is the single best example of an attempt by the citizenry to undermine our system that has ever happened. Even in the Civil War, it was an attempt to secede and become a separate entity.

With all due respect to the fact that the incident at the Capitol made great television, I'd assign the dubious honor of biggest recent incident to be a threat to our system since the 1860's to the 100-some night seige of the federal building in Portland. It was less impressive but the fundamentals and intent were actually more alarming.

And to go to history, things happened like Shay's rebellion (to go way back) and various low intensity conflicts mostly West, as from premonitions of the Civil War to the conflict in Athens, GA in 1946 to early 20th century labor disputes with early automatic weapons, are all worth mentioning. In fact, I only mention antifa vs Portland because it was a federal building and the attacks were abetted by state and local government. More recent stuff like the Rodney King riots, 60s unrest, Oklahoma city, even Ted Kaczynski rates too. The past year has been crazy but the 90s and 60s-70s were pretty crazy too. The whole century has been crazy. The last century was crazy...and the one before that.

As for the Capitol riot, it was at heart a crowd control problem. The people who wound up in side clearly weren't expecting to do so. The rhetoric was hot and ill-advised ("hang Mike Pence"), yes, but it was a bunch of hot air. Trump's words can be twisted to seem to invite this just as they were twisted to invite Russian election interference, but he didn't premeditate the riot either. He had no plan and neither did the rioters. (He did deal with it poorly. Side note: if reports are true that Pence ordered the NG movement, this amounts to an overt low key coup. Disturbing.)

The crowd was mostly peaceful, heck, they they kept within the crowd dividers inside the atrium. No attempt was made to lynch anybody. I bring more firepower to the range on a Saturday than was taken off everyone who was arrested (Molotov cocktails excepted, but that was one crazy person) and there's no evidence many more people were armed or that anyone intended to use weapons at all.

Overall the thing is overhyped, overinterpreted, and memed up to high heaven. It was a crazy thing that our kids and their kids will learn about in history books, but calling it an insurrection and an attack on our system of government is really a stretch (there's a very real potential our kids will learn about it that way though.)

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree some people who got in were just following the crowd. And I also agree that it was a pitiful attempt, but on the other hand, people believed that the president had their backs and was going to be with them and would protect them, because of all the nonsense they'd been fed by QAnon and Trump himself. People were on camera saying that they thought this was "the revolution" and that they were taking back their country. These people were pretty detached from reality, but they believed they were going to successfully overturn the election certification, and that was what they were attempting to do.

You can't just say "well it didn't work and couldn't have worked" and therefore it was no big deal. Intent is a huge part of any crime.

 

[Xorkoth]

Also I will again disagree that the intent of the Portland events is more alarming. The intent there was to force police reform, whereas the intent of the other was to subvert the election. The electoral process is the core of our functioning system, without that, we don't have a democracy at all. To me that is much more alarming than an extended protest event to try to get government to change policing policies.

And now we discover that it took the Pentagon over 3 hours to respond to an emergency call for support. That, too, is alarming, because it suggests that there was an attempt from higher up to prevent an increase in the ability to control the crowd.

 

[SKL]

People were on camera saying that they thought this was "the revolution" and that they were taking back their country.

You'd hear this kind of talk at, e.g. Occupy Wall Street (which is somewhere in the DNA of what happened) all the time. People get excited. Perhaps all the more so when being filmed.

A Capitol police officer was beaten to death with a fire extinguisher, and many more officers were badly injured in riot encouraged by the former President saying, “we love you and are with you”, speaking directly to the insurrection.

The purported lethal fire extinguisher assault didn't happen. Even if it did: cops were hurt, yes, and that's deplorable. Circle back to "crowd management issue." A person is smart, people are stupid, the madness of crowds, there's always a problem with bad actors (bad apples?), etc. Whenever things get out of control like this, people get hurt, including officers, as they did in the race riots over the summer. Could've been prevented with adequate police staffing—yes, that was a big unforced error on the part of law enforcement. None of this goes to incitement of insurrection. Even the excited utterances of the ever-excitable Trump. Some of the stuff he said was a bad look and the idea that the results were going to be overturned was a delusion but the whole incident still isn't anything more than a case of mismanaged things getting out of hand. The insurrection narrative just doesn't hold water. What happened was bad (and extremely memorable), don't get me wrong, but it takes a very forced interpretation of things to arrive at that interpretation.

 

[Xorkoth]

I dunno man, to me it looks like a clear case of incitement to install Trump as the president again no matter what. Trump stated from the beginning that the only way he'd lose was if there was voter fraud. Then he lied and lied and lied and repeatedly pushed the voter fraud narrative, and then branded a "Stop the Steal" movement. Widespread fraud. We won, they cheated. They took our country. You need to fight for your country. Then "somehow" no help came for over 3 hours despite an emergency call begging for help. And Trump didn't do a single thing to help, just watched it on TV despite people begging him to say something to calm them down, until hours later. People built a fucking gallows and were chanting "hang Mike Pence". That's not people getting excited in the heat of the moment. Though, yeah, I think some of the people who stormed the capitol had no intention of being violent and were pulled along in the moment, who thought they were invited by Trump and were making history. But there were numerous people there who knew exactly what they were doing and were prepared for what happened, like the guy who brought a bunch of zip ties in with him, just as one example. And whoever built the gallows. It's dangerous to excuse what happened as "just people excited in the heat of the moment". Some of them, absolutely. But there was also an attempt to subvert the democratic process.

I think Trump was hoping it would work, and when it didn't, he tried to save face, quite poorly. Do you really think he would have denounced what happened if it had worked?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

the acceptance of white supremacy

Nobody is accepting or embracing white supremacy. There are racists in both the democratic party and the republican party. I honestly don't know which party is less racist.

let's not group the entire BLM movement in with a small minority of people and individual protests in which some people got violent.

I didn't do that - the murderers at BLM rallies are not the same as people yelling into megaphones - but the violence is not the only thing that bothers me about BLM... It is also dangerous when it is non-violent, because it is pushing a false narrative that is inciting God-knows how many other unreported incidents of racial violence. It is dividing the population via hateful lies. This is not a small minority. The core of the movement is false. I have never seen anybody officially associated with BLM willing to have an open and honest conversation. One of the main tactics used by BLM activists is shutting down speech. I'm not grouping them in with the murderers, but I see no value in any of it.

it is conceivable that they could succeed at some point in doing what they attempted

What is conceivable?
That they will undermine democracy?

like the guy who brought a bunch of zip ties in with him, just as one example. And whoever built the gallows.

Zip ties are pretty lethal.

Do we have a picture of the gallows?

 

[cduggles]

Entire DC Guard, plus 500 from MD and others from VA, activated after pro-Trump protesters storm Capitol

More than 1,000 National Guard troops have been activated in response to the siege on the Capitol building.`

www.federaltimes.com

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Well that doesn't look structurally sound.

Does anyone know how much Pence weighs?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

It seems that the racists that use to be silenced by previous social norms and polite society, are gaining strength and notoriety and have latched themselves to the Republican Party.

It doesn't seem that way to me.

White racism is more silenced now than ever.

 

[SvnLyrBrto]

As for the Capitol riot, it was at heart a crowd control problem. The people who wound up in side clearly weren't expecting to do so. The rhetoric was hot and ill-advised ("hang Mike Pence"), yes, but it was a bunch of hot air. Trump's words can be twisted to seem to invite this just as they were twisted to invite Russian election interference, but he didn't premeditate the riot either. He had no plan and neither did the rioters. (He did deal with it poorly. Side note: if reports are true that Pence ordered the NG movement, this amounts to an overt low key coup. Disturbing.)

The crowd was mostly peaceful, heck, they they kept within the crowd dividers inside the atrium. No attempt was made to lynch anybody. I bring more firepower to the range on a Saturday than was taken off everyone who was arrested (Molotov cocktails excepted, but that was one crazy person) and there's no evidence many more people were armed or that anyone intended to use weapons at all.

If it was just a bunch of hot air, with no actual intent to attack or lynch anybody, why did they bring the tasers and zip-tie handcuffs?

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

It doesn't seem that way to me.

White racism is more silenced now than ever.

Nooo you're devaluing your coup argument by mixing all that into this, please stick to more tangible things, like this "coup" nonsense. It has been so obviously sensationalized leading to some kind of proof and justification of years of dehumanizing Trump supporters and republicans, by media and people themselves. Hated seeing it all play out, and I heavily dislike Trump, as I heavily dislike Biden, as should most clear thinking people.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I heavily dislike Trump, as I heavily dislike Biden, as should most clear thinking people.

Should clear thinking people heavily dislike all politicians?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@

Black racists love Trump?

 

[SKL]

Also I will again disagree that the intent of the Portland events is more alarming. The intent there was to force police reform, whereas the intent of the other was to subvert the election. The electoral process is the core of our functioning system, without that, we don't have a democracy at all. To me that is much more alarming than an extended protest event to try to get government to change policing policies.

The seige at Portland was an attack on our federal system of government and on good order in general. It was far beyond a protest about police brutality even if that's where it started. It became a continuous, I'll go ahead and use the word insurrection, with rhetoric about all kinds of stuff. They wanted to take and/or destroy that courthouse and they tried to every night for months. They were using Moltovs and the like in spades. Federal LEOs were getting hurt every night. That's a whoke different level. What's more, they were abetted by the local government, if we're talking about alarming threats to constitutional order.

If it was just a bunch of hot air, with no actual intent to attack or lynch anybody, why did they bring the tasers and zip-tie handcuffs?

You didn't mention pepper spray but I'll start there. Especially since Charlottesville, where that idiot Tim "Baked Alaska" took a faceful of the stuff from a leftist counterprotester, but in an escalating way over the summer, it's become a part of the kit that people in spades take to protests. As for the trader and zip-ties, you're talking about one very striking photograph. I can't say for sure but I bet that what was going on there was that he was one of those "tacti-cool" dude-bros that infest gun culture. The guy with too many cheap accessories on his AR-15 who also has a knife collection. That's just how idiots like that roll. Zero evidence any of it was a part of some concerted effort.

The insurrection narrative is taking little bits of this and little bits of that from here and there. Posts on theDonald.win, selective quotes from the Donald himself, particularly egregious acts by individuals, striking photographs and interviews of other individuals. In short, this:

Spoiler

It's a conspiracy theory. You see people do this after major events—you see it do it to deny the moon landing, or to place extra shooters at the site of various massacres. In a big enough shitshow, you can find pieces of "evidence" with which to construct a narrative that sounds compelling when it's presented without a view for the forest as well as the trees. Unfortunately in this case, the anti-Trumpers in the media and establishment are presenting this same narrative as objective truth, even in the way this event is named: calling it "insurrection," to use the biggest example.

It was a riot. It was a massively badly handled crowd control situation. There was a lot of our of control rhetoric. There were a number of nutjobs spouting craziness and bad actors doing bad things. Trump handled it in an absolutely spastic manner. These things just don't add up to insurrection. That's just conspiratorial thinking and sensationalism.

 

[deficiT]

Why in a population of a third of a billion people do we keep hearing about the same woman?

Because her death is an example of police being able to kill unarmed people with impunity and get off without charge.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Should clear thinking people heavily dislike all politicians?

No of course not, there are many politicians that I would consider incompetent or just populists, but that doesn't make them terrible human beings.
Both Trump and Biden are imo terrible men that have actively done terrible things, and have sold their soul to equally reprehensible people. I get that it comes with the territory, but luckily there were already many years before presidency

 

[birdup.snaildown]

her death is an example

Are there a lack of examples?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Buzz Lightbeer

I still kind of like Trump, even though he's a terrible person. Biden (on the other hand) I dislike. I'm not convinced he's corrupt or soulless or evil. I think he's probably a nice guy and a good father, but he's an incompetent moron.

 

[deficiT]

Are there a lack of examples?

No there are plenty of examples. Like this.