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Bisexuals! hey you. i have a question...

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But we overwhelm them when you provide the mathematical treatments needed to make an algorithm for their PS3 work, or when someone like me keeps their lights on, with the added bonus of not having a superprompt critical power excursion at the generating station.

In short, I think geeks should go on strike.
this is only true because people are not taught to think for themselves. You have to have a very strong personality to break free of the conditioning. Education needs to change, then you will see you are not that superior, and that everyone has their skills, their own kind of intelligence and ways of dealing with things - yours is quite a closeminded way of looking at things.

Not everyone works with linear logic.

Overuse of logic and analysis is a curse for some people too - it can lead to such indecision, through constant lateral thinking, that they actually achieve nothing - like a deer in headlights, so they become failures or easily led.


This conversation has gone WAAAAAAAAY off-track/.
 
Everyone has a skill. I don't look at someone who doesn't have 150 credits in bio and chem as being dumb if they don't understand. I respect people for using their talent to its full potential. I probably have more respect for people who have a talent that I don't have. Or maybe it's envy. ;)

I think it's more that people are lazy and don't want to put in the work. That's a huge turnoff.
 
I dumb down what I say sometimes so that people aren't totally put off, but honestly, if the average person can't handle my intelligence, then fuck them. The way I talk and write is not out of arrogance, it's just how I conceptualize ideas and express myself. It has made me socially isolated IRL though. The circle of friends I have, it's taken a long time to form. Every person that I count as a good friend is able to follow me in conversation no matter how wildly intellectual I get, and that means a lot to me.

Our society rewards dumb far more than it rewards original, out of the box thinkers.

I agree 100% Esp on the society placing ignorance on a podium.

i live with a guy who is doing a physics degree and his thinking/use of language is so rigid its representative of a rigid mind
Is it a "rigid" mind in a bad way? I doubt it. The rigidness is simply rigour. That one is going to endeavour to be precise, accurate, use proper logic (Avoiding the various fallacies, minimizing the impact of cognitive biases.) and that one should present things using clear, un-ambigious terminology. A physicist like him or myself has to on the other hand, avoid being rigid in terms of sticking to the status quo and being able to disregard "common sense" (and replace it with higher abstraction...almost all of quantum mechanics and particle physics defies intuition and common sense. But it's obviously is true or the computer I'm posting this from would not work or for that matter, could not even be built.) and modify their view based on new information as it becomes available/is observed.

there is always a way to simplify a concept so that it doesn't go over (almost) everyone's head.
I'm not sure that's true...not without investing literally years and much effort. I'm sorry, but I can't simplify relativistic quantum field theories like QCD into something I can explain to a pot head who listens to phish all day and thinks math is boring and that reality is subjective. I'm sure this applies to other things like immunology or polymer chemistry too.

this is only true because people are not taught to think for themselves. You have to have a very strong personality to break free of the conditioning. Education needs to change, then you will see you are not that superior, and that everyone has their skills, their own kind of intelligence and ways of dealing with things - yours is quite a closeminded way of looking at things.

Not everyone uses linear logic.

I'm pretty open minded. I'll change my views on things to fit with empirical reality. So long as the idea in question is observable to "real" I'm happy to adopt it. Further, people will NEVER make a PS3 work, or run a nuclear reactor unless they adopt "linear logic" (Actually, continious non-linear partial differential equations are closer to what you'll need.) End of story: Mysticism, intuition, "other ways of knowing" and all that nonsense will never, ever get you a computer built, turn the lights on in your house, or fix your prolapsed mitral valve. Rigor, logic, analysis, reductionism, materialism, empiricism will.

Everyone has a skill. I don't look at someone who doesn't have 150 credits in bio and chem as being dumb if they don't understand. I respect people for using their talent to its full potential. I probably have more respect for people who have a talent that I don't have. Or maybe it's envy.

I think it's more that people are lazy and don't want to put in the work. That's a huge turnoff.

I agree. I won't disrespect someone for not having studied some given subject in-depth. However, I will disrespect them for deriding the subject or the techniques used in it as "not good". I will lose respect for them if they insist that said subjects are not really important or do not reflect reality. (Sorry, but that DNA is transcribed to RNA and translated to protein, or that radio waves and visible light are both photons and only differ in a manner analogous to a bass vs a guitar are not up for debate.)

Yes, laziness is repulsive and I expect people to put some effort into understanding what I'm saying and I do the same for them.

@Roughjack: Just for a minute remember how successful rigor, logic, and science has been in explaining the world and making stuff work. Look how far medicine has come. Look at your computer. Look at the Mars Curiosity Rover. Look at how (at least the first world) has no famines because of chemistry (fertilizer, pesticide) vet medicine (duh?) molecular biology (You might rip on it, but GMOs deliver) biology (hybrid crops) geology (irrigation, soil). Notice how we don't have raging epidemics killing scores of people. Vaccines(Biology and chemistry) prevent most of them. Sanitation(Chemistry, statistical analysis) further helps. Getting a deep puncture wound is no longer more or less a death sentence (Vaccines, antibiotics-chem and bio. Aseptic surgical techniques...chemistry, physics via gamma sterilizing of instruments). Hell, look at your GPS. The basis behind the idea is General relativity and the constant speed light. Putting the satellites in orbit: Classical mechanics. The atomic clocks and electronics (both your handheld GPS and satellite) Quantum electrodynamics, nuclear and particle physics. (To manufacture the chips, via heavy ion beams to dope the semiconductors correctly and 'build' the transistors etc on the wafer)

I'm not sure how reducing the use of rigor/logic, reducing/not using the scientific method and going back to intuition and mysticism (or on bluelight, eating 7 grams of shrooms in a search for "truth") is going to compare to the accomplishments of modern science and engineering. (and of course, the worldview and thinking processes used in those fields.)
 
I like where you get started...You then start talking about unnecessary things like Playstation and nuclear reactors, which are the reason I can't fucking go and visit Japan anymore.
...avoid being rigid in terms of sticking to the status quo and being able to disregard "common sense" (and replace it with higher abstraction...

I'm pretty open minded. I'll change my views on things to fit with empirical reality. So long as the idea in question is observable to "real" I'm happy to adopt it. Further, people will NEVER make a PS3 work, or run a nuclear reactor unless they adopt "linear logic" (Actually, continious non-linear partial differential equations are closer to what you'll need.) End of story: Mysticism, intuition, "other ways of knowing" and all that nonsense will never, ever get you a computer built, turn the lights on in your house, or fix your prolapsed mitral valve. Rigor, logic, analysis, reductionism, materialism, empiricism will.

Yes, laziness is repulsive and I expect people to put some effort into understanding what I'm saying and I do the same for them.
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@Roughjack: Just for a minute remember how successful rigor, logic, and science has been in explaining the world and making stuff work. Look how far medicine has come. Look at your computer. Look at the Mars Curiosity Rover. Look at how (at least the first world) has no famines because of chemistry (fertilizer, pesticide) vet medicine (duh?) molecular biology (You might rip on it, but GMOs deliver) biology (hybrid crops) geology (irrigation, soil). Notice how we don't have raging epidemics killing scores of people. Vaccines(Biology and chemistry) prevent most of them. Sanitation(Chemistry, statistical analysis) further helps. Getting a deep puncture wound is no longer more or I'm not sure how reducing the use of rigor/logic, reducing/not using the scientific method and going back to intuition and mysticism (or on bluelight, eating 7 grams of shrooms in a search for "truth") is going to compare to the accomplishments of modern science and engineering. (and of course, the worldview and thinking processes used in those fields.)

Psilocybin - well, I won't go on to much, YMMV, but I have observed in myself and others, personal insight, and getting back in touch with universal truths re: the cosmos, nothing more - these epiphanies and revelations would have come into our empirical knowledge repertoire eventually, most probably, but may have taken years or decades longer to realize.

There is nothing wrong with intuition - just because you cannot explain it yet, or break the process down bit by bit to fit in your little boxes of analysis, does not make it any less valuable than using other forms of logic - you are insulting me, possibly yourself, and the rest of the 50% of the world's population by doing it. Fuck it - you are probably intuitive (is you palm longer than it is wide?), you just don't consider it, in your arrogance.

Your examples just show how much you embrace all that is synthetic; a plague upon this earth in the grand scheme of things - fertilizer and pesticides - these destroy the world slowly but surely. Pesticides - there are natural pesticides out there, man-made ones are killing people, giving them parkinsons disease(thank you Monsanto)...not to mention the destruction they cause when the leech into the soil, then into the streams, rivers, oceans, and therfore on top of us through the process of precipiation.
GMO's are nothing but products pushed(you heard about the Terminator crops right?) - they help nothing, and are certainly not better than what nature provides. Vaccines - I would never use most of these even if you paid me - they corrupt our immune systems. Anti-biotics - same here, extremely damaging to the internal flora and fauna. GPS - again, I wouldn't use one if you paid me...I use my innate navigational skills coupled with my knowledge of the sun, the moon, the stars, and how plants bend/grow if pushed for time, like we have been doing for thousands of years - you use a compass and a map right? Of course you do, you're an army lad.

For all the examples you give - well done, those innovators - they are amazing feats of technological achievement, but at the end of the day a lot of them are unncessary, they are simply fun experiments, ones which get us further and further away from the natural ways which keep us ONE with our kin, the animals, this planet, universe, most do not further mankinds evolution in any way, as they provide people with easy ways to do things(we all know most quick fixes don't work properly, holistically), therefore they don't learn how to rely on themselves and further their empirical knowledge.


To cap it off - I never said anything was wrong with the use of logic - that would be retarded - but what you fail to notice in your efforts to prove something by going off on your intellectual rants, is that I have stated this before, whilst maintaining the truth, which is that not everything fits into your little boxes of how to define something(in my PMs mostly).


In fact I quote one of my favourite MC's as I heard one of his tunes yesterday I hadn't fully got the message of when I first heard it 9 years ago, and thought it apt -
"mankind in his arrogance and egotism, is out of time with the beat, a universal rhythm. In his quest to be the ruler of the moon and the stars, lost the synchopating rhythm of this planet of ours." - Rodney P - 'Trouble'

I end this with a quote repetition to prove you are not as open-minded as you suggest
End of story: Mysticism, intuition, "other ways of knowing" and all that nonsense ...
- yeah right, open-minded. Analysis, observation, intuition, practicality and action will one day all go hand in hand together again, when scientists admit there are simply some things which cannot be explained by their rigorous, close-minded methods.

This is going so far off track...haha epic derail.
 
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It might appear that way, but that application to me is erroneous...deduction failure.

I don't believe everything natural is better. I know as well as you, that every natural substance in the world, is a medicine or a poison, entirely dependent on dose, ROA, and a few other variables.

I have a distaste for a lot of technology(not all, and certainly not fearful...why should I be fearful when I know that we are going to win no matter what?), because as I said a lot of it is unnecessary and moneygrabbing and dealing in the seperation or enslavement of humankind's senses/minds/reduction of skills and abilities through reliance - but hey sheep people are gonna do what they are conditioned to do for a certain amount of time, until they realize they are getting fucked, and this will only happen on a global scale when chaos ensues, or 12% of the population of the world joins hands and minds in transcendental meditation to bring the collective consciousness up with them.

What I do feel really uncomfortable about is when one of my oldest friends is talking to me about how amazing it is going to be when humankind is combined with machines(studying AI) - this disturbs me, as all we need is ourselves and self discipline to make ourselves happy, complete, and perfections just keep on coming.

When I hear this and that about GMO crops, and the destruction they cause(there is no need for them, they are a product engineered just like all the other useless crap - simply frankensteins experiments spun in a way to make people think they are necessary) - if you go for a walk you will see that nature provided what we need, go for a walk with a book, and you will see all the veg, herbs, and fruits you need to get through a winter are right there, and if not you trade for stuff from other regions/countries.

The creation of terminator crops from money-grabbing companies like monsanto, whose shareholders and CEO's fuck people over right royally every single day, along with the Rockefellers who have a monopoly over the World health systems, with their petrochemical drugs, stomping ancient knowledge and herbal traditional medicines aside as "an alternative" or "quackery", just so they can get fat, drink too much bourbon, fuck whores, pay alimony for a wife they never loved and never loved them but they married for status, or because according to society they are "hot" (aesthetically conditioned society, who use deodorants, which covers up people's real smells, so actually most people can't smell whether they would be a good mate for them or not, they rely on socially engineered advertising and fashion and media blasting them with messages about what is hot...and as we all know most people are sheep with no mind of their own, as that's just too scary to think for theirselves), whilst making arms deals through their banks who invest their money in slavery, war, and drug oppression across the globe, just so they can have pay for the above, and maybe get a new house or a new car, or boat, or a humidor, or egyptian thread sheets, another bottle of vintage port for their cellar, or some other meaningless bullshit they can think of because they've already paid off this country's dictator or that politician in congress to get themselves MORE POWER over others, when really as individuals they have next to know power themselves, if you chucked them in the middle of the jungle, with no food or water.

You know what I can't stand the most? Humanity's seemingly endless downward and round spiral of power and domination over others - it's about time it ended, as it obviously gets no one anywhere, except maybe in this life. And in the grand scheme of things, that is short. Except we still have another 100 or so years of it at least.

What it all boils down to is a rich man stealing someone's iidea or putting a patent on something so no one can use it, or hushing up/killing people to hide free energy technology, taking advantage of scientists who are interested in the possibilities of combining this and that, making things better and doing a million and one things by putting theory and imagination into reality - all it takes is for some stupid rich person to come along and ruin it all, and turn it into a tool of oppression.

No significant problems with technology as a whole - the last few hundred years have been full of advancement(what do you think about tesla's work being hushed up?), but we are currently stagnating in useless products popping up when someone is bored of their old one, and medical "advances" which are simply ways of using technology and dangerously undertested drugs to convince people that they need products other than what nature provides all around and within them - I am here on this forum, talking to a dude in Canada, am I not? Technology has it's uses.

Just all the examples you gave pushed my buttons because they all make man stupider and less able, whilst providing him with what he needs. The layman has gone from a hunter/gather to either a machine, a hustler, a bitch, or an egomaniac who controls other people because he hates himself. Only the exceptional are actually going anywhere, them and the rich families who keep inbreeding and dominating, because they have more money than sense in their reptilian brains.
 
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Rangrz, I'm starting to think everything can be a fallacy in arguments. Wanna know what else? I think the people that come up with fallacies just want a reason to end an argument they're losing. "That's a fallacy! *hands note with random fallacy on it*"

Although everyone here has a point, we've really started to diverge away from the question.

Are you bisexual? No? Then we can take the discussion on logical fallacies elsewhere now. *points to P&S*
 
Is it a "rigid" mind in a bad way? I doubt it.

hard to tell.

i do however think there are more interesting ways of thinking than that which he displays. it may have nothing to do with physics but it does remind me of maths type thinking which i find quite rigid.
 
I love you...let's make bisexual babies.
Rangrz, I'm starting to think everything can be a fallacy in arguments. Wanna know what else? I think the people that come up with fallacies just want a reason to end an argument they're losing. "That's a fallacy! *hands note with random fallacy on it*"

Although everyone here has a point, we've really started to diverge away from the question.

Are you bisexual? No? Then we can take the discussion on logical fallacies elsewhere now. *points to P&S*
 
I know my examples pushed your buttons jack. That's why I picked them.

More subtly, because if you look into them with rigor and analytic methods, you are forced to the conclusion that these technologies are beneficial, albeit I will agree the companies which make and sell them are corrupt and perhaps push them too heavily / market them inappropriately.

@Poe:But a) more interesting does not mean more accurate b) I find algebraic geometry to be fascinating. I also find working out the details of how a star works and how the Earth formed very interesting.
 
They can be beneficial only because we have forced ourselves into certain boxes, by no longer being synchronized with nature - this is why the universe keeps wiping most of us out, because we are upsetting the natural balance, as well as these things simply being cyclical. They are not necessary, by any stretch. As I said, you can't improve on nature. Everything else is just unnecessary. When we collectively change the infrastructure of power in the world, instead of coming up with GMOs, trips to outerspace, AI technology and things that are holding us back from sorting out this world's problems - if/when we just got back in tune with the natural rhythm of things, we would soon see that none of these examples you gave are necessary, or even beneficial. That's theoretical though, because that change has not been completed yet.
I know my examples pushed your buttons jack. That's why I picked them.

More subtly, because if you look into them with rigor and analytic methods, you are forced to the conclusion that these technologies are beneficial, albeit I will agree the companies which make and sell them are corrupt and perhaps push them too heavily / market them inappropriately.

@Poe:But a) more interesting does not mean more accurate b) I find algebraic geometry to be fascinating. I also find working out the details of how a star works and how the Earth formed very interesting.
Even if they did prove to be beneficial in the short term, holistically I think you would see they caused more trouble than the amount of good.

Sacred geometry is amazing. I am only just getting back into it personally, and applying it into my drawings - golden ratios ftw.

I'm not going to be drawn into your debates anymore. I have laid my cards on the table, and you have yours. You think one way, I see things another way - time will tell as to who is right, and either way it's been fun exercising my brain a little by shooting the shit with you. But this conversation is not getting either party anywhere except possibly contributing towards RSI, and I am quite frankly sick of looking at a screen, arguing with my fingers. It takes too long haha.
 
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George Carlin said:
The word
'natural' is completely meaningless! Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It's not just trees and flowers! It's everything! A chemical company's toxic waste is completely natural! It's part of the nature! We're all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog shit is natural! It's just not real good food!

Its true, none of it is "super natural". Humans are natural and by default so is their behavior. Humans are constrained by the laws of nature (Thermodynamics, principle of mass action, speed of light, all them) and can not transgress them.

Antibiotics are un necessary? Tell me how.*you* would treat sepsis? Vaccines? Tetanus is 100% fatal without intensive care in modern style and 50% without. It still kills 2 million people a year in Africa. In the West, where everyone is vaccinated for it, the number of cases can be counted on your fingers.
 
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