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Binding data for popular arylcyclohexamines.

Dopamine receptor contribution to the action of PCP, LSD and ketamine psychotomimetics



Although phencyclidine and ketamine are used to model a hypoglutamate theory of schizophrenia, their selectivity for NMDA receptors has been questioned. To determine the affinities of phencyclidine, ketamine, dizocilpine and LSD for the functional high-affinity state of the dopamine D2 receptor, D2High, their dissociation constants (Ki) were obtained on [3H]domperidone binding to human cloned dopamine D2 receptors. Phencyclidine had a high affinity for D2High with a Ki of 2.7 nM, in contrast to its low affinity for the NMDA receptor, with a Ki of 313 nM, as labeled by [3H]dizocilpine on rat striatal tissue.

Ketamine also had a high affinity for D2High with a Ki of 55 nM, an affinity higher than its 3100 nM Ki for the NMDA sites. Dizocilpine had a Ki of 0.3 nM at D2High, but a Kd of 1.8 nM at the NMDA receptor. LSD had a Ki of 2 nM at D2High. Because the psychotomimetics had higher potency at D2High than at the NMDA site, the psychotomimetic action of these drugs must have a major contribution from D2 agonism. Because these drugs have a combined action on both dopamine receptors and NMDA receptors, these drugs, when given in vivo, test a combined hyperdopamine and hypoglutamate theory of psychosis.

I can only conclude that the methodology in the OP is heavily flawed - PCP is well known for its dopaminergic activity
 
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:| Okay so that study is not very credible? Well great, is there any other data?
 
My question is: How much does the D2 affinity really contribute to the psychotomimetic effects? Out of curiosity, would MCP be suitable to block D2 receptors? It would competitively inhibit D2r's and penetrate the BBB, right? Does anyone know the Ki for it at the D2r?
(edit:) I find values between 19 and 235 nM. I guess it couldn't significantly block any D2 activity induced by e.g. ketamine's binding if both were given at typical therapeutical and recreational dosages respectively, considering the MCP dosage would be around 60uMol and ketamine's around 1000uMol. I guess MCP and domperidone are the only clinically safe, readily available, relatively selective D2 antagonists out there (with domperidon not penetrating the BBB well enough).

It's interesting to see how the D2r affinity does indeed seem to correlate stronger to dosage than the NMDAr activity does btw, eventhough this could be due to other factors.


EDIT: Oh god, looking over the Discussion I have to read through that article in detail. Seems they are pretty thorough in their deductions.
 
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I think it's also important to note that the two selective receptors that Salvia has affinities for are KO and D2. Perhaps the D2 activity could be responsible for the feelings of enhanced insight and cognition during and after said experiences? So the bit that makes you think way too much about past events and gives revelations.

However after my recent use of Bromocriptine, a full agonist at this site, I can say that this is fairly unfounded as BC just makes you relaxed and mellow, this is due to it's HT1a agonism of course but there is no insightful thoughts on it or psychotomimetic type feelings either. Great compound nevertheless.
 
However after my recent use of Bromocriptine, a full agonist at this site, I can say that this is fairly unfounded as BC just makes you relaxed and mellow, this is due to it's HT1a agonism of course but there is no insightful thoughts on it or psychotomimetic type feelings either. Great compound nevertheless.
Funny you'd mention that, I was thinking about "Bromo" earlier as well. Never tried it myself, but I know it's illicitely utilized by bodybuilders to lower their progesterone when they are on certain AAS.

D2 activity alone could hardly be responsible for the psychotomimetic effects of NMDA antagonists then.

Yet it's really interesting you are pointing out salvinorin a has both affinity for kappa opioid receptors and d2r's, I was not aware of that. It's pretty close in effects to the nmda antagonist type dissociatives, eventhough it entirely lacks affinity for nmda receptors afaik. While it has been established that kappa opioid receptor agonists seem to possess "psychotomimetic" properties as well, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if more of them were agonists at d2 as well. I will definitely check that out later today.

Now it remains to be shown whether psychotomimetic effects of these compounds can be blocked with d2 antagonists. Too bad there is no real d2 antagonist that seems like a viable candidate to try this at home.

Can you tell me some more about bromocriptine's effects on you or do you have a report anywhere? I wasn't aware it had any sort of recreational value or psychotropic effects worth mentioning.

EDIT: There it is: Do not drive or operate heavy machinery... lol
Symptoms of a bromocriptine overdose may include:
confusion; constipation; delusions; dizziness; drowsiness; fainting; hallucinations; increased sweating; nausea; pale skin; repetitive yawning; vomiting.

Wait, "delusions" and "hallucinations"?
 
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:| Okay so that study is not very credible?

The study in the OP was made by amateurs who don't know what a high-affinity state is, so it's likely they missed not only the d2 receptor, but other receptors as well.

D2 activity alone could hardly be responsible for the psychotomimetic effects of NMDA antagonists then.

But what else could it be? The psychotomimetic concentration is too low for NMDA antagonism, so it's either d2 or something completely different:

Seeman said:
A similar situation exists for ketamine, where the psychotomimetic concentration in the serum is of the order of 100–500 nM, a value that matches the ketamine action (100–500 nM) at D2High (Figure 3, top), but not that at the NMDA receptor, which has a ketamine Ki of 3100 nM for striatal tissue (Figure 3, bottom), 760–2270 nM for brain membranes and 3150 nM for cloned NMDA receptors (Table 1).
 
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Bromocriptine really isn't that interesting. I would equate it to a benzo/cannabinoid high but with more euphoria and, sadly, muscle tension (Black Cohosh usually rids this from me), also a slight "jiggly-ness" in the eyes. What the main annoyance about bromocriptine is that I had not factored in the HT agonism and used TMA-2 after using BC for several days. What I got was a very sedating and mellow high with mild visuals from a 35mg dose. My last 35mg dose.

So after this incident I vowed to use BC wisely and not when I'm going to trip, but it makes stimulant comedowns very, very easy so I'm stepping on eggshells at the moment as I recently came into some DOET that I really want to see in it's fullest. It's either flog myself mercilessly with benzos after using stims or put off the DOET for another day. At the moment no good day is coming up so I'm making the most of my BC and my stims, until a brighter day shows its face. I'm thinking Shulgin's 5 day rule (RIP) should do me well but that HT1a agonism is just so nice! I need some more 5-MeO-DMT to microdose instead. Strangely enough DMT never interferes with my psyches, could it be because it's so short?

Anyway D2 certainly isn't the psychotomimetic factor, perhaps it's more to do with HT2 activation and more importantly what's inside each of the receptors, think Lisuride and why it does not produce such fantastic visions.

EDIT: Or maybe Bromocriptine is the Lisuride to D2?
 
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Anyway D2 certainly isn't the psychotomimetic factor, perhaps it's more to do with HT2 activation and more importantly what's inside each of the receptors, think Lisuride and why it does not produce such fantastic visions.

You think it's 5-ht2? The psychotomimetic concentration is 100–500 nM and the 5-ht2 affinity is 15000 nM, so I don't think so.

It's either d2 or another receptor altogether.
 
Bromocriptine really isn't that interesting. I would equate it to a benzo/cannabinoid high but with more euphoria and, sadly, muscle tension (Black Cohosh usually rids this from me), also a slight "jiggly-ness" in the eyes. What the main annoyance about bromocriptine is that I had not factored in the HT agonism and used TMA-2 after using BC for several days. What I got was a very sedating and mellow high with mild visuals from a 35mg dose. My last 35mg dose.
Thanks for the description, man. Hadn't heard any accounts of recreational bromocriptine use. Sorry to hear about your bout your fail TMA-2 trip.^^

You could also look at some neuroleptics for comedowns, they work amazingly well. Much better than benzos. Trazodone (tricyclic ad) has always seemed to be the best choice to get the job done for me though, it's not that easy to acquire these days though.

But what else could it be? The psychotomimetic concentration is too low for NMDA antagonism
Well, I'm not too sure about that. First of all, it can hardly be the same dissociation constant for all types of NMDA receptors since they show significant differences in their pharmacological properties. The dissociation constant might be much lower for certain types which I consider more than likely to say the least. It also seems that ketamine has a significantly higher affinity to NMDA receptors when the ion channel is open (I will post a source later, I might have done so earlier in this thread).

Also there could be some kind of other transport mechanism, so higher ketamine activity is reached in direct proximity to NMDAr's. DMT is an excellent example for this where the affinity for sigma-1 receptors is too low by a factor of 1000 (I really don't have time to post sources and that number might be incorrect, but it's affinity is much too low) to cause any significant s1r activation at it's plasma concentration after taking a typical recreational dose. However after entering the cell through 5HT it is packed into vesicles by vMAT2 (vesicular monoamine transporter) and transported directly to the s1r's, rendering it's dissociation constant useless for an understanding of it's pharmacology.

This was an example for an intracellular process that increases the activity of a substance around a target receptor. Admittedly I wouldn't know of a process that could be responsible for this in our scenario, but I could imagine a couple (wild speculations). I'm just trying to show that the dosage vs. dissociation constant is really just an indicator of the final activity, but should not allow us to deduct NMDAr's can impossibly be the target.

Btw, I said "D2 activity alone could hardly be responsible for the psychotomimetic effects of NMDA antagonists then." for a reason, I am not questioning that it seems likely at the moment that D2r's somehow contribute to the psychotomimetic effects of all known dissociatives, not only those that are NMDA antagonists.
 
So what? It could bind to HT2 partially but bind to the MGluR inside more heavily. Which is why Lisuride doesn't get the same activity that LSD does. Also what are we talking about here; Racemic Ketamine, S (-) K, PCP, Mk-801 or MXE? They'd all have different binding affinities. Also if we're talking MGlu receptors then they're linked between NMDA receptors and HT2 receptors, so even if it doesn't bind to the HT2 receptors it'll still activate the HT2 MGlu receptors within them, right? Or are they completely separate MGluR's?

Also that's what I mentioned at the end. What if D2 has more receptors inside it that BC doesn't hit but these compounds do? We just don't know.
 
DMT is an excellent example for this where the affinity for sigma-1 receptors is too low by a factor of 1000 (I really don't have time to post sources and that number might be incorrect, but it's affinity is much too low) to cause any significant s1r activation at it's plasma concentration after taking a typical recreational dose. However after entering the cell through 5HT it is packed into vesicles by vMAT2 (vesicular monoamine transporter) and transported directly to the s1r's, rendering it's dissociation constant useless for an understanding of it's pharmacology.

Whoa. I had a theory over Sigma receptors but was absolutely dumbfounded when I read about DMT's binding to S1R's so I went back to square one. Now I'm back and ready to research again. So, who has some spare cash for some PRE-084?!
 
Also there could be some kind of other transport mechanism, so higher ketamine activity is reached in direct proximity to NMDAr's. DMT is an excellent example for this where the affinity for sigma-1 receptors is too low by a factor of 1000 (I really don't have time to post sources and that number might be incorrect, but it's affinity is much too low) to cause any significant s1r activation at it's plasma concentration after taking a typical recreational dose. However after entering the cell through 5HT it is packed into vesicles by vMAT2 (vesicular monoamine transporter) and transported directly to the s1r's, rendering it's dissociation constant useless for an understanding of it's pharmacology.

Wait DMT gets transported through SERT and vMAT? I wonder if that means it has 5-HT releasing properties as well?

Here's a reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19756361
 
Wait DMT gets transported through SERT and vMAT? I wonder if that means it has 5-HT releasing properties as well?
Well at least that article seems to claim it does. I hadn't heard of it before. It wouldn't surprise me at all considering the subjective effects. I'll check that out.

@blueberries
With HT2 you are referring to all 5-HT2r's, right? I've never seen them referred to by that acronym. I'm having some trouble following your posts. I am not a neuroscientist. It seems you are saying a lot considering the last post is only 3 lines long. I personally can't really react to any of it without potentially causing a misunderstanding. I'm also not really sure which substances you are referring to. If you don't have anything better to do, please try to elaborate a bit, but let's try to keep the discussion OT. :)

EDIT: Ok here it is... The abstract really is a little confusing to say the least. It claims DMT has been shown to cause monoamine release. Yet the only source it presents for this has not even tested DMT, but a number of other tryptamines. The author of the article you posted is questioning the conclusions that were drawn and proposes DMT could indeed act as a monoamine releaser for various reasons. Yet he did not conduct any experiments. So basically it is pure speculation eventhough I would still say there is a good chance he is right. I am not posting all the quotes and sources since they don't belong into this thread. I did start making jpegs of the tables, so this isn't laziness.^^ If you are interested I will send you the two articles though or we could talk it over in a thread about DMT pharmacology.

Back on topic (sort of): Does anyone know a good article about GLAST and GLT1 (glutamate transporters)?
 
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I was researching on ways that MXE's pharmacological actions could indirectly increase dopamine levels in the brain. I was looking for evidence that the changes in glutamate function could cause changes in dopamine levels and, indeed, found this: http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/8/3/189.full " Thus, a reduced glutamate function, for example as induced by ketamine, may cause some elevation of dopamine release"
 
Sorry for not writing back sooner, this weekend had me a little dazed. Yeah basically, al HT2 receptors, but specifically HT2a, also I'm thinking HT3 & 4 could have intricate mechanisms similar to this, plus there's also HT1e & f which we know almost nothing about. Fact of the matter is we know almost nothing about the routes that these compounds go to a the end of the day.

The Lisuride thing tells us that indefinitely. All receptors could hold different mechanisms similar to how both Lisuride hits HT2a and how DMT hits Sigma, so D2 could in fact be the psychotomimetic receptor but Bromocriptine, being what it is, doesn't hit it for the sole reason of it being a mellow, sedating drug, not a psychotomimetic drug. You could have something with the exact same binding affinity to BC that acts in a completely different way. It boggles the mind when you think about all the things we don't know yet about the brain and chemistry.

For instance, I was thinking earlier that if a different synthesis route to LSD that brings up 100% LSD could have slightly different effects to another route of 100% LSD, like if you bake a cake with more water than another; it is less dry than another. It's a basic analogy but the theory behind it could go a lot deeper.

Also I'm no scientist either, just an avid user!
 
I guess "HT[subtype number][sub-subtype letter]" works, since 5ht is short for "five hydroxyl tryptamine", and the 5ht is prominent enough to claim to be "the" hydroxylated tryptamine. It's potentially confusing, though, as histamine receptors are abbreviated with "H[number]".

D2 could in fact be the psychotomimetic receptor but Bromocriptine, being what it is, doesn't hit it for the sole reason of it being a mellow, sedating drug, not a psychotomimetic drug.

We have to take care to avoid using subjective effects to characterize physiological activity, as history is littered with examples of mistaken but long-held confidence in erroneous explanations drugs' mechanisms (eg people tend to circulate misinformation that 2cb releases monoamines because it feels a bit entactogenic). Bromocriptine is actually a strong agonist at D2 (PDSD database). In fact, this is B's strongest activity aside from binding at a couple adrenal receptor subtypes (ibid).

Now, I think "psychotomimeticism" is too vaguely and nebulously defined to lend itself to categorizing compounds (and also too unreliably induced by said compounds). Imagine, for example, 3 people experiencing a "psychotic break", one on PCP, one on LSD, and one subject to forced sleep-deprivation. The symptoms between the three will prove quite distinct, particularly the types of hallucinations encountered. The only reliable similarity between the three is that there is some break from consensus sensory experience and beliefs about the world, centering (mostly) on the person experiencing psychosis (eg, schizophrenics tend to consider themselves uniquely subject to disproportionate surveillance due to personal characteristics or actions that make them unique).

Because of the conceptual and empirical challenges presented by analysis of psychosis, I don't think that there could be a single receptor sub-type that mediates the affliction. I think that we'll discover the underlying cause of schizophrenia (rather, the most directly relevant mechanism) when we reach moderate proficiency in understanding patterns of activity in neural circuits as a meaningful, systematically theorized domain with empirical linkages to subjective experience .

You could have something with the exact same binding affinity to BC that acts in a completely different way.

This is likely what's going on with lisuride. A compound with a given affinity can be an agonist, partial agonist, antagonist, or inverse agonist. But beyond this, some agonists initiate secondary-messaging cascades distinct from the endogenous ligand, as is the case with classical psychedelics (with selectivity for PLA2-mediated increase in arachadonic acid activity over PLC-mediated PKC activity). Lisuride, IIRC, is selective for PLC-activition (5ht itself activates both, probably with some selectivity for PLC-mediated cascades).

For instance, I was thinking earlier that if a different synthesis route to LSD that brings up 100% LSD could have slightly different effects to another route of 100% LSD, like if you bake a cake with more water than another; it is less dry than another. It's a basic analogy but the theory behind it could go a lot deeper.

Chemical synthesis tends not to be analogous to culinary preparation in this way. Alter the 'ingredients' that go in or their amounts, and you get additional unreacted intermediaries, novel chemical reactions that lead to additional intermediate compounds, prevention of reaction from precursor to product (at whatever stage, involving whichever intermediaries), no change in the reaction, etc. The goal of synthesis production of a single, isolated compound, and this compound cannot change unless one reacts it to or replaces it with an entirely different compound; eg, I cannot make a "slightly different" r-DOB but only other compounds entirely. If I go around tweaking with the brominated reagent involved, let's say replacing it with an iodine-bearing reagent, I can prevent the reaction from occurring or yield an alternate product (eg,DOI), but I can't make a 'different' DOB.

It's only when you just happen to have unreacted precursors or intermediate compounds that are psychoactive at low doses combined with negligence in performing the final solvent washes that different 'cooks' take on discernibly different 'flavors'. Eg, meth containing 50 percent unreacted pseudoephedrine will feel different. However, because such phenomena are by nature difficult to control, synthetic chemists avoid allowing impurities to persist in their products. Doing so increases the desirability of their product, and thus their profit.

Also I'm no scientist either, just an avid user!

Me as well (my training's in sociology)! Please never let that discourage you from asking questions here. :)

ebola
 
Now, I think "psychotomimeticism" is too vaguely and nebulously defined to lend itself to categorizing compounds (and also too unreliably induced by said compounds).

Very true. Psychotomimetic could mean different thing entirely. I was going off the back of, say, thought looping, ego-loss and disbanded thinking as tends to the usual with psychedelic drugs. Even dissociatives; ego loss has been a major part of "going too far" with 3-MeO-PCP lately, much more so than with MXE or Ketamine which provide steady, reachable ground and warmth to aid in the subjective loss of universes, whereas 3-MeO-PCP has nothing, however this same ego loss is present in LSD, Psilocin, Mescaline and other classical psychedelics, although accompanied by a host of other mind altering symptoms. So I figure we should stick to the basics that, say, Psilocin would provide. The ego-loss, thought loop, energetic field presence and other absurdities the mind can present us with.

If we say psychotomimetic is that then we can open ourselves up to the background of each. As I previously mentioned 3-MeO-PCP is particularly effective at ego-loss, why is this different to Psilocin? Is it the lack of extraneous 5HT processes? It could be, but then where would DiPT stand, which buttons does this push but Psilocin doesn't? Furthermore 4-HO-DiPT; which contains all but visual stimuli. Undoubtedly both of these agonise 5HT2a in some way but the Metabolic Glutamatergic Receptors (MGluR) within 5HT2a aren't hit. How many MGluRs are there and which ones are responsible for which symptoms?

Certainly 3-MeO-PCP must have selective affinity to only one of these receptors, completely lacking in another. However what I am stating is all receptors contain some kind of extraneous activity based upon how the compound hits it, D2 (Dopamine receptor 2) included. Perhaps this is where the ego-loss comes from, not the 5HT2a receptor and if a separate compound such as Bromocriptine (or it's metabolites, and vice versa) hits it in a different way due to having a completely altered structure, another theory I have. This is, that the structure in fact determines how the substance acts. Of course this is natural but I mean in a way that corresponds to how the natural substance hits the receptor (AKA: serotonin shaped compounds would be more likely to bind to serotonin receptors). This also applies to metabolites. So a metabolite of 3-MeO-PCP would only bind to the HT2a receptor a certain amount (so one third of the whole receptor) and that would cause the ego-loss but not the other psychedelic effects, or it would bind but only be caught by the MGluRs that 3-MeO can properly bind to.

In this same way D2 agonists, while they may be partial or even full agonists, if they don't have a similar structure to the endogenous compound the receptor relates to, they would not be allowed full access to the MGluRs inside, or they would only have weak affinities to them. Also this is where metabolism plays a crucial part. Dopamine itself would be metabolised into several other compounds, in the same way if Psilocin were metabolised into compounds of a similar shape or size then they would have greater access to the MGluRs, whereas 3-MeO-PCP would not.

Also the cake theory was just a theory. I went into great depth about it at one point but realised that this would be impossible as all 100% compounds could not be differed. However then there is always the (very conflicted) idea that energy could in some way shape a molecule. For instance the Japanese tests, where glasses of water were subjected to cold temperatures under different emotions, producing different crystals. If one "put more love" into a synthesis, would the acid be the same as if someone did it as just a job? Also would some bonds be stronger if it were produced in a different way to another, changing the metabolites and thus altering the experience a person had? I got this idea from people who had two nearly identical batches of acid multiple times and their experiences differed between the batches (for instance one was mellow and one was a head-fuck at the same dosage). These effects couldn't be produced by the minor impurities such as iso-LSD but must be from how the compound was made, although impurities count in a great deal as a significant impurity could account to a higher body-load than with pure LSD.

Anyway this is just a theory so don't take it as fact, I wondered how people would react, whether they could think outside the box or not. However thinking about it now, it does make a lot of sense and people can label it in any way they want but that doesn't stop similar changes taking places which we have no clue about. What if there were PLB, D or even E cascades (not really, just making them up for the theory's sake), which differentiate between the kind of effect the compound has on a human?
 
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