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Berkeley's idealism

Lost Ego

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The purpose of this paper WAS that I had a final paper due last tuesday and needed help. The point was to 1) disprove berkeley's god, 2) show that his system becomes solipsistic without god and 3) show contradictions of Berkeley's idealism.

Now the purpose of this thread is general discussion arguing for or against Berkeley. The original text can be found here and an analysis can be found here.
 
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Hahahahahahahahahaha that's the least urgent thing I've ever seen posted on a drug board.

Have the courage of your convictions man. You're right, so go for it.
 
The challenge with this comparison is that the two thinkers begin with fundamentally different epistemologies and ontologies. Your underlying task will be to establish that Berkeley's idealism either leads to logical inconsistencies or lacks parsimony outright, and that Hume presents a more tenable picture. Basically, you need to explore the pros and cons of assuming that there either is or is not matter.

ebola
 
Berkeley's proof for god is that ideas are mind dependent. We don't sense any power in them so we know they don't cause themselves, some ideas come without our minds causing them so some other mind or spirit must cause them to exist and subsist.
 
What I need help with is that I want to disprove his god but I have yet to read much of hume. My guess is he'd be able to. If not then who? I could also use hobbes, descartes, spinoza, leibniz, locke, and kant...
 
I hear Kant demolished the idea that God could be proved in one of his critiques (probably of pure reason). Hence the nickname 'Der Alleszermalmer'. Wait I'll find something...
 
What it could come down to is a comparison of both theorists' accounts for object permanence (and maybe the order of reality in general). Hume will lead you to an account tied to how he thinks of material objects, and possibility his ultimate skepticism about our knowledge about them, leading to his theory of custom and habit. Or you could just pit Berkeley against someone you've already read.

(you should do your readings for class and avoid procrastinating beginning your essays ;)

In Dubio said:
I hear Kant demolished the idea that God could be proved in one of his critiques (probably of pure reason).

Not in my opinion. Kant was a deist, and God plays a role in his account of the order of the conditions of possibility for necessities underlying our perception and conceptualization of the phenomenal.

ebola
 
Not in my opinion. Kant was a deist, and God plays a role in his account of the order of the conditions of possibility for necessities underlying our perception and conceptualization of the phenomenal.

ebola

Sorry for not responding to your last reply to me about the holographic principle; it was so over my head I couldn't even begin to answer it. To make amends I will take a [terribad] crack at this, when I understand what you mean by 'necessities underlying our perception and conceptualization of the phenomenal'. I'm assuming you mean the necessity of space, time and causality to exist for there to be experience at all?

My impression was from pg 36 The philosophy of Schopenauer by Magee:
"Kant had shown that it is impossible to understand the world by use of reason alone...Kant saw this as an opening the door to religion: if it is possible for a transcendental explanation of the world to be accepted only on faith there is nothing self-contradictory or irrational in doing so."

Not sure what to make of this.
 
Eh thanks for the contributions fellas. I've decided to switch my topic to Berkeley vs Hobbes. I don't think I'll be arguing against immaterialism anymore. I'll just use Hobbes' argument to strengthen berkeley's. I already have the argument outlined, I'll hopefully get it done tonight at work.
 
In Dubio said:
Sorry for not responding to your last reply to me about the holographic principle; it was so over my head I couldn't even begin to answer it.

It's cool: it was slightly over my head too, hence my eagerness to explore it.

'necessities underlying our perception and conceptualization of the phenomenal'. I'm assuming you mean the necessity of space, time and causality to exist for there to be experience at all?

I'll warn you that my Kant is rusty, so my descriptions might be nonspecific. I'm thinking of some entity or force that structures the noumenal in general as 'God'. You can think of God as a first cause of sorts, that structures the noumenal, the noumenal's structure conditioning necessity of aspects of our capacities for apprehending the phenomenal. Kant makes an argument somewhere about there being a first cause for the universe (though I'm not sure how straightforwardly I should interpret the statement). This squares with Kant's overall Deism.

My impression was from pg 36 The philosophy of Schopenauer by Magee:
"Kant had shown that it is impossible to understand the world by use of reason alone...Kant saw this as an opening the door to religion: if it is possible for a transcendental explanation of the world to be accepted only on faith there is nothing self-contradictory or irrational in doing so."

I think this might be reading 'into' Kant rather than explaining his views.


Not sure what to make of this.

Neither do I. :P
 
(exerpt from my paper) My attempts to weaken Berkeley's argument are as follows:

Berkeley.1) - For matter to be metaphysically possible the following must be disproved somehow. 1) Matter is a mind independent substance. 2) If something is independent of the mind, it cannot be an idea (it can't be sensible by the mind). 3) Therefore you need to be able to concieve what is inconcievable. 4) As soon as you concieve a substance which is inconcievable, it has just been concieved. 5) The existence of matter is impossible

Hobbes.1) - No rebuttal.

Daniel.1) - There is a gap between concievability and possibility and it is flawed. 1) It is concievable but metaphysically and demonstratably impossible for an even integer four or greater to not be the sum of two odd integers. 2) Possibility does not always follow conceivability. 1) We cannot conceive what it is like to experience sonar vision like a bat but it is not impossible to experience sonar vision like a bat. 2) The power of our imagination is limited. 3) Inconcievability can entail possibility. 4) The existence of noumenal matter is possible, we perhaps just lack the sense organ to percieve it.

Berkeley.2) - 1) We percieve ordinary objects. 2) The only aspects of these objects we percieve are their sensible qualities. 3) Sensible qualities cannot exist without the mind. 4) Ordinary objects are ideas. 4) We have no direct contact with "matter".

Hobbes.2) - No rebuttal.

Daniel.2) - Okay? All you accomplished to prove was that the phenomenal world - what we perceive - is dependent on our perception. DUH! Sure, we have no need for matter yet but that time will come.

Berkeley.3.a) - Berkeley's argument for god: Ideas can be caused by one of three things - myself, ideas or god. He goes through a process of elimination to state that it is in fact god that causes ideas.

X - Ideas - 1) Since ideas are mind dependent they cannot have characteristics which are unpercieved. 2) No power or activity is perceived in ideas. 3) Ideas possess no causal power.

Y - Myself - 1) Ideas are mind-dependent, a mind must cause them to exist. 2) There are some ideas which I do not consciously will to exist. 3) I do not cause those ideas.

Z - God - It follows that ideas are caused by another spirit. That spirit is god.

Hobbes.3) - 1) A body/substance is defined as a thing that takes up space. 2) Incorporeal is defined as the quality of not being composed of matter. 3) A spirit is defined as an incorporeal body. 4) A body cannot be incorporeal. 5) The definition of spirit is contradictory

Berkeley.3.b) - 1) Berkeley never gives a definition for body, incorporeal or spirit however I'm sure he would argue that his definition of body is flawed and should instead be defined as an idea that appears to take up space. 2) He would also argue that incorporeal should instead be defined as quality of not being composed of ideas. 3) Lastly he would argue that a spirit should be defined as as an incorporeal perceiver.

Daniel.3) - Berkeley does dodge the threat of contradiction however (in Berkeley.3.A.Y.) his argument that ideas aren't caused by my mind is flawed. a) It is based on the assumption that we can only cause ideas when we are conscious and 2) that we can only cause ideas through our will. 3) I can concieve that there is an unconscious mind which resides within my brain and who has the capacity to manifest phenomena in my environment without my willing it to happen. 4) It is possible that my mind alone causes all idea to manifest and subsist. 5) It is also possible that all of the knowledge in the universe is innate in me and I unconsciously manifest it at random.
 
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^ Um, I don't care so long as somebody is interested in discussing Berkeley. And can you change the subject to something more appropriate? It doesn't need to specifically be about my paper. Perhaps just "Arguments for/against Berkeley"??? Or simply "George Berkeley and Idealism"?
 
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