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Benzos Benzos for Alcohol withdrawal

I am not sure on this so correct me if I am wrong. However I think this is not the way to go.

Alcohol and benzos hit the same receptor sites (GABA) and therefore withdrawals from either untreated can result in seizure risk. So basically you are substituting one GABA drug for another. I think you will still end up with potential risk of seizure and withdrawals.
 
e12dsm said:
^^^ i totally agree. it takes a lot to deal with and try and help a friend/loved one. It says a lot about someones character when they go to great lengths and make sacrafices to do w.e it takes to see that someone gets help. i commend you for it, because there are unfortunately not too many people of that character in this world anymore.
if you can do it safely, and properly monitor the drugs you administer him. a proper Taper is vital. Try not to overdue the ammount of benzo's you are giving him, try and give him the least ammount you can each time in the begining to the weening process will be easier. Most detoxs that are good try to do the same thing, people will always say they are in more pain or discomfort then the really are just to get more drugs, but it prolongs their pain in the long run. If u can check his BP, heartrate, and temperatue every 4 hours or so. They are some of the best ways to medical check someone w/d serverity. Its tough, because he isnt willing to go to the hospital, so your obviously going to have to make due at home. but atleast thats better then him doing it by himself without any medical/medication assistance.
i know he is trying to keep his job, and a leave of abcense is in the cards for him right now, but if you can some how persuade him to get treatment, i suggest Outpatient at the very least, and seeing a doctor to try and get a perscription of antabuse, or any other type of anti-drink or craving suppresant medication. AA is also neverrrr a bad idea, i have been attending AA/NA meetings for years, and even though im not clean at the moment ive had period where i have been and a big reason for it was 12step programs, and the empathy, identification, and fellowship you get there.
And lastly if you can convince him to get into an inpatient rehab, i would suggest The Salvation Army, ive been to dozensss of High Dollar rehabs when i had insurance, and the Salvation army ARC(adult rehabilitation Center) were by far the rest. doesnt cost a penny to stay there, way better food then most rehabs, work therapy, 12 step meetings everynight, all sorts of educational class's on addiction, and much more. They are all a bit different but most run on the same conceptual principles. Ive been to the Phoenix, Jersey City, and Newark ones. They are a bit tough at first when u are trying to transition, but once u get used to the schedule and get a good lil job at the facility, it really is an amazingg place. all the friends i made at the one in Phoenix are still sober to this day. im actually considering going back out to phoenix if my brother is willing to fly me out. but of course like the good addict i am i wanna do it on my own lol but my track history shows me that i dont usually do well when its "my way."
Good Luck to you and your friend, you are hopefully saving his life, and remind him that if he doesnt do this he can forget about his full or 80% pention, because odds are he will die before he ever see's it. God Forbid
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You have given some very good advice, sobered up at Bridgehouse, New Orleans, in 1986 still going strong, good luck with your next attempt, I'm an AA member and want to say, "Love Ya Bro", doors will be open and the coffee will be made, however you get there, the hand of AA will always welcome you back, I had relasped also and didn't know in 1986 it would be my last drink or drug, but it was, 12 step is the best, both aa/na, good luck, my biggest fear was what would I do if AA worked, how could I live sober forever, it seemed impossible, simple process but not easy in the beginning, good luck, just surrender, the drunks/addicts pray is, "God please help me, I'll do anything", surrender to WIN.
 
georgejungle said:
Get him or yourself to an AA meeting, they will have some very good advice about detox and beyond. Regardless of what anyone thinks about AA, it's the best cure for a drunk known to man, good luck, I've been where you are at, where he is at, and know AA has kept me sober since 1986, from everything! Say what you want but It Works, seek help from those X drunks, they have some good stuff.
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Disagree. AA is proven to be just as efficacious as any other SINGLE treatment modality. Except AA is NOT treatment. It is a good adjunct for MOST populations. It is completely ineffective with kids (proven by NIDA and other leading best practice research). Plus there are a lot of myths about AA:
1. "You have to hit rock bottom"
2. "You just aren't ready."
3. What happens to that neat pin if you "lapse." You start all over. What happens to MOST people when they "lapse?" They feel guilty and shameful and then don't go back and go on another bender and find another arbitrary "new bottom."

Addiction is a chronic and relapsing disease that needs to be treated and viewed as such like managing high blood pressure or diabetes. If you have insulin spikes despite taking medication are you FAILING or NOT READY? No. Lapses occur because specific brain chemistry has been altered. People need to realize Lapses don't need to be Relapses and there is NO REASON to lose your progress due to a slip. You should slip, get your medication right (if needed) see your therapist AND hit up a meeting and KEEP going UP that mountain. Thats just the Friggin truth with no BS.
 
Ive been thinking about that myself ^^^ im worried that when i come of the xanax ive been taking for my Alcohol w/d's that ill start to feel them again. im just going to try and do the best taper i can, even tho im not taking a high dose of Xanax, the GABA receptor thing came across my mind. is that why most detoxs use weaker benzos usually like Librium, so once u come off its not as bad? But ive seen people still have seizures even while on Librium, was it because it was too weak, or not a high enough dose?
But yea like Georgejungle said ZIGGY, AA and the people in it saveee lives, all depends on how willing, and openminded he is to their suggestions. They can probably help, or maybe atleast convice him to seek professional medical help, and also give him hope, and encouragement that it can be done. i find that Identification, hearing peoples experiences, and knowing that you arent the only one in the world that is going through it or have been through it, is one of the most powerfull healing tools there is. sometimes when i was kicking dope in the past, that going to a meeting helped me greatly, not only by getting me up n about out of the house, but from the comfort the people gave me, and the thought that THERE IS A LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL. it takes honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness to get there. and friends and support like you and other sober willing people.
 
AA and 12 step programs only work if you are willing and actually WORK the program. trust me in the past ive had my doubt about AA/NA, but ive been attending for a long time now, and have seen countless addicts and alcoholics be restored from an absolute state of hopelessness. Sure there are other ways and mean to get and stay clean, but AA DOES work for a lot of people, i just suggested it becomes i know hundredsss of people who are clean and alive, and have been for decades, because of 12 step fellowships, and it is also the biggest, most accesible, and easy to find recovery group to find, meetings are everywhere in the world 24/7 365, and they arent hard to find. i just believe its not a bad idea to bring him to one to see if he likes it, and if not maybe get some info about how to get into a detox or some type of program, or at the very least hear something shared that might give him a lil insight on as to why he drinks or who he is. It cant hurt, it could be the first day of his new life. But to make comments like that about a Fellowship that has saved millionssss of lives is just pretty ignorant in my opinion.
 
I also know multiple young people , who started attending AA/NA when they were 15-16, and have 5+ years clean. everyone is different, and all the examples you posted are not direct quotes from AA or NA literature, they are just opions and views of certain people in the program, you will not find any of those Quotes in the first 164 pages of the Big Book, or the NA basic text.
 
Meh, I am not discounting AA/NA. It works; for about 20% I like to have the odds stacked higher. AA is not treatment. It can work, but it isn't treatment. AA/NA, CBT, medication, social responsibility like volunteering, employment is a better "script."

It really should go like this if you are an ADDICT
1. Detox
2. Resid Tx
3. OP Tx using CBT + Meetings (contingent on population)
4. Medication management
5. 3/4 living
6. Back to the world

But please don't propagate the notion that AA/NA is good for kids. It isn't. I don't care if someone knows it "helped" it doesn't help 90+ percent. Why?
1. Kids mostly aren't addicts
2. They can't relate
3. They are in a state of boundary testing
4. They are in a state of spiritual testing

Battered women:
1. It's hard to grasp "surrendering"
2. It's hard to find women only meetings.
3. It's easy to "13 step."

There are other populations to that don't benefit but I won't list them all.

It is about BEST PRACTICE and using ALL supports. Now if a kid got help with AA, great. Whatever works. But I am about the truth (this forum) and probabilities and if addicts only rely on AA/NA then expect 80 to 90% of the people in your meetings to not stay.

"Man these meetings help me with my own recovery" is a COMMON statement speakers make. It is NEVER about the speak (very poor approach). It is SOLEY to help those that need it. Get your own help on your own time.

That is why it is not considered "treatment." It is a GOOD adjunct to treatment. I won't derail the thread anymore.

OP, make sure to be careful when mixing benzos and ETOH as a titration method as they affect GABA and risk of grand mal is still present. Short acting benzos pose the most risk.
 
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HRopiate said:
Disagree. AA is proven to be just as efficacious as any other SINGLE treatment modality. Except AA is NOT treatment. It is a good adjunct for MOST populations. It is completely ineffective with kids (proven by NIDA and other leading best practice research). Plus there are a lot of myths about AA:
1. "You have to hit rock bottom"
2. "You just aren't ready."
3. What happens to that neat pin if you "lapse." You start all over. What happens to MOST people when they "lapse?" They feel guilty and shameful and then don't go back and go on another bender and find another arbitrary "new bottom."

Addiction is a chronic and relapsing disease that needs to be treated and viewed as such like managing high blood pressure or diabetes. If you have insulin spikes despite taking medication are you FAILING or NOT READY? No. Lapses occur because specific brain chemistry has been altered. People need to realize Lapses don't need to be Relapses and there is NO REASON to lose your progress due to a slip. You should slip, get your medication right (if needed) see your therapist AND hit up a meeting and KEEP going UP that mountain. Thats just the Friggin truth with no BS.
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I agree with the myths about AA, disagree about the young people, there is a section for lack of better term in AA call Young People in AA, that do there own thing, have thier own meetings, conventions, you name it. 6 of my best friends in AA sobered up from ages 15-19, have 20 plus years of continous soberity and are a driving force in helping other kids, but like I said, regardless of what you think, there are over 2 million members in the US, and still growing, from the park bench to park avenue it's helped so many people, and it's not treatment, it's a way of life, one drunk helping another, all I have to do is show anyone the number of kids in AA and all the studies go out the window, but AA is not a cure all, and I agree there are many many other ways to deal with addiction, AA is just 1 of them, and for some, the only one they will ever need
 
You are so right about what other people opinions might be and what's in the first 164 pages of the big book, or the traditions one of which states AA or NA Has No Opinion on Outside Issues, which means if it's not in the book etc., oh well you can think or say anything you want
 
Please don't take this personal, but when you post can you use some more common words that a guy like me might understand, I do use the dictionary a lot, but don't have it always, so break it down simply for the not quite as smart as you fellow like me, like I said nothing personal, I'm just a dumbass who needs that 8th grade reading level for me to get it, kind of how newspapers write 8>)
 
I wish he would go inpatient because I don't know how to deal with the amount of benzos.

Just one point. If benzos caused w/d for an alcoholic after the therapy, then benzos would not be given in detox and I'm, positive benzos are the standard for alcohol detox.

Helping this guy takes my mind of off stupid shit. Ever since I have quit abusing drugs and stay on methadone I have been able to manage my life and have time for a lot of extra stuff. It's the best I've felt in years.

He won't go to AA. He kinda has this attitude that he isn't an addict. Like "they are addicts" and I'm different type of mentality. He doesn't know I take methadone and that I was addicted. Also with alcoholics there is the mentality that somehow alcohol addicts are different than other addicts. They are better people somehow. I don't care to argue.

So, I have his script. Took away all alcohol and its all hidden. Will give him 10mg for tonight. Then 10mg in the morning and night and see how he feels.
 
hmm

which benzo is it that you have 5mg tabs of?

there is a good detoxing schedule here;

http://www.dryoutnow.com/alcohol-treatment/alcohol-treatment_xaa5.shtml

If he is drinking a litre of vodka a day thats about 260 units a week (wow) so thats 50mg of chlordiazepoxide 4 times a day gradually reduced to zero over 9 days.

Obviously if you only have 300mg then you are gunna be stretched. Is there any way you could get more possibly? if not it may not be too much of a problem, I was on less than that protocol thingy suggests so you may be okay. You could just wait til the symptoms appear and use your best judgement as to how much to give and how often. Higher doses at the start are best to help prevent DTs etc.

Make sure he has thiamine (they nromally give this IV in hospital as its poorly absorbed from the tummy and before glucose as it could cause Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome.

Trazodone is good for sleep. Good luck and if anything gets too out of hand you may have no option but to take him to the hospital.
 
There is a sayin in AA/NA "Its not for people who NEED it, its for people who WANT it"
but i like this one more"Its not for people who need it, its not for people who want it, its for people who JUST DO IT"
 
georgejungle said:
I agree with the myths about AA, disagree about the young people, there is a section for lack of better term in AA call Young People in AA, that do there own thing, have thier own meetings, conventions, you name it. 6 of my best friends in AA sobered up from ages 15-19, have 20 plus years of continous soberity and are a driving force in helping other kids, but like I said, regardless of what you think, there are over 2 million members in the US, and still growing, from the park bench to park avenue it's helped so many people, and it's not treatment, it's a way of life, one drunk helping another, all I have to do is show anyone the number of kids in AA and all the studies go out the window, but AA is not a cure all, and I agree there are many many other ways to deal with addiction, AA is just 1 of them, and for some, the only one they will ever need
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he's obviously never heard of ICYPAA "International Convention for YOUNG people in AA. thousands upon thounsands of YOUNG addicts and alocoholics from around the world attend. I never once said that AA "was good" for kids, or that it is treatment, all i said to the OP was that it wouldnt hurt to get him to a meeting to possibly get some info on what he should do as far as detox, or info on any question he may be asking himself about his alcoholism. The Theraputic Value of one Alcoholic/Addict helping another is WITHOUT parrallel. There is no better treatment then Empathy.
 
"25mg of librium 3 to 4x a day 10mg of valium 3 to 4x a day"
the reason i was given those doses of benzos is because i was drinking over a fifth of hard liqueur a day
 
I was drinking 1.5-17.5 liters (full handle) of 40% whiskey, then vodka daily for 18 months
And about 10 months into it, I started shooting heroin daily as well
I then overdosed on an alcohol/heroin combo and landed up in the hospital
I was administered naloxone, kept there for 4 hours, they assumed I was stable (even after telling them about my alcohol and heroin habit), and they left me in the hands of my parents
I later found out that I should have sued them for malpractice, because I needed to be immediately sent into a detox.
After that, my parents got super fucking pissed and locked me in their house for 13 days, watching me like a hawk.
When I went to get a glass of water at 3am, my dad was sitting on the couch to follow me into the kitchen
I was shaking worse than someone with parkinsons
I was having terrible auditory and visual halucinations, especially at night
I would go from sweating to freezing
I was vomiting, had diarrhea, restless legs, the most terrible anxiety I have felt
I went 5 days without sleep until my mother started giving me 5mg of ambien per night (which is a terrible medicine for alcohol/heroin withdrawals)
Woke up after 3 hours of sleep every night with my sheets absolutely covered in sweat
Eventually got stable and survived

I guess this isn't too helpful, but drinking a liter of vodka a day isn't going to cause life-threatening withdrawals in my opinion. I know everyones body is different, but I think life threatening withdrawal comes from multiple years of drinking heavily, daily.

Along with other medication recommendations in this thread, a proper sleep medication such as trazodone/seroquel should be prescribed (not any of the z-drugs like ambien and sonata) as well as withdrawal medication such as gabapentin/pregabalin.

Benzos really shouldn't be overdone, if prescribed at all. Small doses of diazepam with the medication listed should be fine. The diazepam shouldn't be used for sleep, just the major anxiety that comes with the first few days of withdrawal. If you use too much, they will just be numbed from the withdrawal, not feel the pain, and just pick up the drink again, perhaps with a new benzo habit as well. I know you want them to be ok, but they need to feel the pain of getting clean, or they will never learn

just my 2 cents.
 
OH my god, there's so much misinformation in this thread about AA/NA and it's efficacy as a "treatment modality" that I'm going to puke. Let it be for what it is - a blessing in many, many, many addict's lives and a positive attraction to those who may consider themselves, at some point, to be in need of help. As they say, "We are a program of attraction, not promotion."

But seriously, I'm not going to quote specific people, but what f*cking ignorance when they discount AA/NA and propose their own regiments of how it 'should' go if one is a 'real' addict. Givemeabreak.

As for the topic;
mrflowers00 said:
25mg of librium 3 to 4x a day 10mg of valium 3 to 4x a day
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At the inpatient acute psychiatric facility where I am employed, these are the two medications-of-choice for detoxing off of alcohol in those severely addicted to it.

Ambien *may* provide some relief, as it affects the GABA complex, but it is more of a hypnotic and lacks the significant anticonvulsant effects that diazepam and chlordiazepoxide possess. It also lacks their longevity, so the Ambien would have to be administered to your family friend around six times a day which, for those unfamiliar with zolpidem tartrate, would leave one feeling like a zombified mess.

Trazadone will only promote sleep; it will do nothing to ward off or treat the symptoms (except possibly insomnia) of alcohol withdrawal syndrome. You really want to consider an adjunct AED (anti-epileptic drug) as alcohol withdrawal can frequently cause seizing, which can sometimes be deadly, as with the withdrawal from benzos. But benzos are the first line of defense and typically the most successful.

Well done on supporting him; I have been the addict in need of a host of familial support before, and understand a little better now the types of (frequently horrific) stresses that one in that unfortunate position can impose upon even those who love him/her the most! :( Chin up, bro. This, too, shall pass...

~ vaya
 
your stupid if you think you'll be able to get sober without AA/NA's twelve step program i've done rehab and detox and got a job and the only thing that kept me sober was working the steps given i did relapse that was on me not the program
 
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