Benzos Benzodiazapine tolerance

[goaway12345]

Hi all,

With Benzodiazapine tolerance which is the best route to lower my tolerance?
Lowering the dose every day, second or third etc
Or, not taking any at all every day?
I understand the risks involved in stopping altogether but nothing will happen to me as I don’t take them every day.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

oh gosh i forgot the name of the benzo taper chart -- ashton I think. Give it a google. Go slower than that if you can. 10% ever 2 weeks or month if I recall.

 

[paranoid android]

If your not dependent on them i would suggest a break. A 2 week break from clonazepam and bromazepam usually lowers my tolerance anyway

 

[4DQSAR]

oh gosh i forgot the name of the benzo taper chart -- ashton I think. Give it a google. Go slower than that if you can. 10% ever 2 weeks or month if I recall.

I would be a little careful using The Ashton Manual. I'm prescribed clobazam which is unique in being a 1,5-benzodiazepine and thus binds to a totally different set of GABA receptor subtypes. So in essence, you can't substitute clobazam. I constructed a very respectful and brief E-mail to Dr. Heather Ashton pointing out this slight mistake. I got a long complaint - as if I was responsbile for what I presume was a genuine mistake on her part.

But what concerns me is that rather than researching clobazam and how a reduction might be achieved, I noted later versions of the manuals just excluded clobazam.

I would also suggest caution with comparing nitrobenzodiazepines and other benzodiazepines as the former (generally used as hypnotics) don't just act on the GABA receptors but also as serotonin releasers (likely WHY they are better hypnotics). Someone dependent on a nitrobenzodiazepine might not find the standard 'swap to diazepam and reduce' an optimal answer. After all, serotonin affects mood so someone may 'feel' a reduction or substitution in ways not covered by that manual.

As for the various RC benzodiazepines, it's uncertain if they might have other activities. I mean, one enantiomer of meclonazepam is a potent deworming medication so who knows what these new things actually do.

 

[goaway12345]

oh gosh i forgot the name of the benzo taper chart -- ashton I think. Give it a google. Go slower than that if you can. 10% ever 2 weeks or month if I recall.

I have the hard copy.
I don't want to completely taper off them, I just want to lower my tolerance.

 

[4DQSAR]

I have the hard copy.
I don't want to completely taper off them, I just want to lower my tolerance.

Maybe a benzodiazepine with a relatively high affinity but low inherent efficacy? Bentazepam is the one I remember, but I think there are a few.

Decades ago I swapped from diazepam to bentazepam for a few weeks and I certainly noted that the diazepam seemed to work - but to be absolutely clear, I'm just giving my personal and subjective recollections. I'm not asserting that this is a recognized methodology.

 

[goaway12345]

Maybe a benzodiazepine with a relatively high affinity but low inherent efficacy? Bentazepam is the one I remember, but I think there are a few.

Decades ago I swapped from diazepam to bentazepam for a few weeks and I certainly noted that the diazepam seemed to work - but to be absolutely clear, I'm just giving my personal and subjective recollections. I'm not asserting that this is a recognized methodology.

Haven't heard of it, same as.melex I discovered a few weeks ago.

 

[4DQSAR]

Well, what I would say is that bentazepam certainly prevented the symptoms one expects from a benzo withdrawal but to be frank, it didn't really do anything else. It was a [P] medicine in Spain at the time so I quite legally ordered it out of curiosity. The fact it WAS a [P] rather than a [POM] may have been because it has little to no abuse potential.

I believe it is still out there.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

I have the hard copy.
I don't want to completely taper off them, I just want to lower my tolerance.

Gotya and you have my attention. May I ask what you currently take and your daily dosage --- any "hoarding capability?" I may or may not have been on triple digit c-lam daily and reeled it back in to 2mg clonazepam daily. Over many of years and using all of the tricks. I am sure you use benadryl or preferably clonodine for BP when you taper? (that is the main and first thing that comes to mind -- aside from finding something 'legal and plentiful' which is harder to do everyday from my understanding.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

I would be a little careful using The Ashton Manual. I'm prescribed clobazam which is unique in being a 1,5-benzodiazepine and thus binds to a totally different set of GABA receptor subtypes. So in essence, you can't substitute clobazam. I constructed a very respectful and brief E-mail to Dr. Heather Ashton pointing out this slight mistake. I got a long complaint - as if I was responsbile for what I presume was a genuine mistake on her part.

But what concerns me is that rather than researching clobazam and how a reduction might be achieved, I noted later versions of the manuals just excluded clobazam.

I would also suggest caution with comparing nitrobenzodiazepines and other benzodiazepines as the former (generally used as hypnotics) don't just act on the GABA receptors but also as serotonin releasers (likely WHY they are better hypnotics). Someone dependent on a nitrobenzodiazepine might not find the standard 'swap to diazepam and reduce' an optimal answer. After all, serotonin affects mood so someone may 'feel' a reduction or substitution in ways not covered by that manual.

As for the various RC benzodiazepines, it's uncertain if they might have other activities. I mean, one enantiomer of meclonazepam is a potent deworming medication so who knows what these new things actually do.

This is correct and important to note. Sorry to double post. The ashton manual is a bit reductionist/dated but the best place to start I can think. Never played with meclonazepam (deworming, wierd??) was lucky enough to be in on the initial phenaz/etiz/c-lam etc curve --- I remember there being a theory that etizolam may give you "bitch tits" which at the time I had to write off as "Same Bs they said about pot" but in reality the science was a bit over my head...

 

[4DQSAR]

I can't really comment on the later RC benzos or indeed those that were never approved for use within the EU. I only mentioned meclonazepam to illustrate the point that I'm seeing more and more divegence from compounds for which we have data - in essence we don't know how safe they are. I think many people presume that since diazepam is sort of famous for how non-toxic it is (people surviving intentinal overdoses in the range of GRAMS), we may fall into the trap of presuming that same level of safety. Certainly that isn't true for nitrobenzodiazepines. I have mentioned that a few times.

I honestly haven't touched anything I wasn't prescribed for many years. I suggest that it's unlikely that anyone would produce 'fake' bentazepam tablets simply because it's not really abusable. So if you do find it - it's almost certainly going to BE bentazepam.

As I said, I ordered my bentazepam from an on-line pharmacy in Spain. I can't list sources but as far as I can tell, it's still in use in Spain and although now it's technically a [POM] due to an EU dictum on controlled drugs. But it also seems like they are prepared to allow on-line consultations. I've never done this as I'm uncertain what the legal position is, but quite a few support on-line consultations in English. Which is unexpected, to me, anyway.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

aye --- I was hypothetically ordering the powders back before alot of online groups and what were busted up. These were mostly compounds that were prescribed at one point someplace so research was fairly plentiful.

Nitrobenzos -- Etiz falls into that category? Or is that theinobenzos (or w/e)?

I know stateside bromazolam was the main active ingredient in alot of "Larger quantity" deals -- or corner xanax. I have not heard of bentazepam fakes but that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[4DQSAR]

Nitrobenzos -- Etiz falls into that category? Or is that theinobenzos (or w/e)?

Anything with 'nitro or nitra' in it's name is usually the giveaway but if you buy powders, who really knows? I mean, if you are prepared to pay for a GC-MS and NMR of a powder and put it online somewhere, I can tell you what it is, but I don't think there is a specific test for nitrobenzodiazepines. I'm sure you know of nitrazepam, flunitrazepam, nitrazolam and flunitrqazolam - well, they are all nitrobenzodiazepines. BUT so is clobazan, so names don't ALWAYS tell the story.

Before designing pyrazolam, I took a carefully look at forensic journals from around the world. What I kept noting was that nitrazapam or flunitrazepam were quite often detected in the bodies of people who had intentionally overdosed. A few clonazapam, but the two 'sleepers' were the ones that even when consumed alone, if consumed in large amounts, had the capacity to kill. Compare that to diazepam where we have records of people swallowing multiple grams of the stuff (I presume in persuit of self destruction) only for them to sleep for a week but to make a full recovery.

As far as I can tell, bentazepam is only used in Spain. But as I mentioned before, on-line consultations in English seem to be offered by a few Spanish sites. I don't know why and I'm dubious that an on-line consultation with a Spanish doctor (I would expect) means that a prescription medication can legally be sent to a customer in the UK. Especially not since Brexit. I have no wish to test what is a grey area.

There IS a potent hypnotic that isn't controlled ANYWHERE (as far as I can tell). Clomethiazole is, oddly, not covered because it's so rarely prescribed. But I must issue the sternest warning concerning clomethiazole. It's at least as hazardous as a barbituate, alcohol multiplies it's activity and to prove the point, Keith Moon who survived necking handfuls of pills for decades died from taking clomethiazole and alcohol. For treatment of alcohol dependence, I think it's an amazing tool. But it requires an iron will not to overuse and is an unforgiving medicine if abused.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Was fortunate enough to have the GC-MS NMR report come with the powders. (of course easy to umm lie -- they supplied most of the other RC sites if I understand how things happened correctly) However if you ordered multiple things they were not great at telling you what was what -- for example "One of these is 25nbome One is Clam---weigh out a mg out of one bag and see which direction research goes lol.

For awhile there was a lab (different people) that they would set a pricepoint for synthesis and ppl would hypothetically chip in to have it done and of course that also came with GC-MS NMR.

I am not really interested in looking for more as I don't need to go down that path again, clomethiazole sounds useful to many but not me; i barely survived GBL. (enough CNS depressants floatin around) -- I do think it bears repeating that as they ban and change things you get further away from the well studied and safe compounds.

Avisafone seems to be the exception to that as it becomes diazepam. If I recall Rilmafizone becames something less desirable but well studied.

*edit* than there are some much less clear that just go by numbers -- being a laymens I notice the nameless ones are usually to be avoided. u447780? (The first iteration of that being the exception; well I am sure there are more but I avoid them on simple "I dont understand that therefor I fear it" instinct.)

Just for clarification of what a laymens I am --- I brought those GC-MS NMR reports down to campus (Which I attended at the time) for interpretation. Looked like one spiked line to me than somewhere on there you could find a percent purity which luckily was always over 98% (according to whomever). 98% seems really impressive and is as long as no other actives are present. (Correct me if I am wrong; but sometimes a synthesis can be incomplete or degrades *CORRECT ME* but for some reason what comes to mind is someone getting busted buying a meth analog because a good chunk of it was in fact meth unbeknownst to the buyer) who I believe got a controlled delivery setup on them.

FTR I am more asking if such a thing is possible and how common it may be not about this one off anectdotal.

 

[4DQSAR]

Was fortunate enough to have the GC-MS NMR report come with the powders.

The problem with that is that you are relying on that instrumental data having been measured from the same batch as the powder you get. It cost something like £400 per sample a decade ago so vendors have a finanical interest in not testing each batch.

I also found a few specific cases of slightly dubious analytical labs who weren't strictly testing samples - they were just sending back the result the vendor wanted.

I don't know the details on the instrumential data you have and if there are ways to ensure that such data is reliable - if those issues have been solved, that's a great step forward in end-user safery.

In the end, an adult should have the right to consume whatever they wish but their choice should be based on informed consent.

Clomethiazole is HEAVY. I mean, it should be treated as a DLR (drug of last resort) but I was drinking 2 bottles of gin per day and could get no help. So in my case, appropriate. I used it for just 12 days - a quick reduction to get over the acute withdrawal. I flushed the rest because, well, because it's a lot like alcohol and clomethiazole dependence was the reason it's now only prescribed in in-patient settings.

There are a few novel benzodiazepine prodrugs. The WAY prodrugs convert in vivo to actives can be applied to almost all of the benzodiazepine. There are several different ways they work and at least one will work for every 1,4-benzodiazepine I can think of.

 

[canadianpeduser]

Following. Currently taking lorazepam for anxiety every 4-6 hours. Lately ive often skipped doses because even after 2 weeks i notice a strong tolerance developing . Ive been waiting until night to take my 5-6 mg as this is when my anxiety usually creeps up. I don’t plan on being on it for long but I’d guess it’s easier to work on an immediate daily taper. Or dose reduction.
I haven’t enough experience with benzos to share deeply on this thread but I’m curious to see how others respond

 

[4DQSAR]

In the UK it's generally accepted that benzodiazepines are only useful for the short-term treatment of severe anxiety because tolerance and dependence occur quite quickly.

IF you find taking a single dose at night gives you the best quality of life (best outcome) then by all means. Lorazepam is favoured for it's safety and the fact that it has not active metabolites. But if anxiety is ongoing, benzos may not be the best answer.

The fact you are considering these issues strikes me as someone who is more aware than the average patient.

 

[canadianpeduser]

In the UK it's generally accepted that benzodiazepines are only useful for the short-term treatment of severe anxiety because tolerance and dependence occur quite quickly.

IF you find taking a single dose at night gives you the best quality of life (best outcome) then by all means. Lorazepam is favoured for it's safety and the fact that it has not active metabolites. But if anxiety is ongoing, benzos may not be the best answer.

The fact you are considering these issues strikes me as someone who is more aware than the average patient.

Since my teens ive played around with all kinds of pharmaceuticals. Sometimes to my own detriment. But over the years I guess I’ve learned my limits. Pills are easy for me to control and play with. It’s those nasty street drugs that really fuck me up that im doing my utmost to stay clear of. (I.e meth, fent, coke)

 

[4DQSAR]

A VERY wise path to choose. But it's still important to be informed. A friend of mine drew this some 30 odd years ago:

benz — Postimages

postimg.cc

At the time patients weren't warned of the potential risks benzodizepines present. In fact, in the 70s and 80s if the average person went to their doctor complaining of anxiety of insomnia, doctors actually LOVED benzos because they worked almost like magic. Patients would typically feel better within a day or two and even if they swallowed a whole bottle of the things, they would typically recover - unlike barbiturates, which benzos replaced. So given the low cost of benzos, a lot of doctors essentially felt that they were a panacea of sorts. I guess it was no different to the Victorian doctor prescribing laudanum.

It took a long time for doctors to recognize that if a patient DID return, just upping the dose wasn't a great plan. But by then there were many thousands of regular people who wouldn't think of touching a 'drug' who had, without knowing, become addicted to benzos. In the end the company behind Mogadon (nitrazepam) were taken to court. They were GIVING Mogadon to hospitals free of charge knowing that enough patients would ask for more...

 

[canadianpeduser]

A VERY wise path to choose. But it's still important to be informed. A friend of mine drew this some 30 odd years ago:

benz — Postimages

postimg.cc

At the time patients weren't warned of the potential risks benzodizepines present. In fact, in the 70s and 80s if the average person went to their doctor complaining of anxiety of insomnia, doctors actually LOVED benzos because they worked almost like magic. Patients would typically feel better within a day or two and even if they swallowed a whole bottle of the things, they would typically recover - unlike barbiturates, which benzos replaced. So given the low cost of benzos, a lot of doctors essentially felt that they were a panacea of sorts. I guess it was no different to the Victorian doctor prescribing laudanum.

It took a long time for doctors to recognize that if a patient DID return, just upping the dose wasn't a great plan. But by then there were many thousands of regular people who wouldn't think of touching a 'drug' who had, without knowing, become addicted to benzos. In the end the company behind Mogadon (nitrazepam) were taken to court. They were GIVING Mogadon to hospitals free of charge knowing that enough patients would ask for more...

Quite ironic considering mogadon was my fav benzo ever. Fuck I remember being able to get them for a couple bucks a piece and it was like 3 Valium in 1