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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Benzos Benzo cut off
- Thread starter ZoeCat
- Start date
Getting off the evil
Thanks for all the wise advice. 1. I don't drink. Because it's like mixing oil and water. Was able to quit in 1 day. So obviously more a psychological crutch then a physical one - didn't need AA - just the mind set that I was an a**hole when I drank. Was binge drinking (not every day) after someone really close was killed. Just woke up one morning and decided this is not the answer - and hated the way I treated people when loaded! Afraid to take ever again as it's been over a decade since I touched the stuff! That is not to slam the people who struggle with a physical addiction - as that has to be hell. Right now on low doses of clonazepam. Much better as need only 2 a day and keeps me from flipping out. Moved from major city to the boonies - finding a decent doctors is harder then finding a needle in a hay stack. They have a detox clinic, my friend went to, but insurance won't cover and do not have $500 a day to cover privately. Hoping local source will keep up the klonopin in small batches for the moth. As for being liable for sudden cut off - you can't get through evil receptionist to evil receptionist to even talk with dr. The whole practice is on lock down since getting sued. So going to hope local source supplies low amount of klonopin - to taper off over a month. At the cost of getting this way - keeps the low doses a must - since paying mortgage is 1st in the list. Thank you all for help - not judgement!!!! Am more grateful then I can say. Muddy - the phenobarbital arrived today - safe to take with klonopin or avoid??! The sample of butalbital was 50 mg - will this cause the big sleep at low dosages- or depends in each person's metabolism? Do not want to die! Rather live free of drs!!!!!! Going to clean out post box - so can shoot me pm. Thank you all!!!
Thanks for all the wise advice. 1. I don't drink. Because it's like mixing oil and water. Was able to quit in 1 day. So obviously more a psychological crutch then a physical one - didn't need AA - just the mind set that I was an a**hole when I drank. Was binge drinking (not every day) after someone really close was killed. Just woke up one morning and decided this is not the answer - and hated the way I treated people when loaded! Afraid to take ever again as it's been over a decade since I touched the stuff! That is not to slam the people who struggle with a physical addiction - as that has to be hell. Right now on low doses of clonazepam. Much better as need only 2 a day and keeps me from flipping out. Moved from major city to the boonies - finding a decent doctors is harder then finding a needle in a hay stack. They have a detox clinic, my friend went to, but insurance won't cover and do not have $500 a day to cover privately. Hoping local source will keep up the klonopin in small batches for the moth. As for being liable for sudden cut off - you can't get through evil receptionist to evil receptionist to even talk with dr. The whole practice is on lock down since getting sued. So going to hope local source supplies low amount of klonopin - to taper off over a month. At the cost of getting this way - keeps the low doses a must - since paying mortgage is 1st in the list. Thank you all for help - not judgement!!!! Am more grateful then I can say. Muddy - the phenobarbital arrived today - safe to take with klonopin or avoid??! The sample of butalbital was 50 mg - will this cause the big sleep at low dosages- or depends in each person's metabolism? Do not want to die! Rather live free of drs!!!!!! Going to clean out post box - so can shoot me pm. Thank you all!!!
Where Wolf?
Bluelighter
Booze isn't the answer: it raises the seizure threshold initially, then lowers it. It can provide short-term relief, but you really need to find a doctor who'll agree a diaz taper. Butalbital's as weak as barbiturates get, but you still shouldn't really drink on it.
'medicine cabinet'
Bluelighter
seriously, go to another dr. benzo addiction is no joke. i had been hitting them hard and ran out and called a dr friend of the family and he called me in 60 1mgs. I would def find another dr who can help you taper down properly, bring you previous rx, paperwork, and everything you have. its not something thats in your control, its your drs problem. good luck to you, my sister had 2 xanax wd induced seizures.
'medicine cabinet'
Bluelighter
how did that happen? you get tossed in jail? benzos especially triazalo benzos like xanax that are short acting are really dangerous to stop taking abruptly. how long were you on them?
ErgicMergic
Bluelighter
^Agreed, just don't take gabapentin/pregabalin with ANY dosage of butalbital or any other barbiturate for that matter.... they potentiate benzos/alcohol/barbs like mad, so skip it altogether. Butalbital almost killed one of BL's closest members... he drank only 7 beers after a whole 6 hours after a dose of only 100mg butalbital.
I would try going to another doctor, telling him your story and be totally honest, and most good doctors will hook you up with at least a small (15-20 count) script for a long-acting benzo to take once a day, so since you were taking 2mg of xanax/day, he would give you 0.5mg klonopin once/twice a day, or, even better, 5-10mg valium, once or twice a day.
2mg xanax = 40mg valium = 2mg klonopin
so...
0.5mg xanax = 10mg valium = 0.5mg klonopin (ideal starting dosage once or twice a day for a quick taper)
You don't need to take a lot, just enough to relieve WD symptoms. Remember, you're not trying to become relaxed and medicated when your main priority is warding off withdrawals; all you need is maybe 0.5-0.75mg clonazepam (klonopin) or 10-15mg diazepam (valium) taken once a day to "hold" you physically and relieve rebound anxiety (a symptom of benzo wd), not to relieve your "natural," baseline levels of anxiety that you had before you got on a daily benzo regimen.
If all this doesn't work, then go to a good health food store around you and buy the herb pharm kava tinctures in the glass bottles, they are an extremely legit kava tincture, and the liquid solution makes it easy to make small cuts in your taper since a dose is about 40-80 drops in a 600 drop (1 fl oz) bottle. I would say 120 drops = ~0.25mg xanax, and it's short acting enough to use twice a day but long-acting enough not to have any serious rebound anxiety, since the half-life of kavain is about 9 hours.
Another great physical anxiety remedy: chelated magnesium! It has to be chelated since the other aren't bioavailable, but if you take 300-600mg chelated Mg on an empty stomach, along with 100-300mg L-Theanine (a nootropic amino acid that works more like a drug, similar to gabapentin/pregabalin in terms of molecular structure) twice a day. Also, 0.5-1mg melatonin taken at nighttime is a nice hypnotic (not sedative) that is also GABAergic and reduces daytime anxiety, but doses higher than 1mg tend to be counterproductive and just cause massive headaches.
Remember this, with tapers, slow and steady wins the race! Good luck
I would try going to another doctor, telling him your story and be totally honest, and most good doctors will hook you up with at least a small (15-20 count) script for a long-acting benzo to take once a day, so since you were taking 2mg of xanax/day, he would give you 0.5mg klonopin once/twice a day, or, even better, 5-10mg valium, once or twice a day.
2mg xanax = 40mg valium = 2mg klonopin
so...
0.5mg xanax = 10mg valium = 0.5mg klonopin (ideal starting dosage once or twice a day for a quick taper)
You don't need to take a lot, just enough to relieve WD symptoms. Remember, you're not trying to become relaxed and medicated when your main priority is warding off withdrawals; all you need is maybe 0.5-0.75mg clonazepam (klonopin) or 10-15mg diazepam (valium) taken once a day to "hold" you physically and relieve rebound anxiety (a symptom of benzo wd), not to relieve your "natural," baseline levels of anxiety that you had before you got on a daily benzo regimen.
If all this doesn't work, then go to a good health food store around you and buy the herb pharm kava tinctures in the glass bottles, they are an extremely legit kava tincture, and the liquid solution makes it easy to make small cuts in your taper since a dose is about 40-80 drops in a 600 drop (1 fl oz) bottle. I would say 120 drops = ~0.25mg xanax, and it's short acting enough to use twice a day but long-acting enough not to have any serious rebound anxiety, since the half-life of kavain is about 9 hours.
Another great physical anxiety remedy: chelated magnesium! It has to be chelated since the other aren't bioavailable, but if you take 300-600mg chelated Mg on an empty stomach, along with 100-300mg L-Theanine (a nootropic amino acid that works more like a drug, similar to gabapentin/pregabalin in terms of molecular structure) twice a day. Also, 0.5-1mg melatonin taken at nighttime is a nice hypnotic (not sedative) that is also GABAergic and reduces daytime anxiety, but doses higher than 1mg tend to be counterproductive and just cause massive headaches.
Remember this, with tapers, slow and steady wins the race! Good luck
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Mycotheologist
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2012
- Messages
- 141
You might be able to check yourself into a clinic where they will manage the withdrawal process for you. This is just a wild guess, I have no idea if it'd work but maybe chloroform or ether would help suppress the symptoms. Also, I hear NMDA antagonists like ketamine give good temporary relief. There is one called methoxametamine (maybe I spelled that wrong) and its like a milder version of ketamine but it lasts much longer.
When you get over the acute withdrawal, I recommend looking into flumazenil to try and reverse the PAWs. Benzos are the trickiest substances I've come across in terms of addiction. I can come up with a million safe ways to suppress an opioid withdrawal and accelerate the recovery (even by reversing the tolerance, i.e. by using proglumide or NMDA antagonists) but with benzos, the only promising thing I know of for accelerating recovery is flumazenil. There plenty of ways to suppress the symptoms though. Clonidine + gabapentin/pregabalin helps. Baclofen can also work wonders but be careful with that because like its unpredictable and can actually cause seizures in high doses. Also you can't take it for more than a couple of months to prevent becoming addicted to it. Baclofen withdrawals aren't pleasant either.
There are also of course many antidepressants and antipsychotics that can really help with getting through the acute part as well as dealing with the PAWs. I tried trazodone for mild PAWs and it works like a charm. I used it to sleep at night but it left me feeling relaxed and relatively symptom free the next day. Its similar to mirtazapine and both of these drugs give you the munchies which is good. Mirtazapine has way more antihistamine properties so it would probably help prevent nausea too. Trazadone and mirtazipine are serotonin antagonist reuptake inhibitors so they're not the same as SSRIs. I hear SSRIs and SNRIs help with benzo w/d symptoms too. Withdrawals from SSRIs an SNRIs are no joke though so make sure you don't use them too long.
As for antipsychotics, I have no experience or knowledge about their potential in alleviating benzo w/d symptoms but I strongly suspect they do due to their non selective binding profiles. They may be a life saver in the case of an acute withdrawal because I suspect they may stop the psychosis. Then again, I don't know the mechanism by which benzo w/d causes psychosis so they may even make it worse. The mainstream theory is that atypical antipsychotics like seroquel prevent psychosis by blocking dopamine receptors. I don't know if overactive dopamine receptors is the culprit in benzo w/d.
Its fucked up that benzo users have to live in this hell. Opioid users at least have known options such as iboga treatment and lesser known treatments such as proglumide (its a CRF-inhitor I think, or else thats antalarmine I'm thinking of but both of these classes of drugs reverse opioid tolerance) and NMDA antagonists. To reverse benzo withdrawals, the only viable method I'm aware of is flumazenil. However, its possible that ayahuasca and iboga mgiht cure PAWS. I tried kambo for benzo PAWs and it didn't work unfortunately. I also tried non visionary doses of iboga and it helped, but in no way cured the symptoms. An iboga flood on the other hand is something different entirely. With iboga, its all or nothing. To reap the rewards you have to go all the way and do a flood (a high dose that induces a 24 hour visionary state).
When you get over the acute withdrawal, I recommend looking into flumazenil to try and reverse the PAWs. Benzos are the trickiest substances I've come across in terms of addiction. I can come up with a million safe ways to suppress an opioid withdrawal and accelerate the recovery (even by reversing the tolerance, i.e. by using proglumide or NMDA antagonists) but with benzos, the only promising thing I know of for accelerating recovery is flumazenil. There plenty of ways to suppress the symptoms though. Clonidine + gabapentin/pregabalin helps. Baclofen can also work wonders but be careful with that because like its unpredictable and can actually cause seizures in high doses. Also you can't take it for more than a couple of months to prevent becoming addicted to it. Baclofen withdrawals aren't pleasant either.
There are also of course many antidepressants and antipsychotics that can really help with getting through the acute part as well as dealing with the PAWs. I tried trazodone for mild PAWs and it works like a charm. I used it to sleep at night but it left me feeling relaxed and relatively symptom free the next day. Its similar to mirtazapine and both of these drugs give you the munchies which is good. Mirtazapine has way more antihistamine properties so it would probably help prevent nausea too. Trazadone and mirtazipine are serotonin antagonist reuptake inhibitors so they're not the same as SSRIs. I hear SSRIs and SNRIs help with benzo w/d symptoms too. Withdrawals from SSRIs an SNRIs are no joke though so make sure you don't use them too long.
As for antipsychotics, I have no experience or knowledge about their potential in alleviating benzo w/d symptoms but I strongly suspect they do due to their non selective binding profiles. They may be a life saver in the case of an acute withdrawal because I suspect they may stop the psychosis. Then again, I don't know the mechanism by which benzo w/d causes psychosis so they may even make it worse. The mainstream theory is that atypical antipsychotics like seroquel prevent psychosis by blocking dopamine receptors. I don't know if overactive dopamine receptors is the culprit in benzo w/d.
Its fucked up that benzo users have to live in this hell. Opioid users at least have known options such as iboga treatment and lesser known treatments such as proglumide (its a CRF-inhitor I think, or else thats antalarmine I'm thinking of but both of these classes of drugs reverse opioid tolerance) and NMDA antagonists. To reverse benzo withdrawals, the only viable method I'm aware of is flumazenil. However, its possible that ayahuasca and iboga mgiht cure PAWS. I tried kambo for benzo PAWs and it didn't work unfortunately. I also tried non visionary doses of iboga and it helped, but in no way cured the symptoms. An iboga flood on the other hand is something different entirely. With iboga, its all or nothing. To reap the rewards you have to go all the way and do a flood (a high dose that induces a 24 hour visionary state).
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Thank you all for taking your time and experience to help!!! Right now on 2 klonopin a day. Seems to be a slow way to tapper off. No major flip outs - just a less intense way to keep anxiety at livable levels.
Can not to program - insurance doesn't pay. Plus I am an agnostic - and not judging people who look for a "high power" for help but think it's up to me and me alone. About personal choice. I stopped drinking years ago and did the same getting of cigs - though that was harder. My sister-in-law went through many programs for crack - one felt humiliation was the way to keep everyone in check. Ultimately - you will still be cut loose, at home, and have to control yourself. There will be no group calling you a looser if you fail to live up to the programs standards. But if programs have helped people - great!!!! What ever works for the individual person.
Can not to program - insurance doesn't pay. Plus I am an agnostic - and not judging people who look for a "high power" for help but think it's up to me and me alone. About personal choice. I stopped drinking years ago and did the same getting of cigs - though that was harder. My sister-in-law went through many programs for crack - one felt humiliation was the way to keep everyone in check. Ultimately - you will still be cut loose, at home, and have to control yourself. There will be no group calling you a looser if you fail to live up to the programs standards. But if programs have helped people - great!!!! What ever works for the individual person.
T. Calderone
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2010
- Messages
- 8,982
I'm glad you found some klonopin. You mentioned phenobarbitol previously which you should be careful not to mix with other drugs, very sedating.
Can you take the Gabapentin as you are tapering off the level of Xanax you take. I do not drink and will not be taking barbiturates. Just had a really great day where I called the nurse in my drs practice - to help me. Explained I was addicted, needed a referral to a dr. or clinic, and just enough Xanax until dr. Or clinic could see me. Nurse who has prescribed the Xanax for 3-4 years said "it is not my responsibility" go to the ER. Didn't give referral to a clinic, didn't give any medicine, didn't even recommend which ER to go to. When I pointed out she helped another patient who was taking 27 precoset a day - gave her enough to not lip out until she could get to the clinic referred to by nurse - nurse said that was totally different and I had no right to question her. I will make it my life mission to sue this practice and get that nurses medical license revoked!
HaZeX
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2011
- Messages
- 384
Right on! Serisouly that is wrong. I believe legally a Dr by law has to help you taper off a benzo; however I could be wrong. I do believe you can go to the ER and explain your problem and get a diazepam taper.
Thanks to you all for you advice and help. Bluelight is so great! Full of help, advice - but not judgement!!! I called my doctors office yesterday. Stated I was addicted. Was out if the 3 month script they gave me 2 weeks early - thus a clear sign of my addiction- and that I needed a referral to a specialist to help me withdrawal or an out patient clinic. The very nurse who has prescribed s the Benzos for years said "I was not her responsibility.!" Go to the ER. I had a friend who she got addicted to painkillers - who she did give enough medicine to last until she got to clinic recommended by nurse practitioner. When I ask why she helped this friend and was not helping me - she said it was "different" and I had no right to judge her! Basically got the F-k off from a dr. I am asking to help. Been up all night and will start calling other drs to see if they will help. Found a good clinic but they may not take my insurance.
Oh - I am down to .5 mg of Xanax and freaking if I do not get help. I still o not get is phenibut an experimental Benzo? If I must take it today to stop possible seizures - how much do you take? My horrid nurse had me on .5 mg Xanax 4 times a day. Which I increased - thus my addiction to 6 times a day to stop the crazy up down swings.