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Ayahuasca and all its glory... forbidden fruit?

psyfiend

psyfiend

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
229
So I've been meaning to take a trip to the Amazon for like 5 years now... (since I've watched the old documentaries), but I'm not sure because most websites I've come across are just tourist attractions and that's not the point. I want the real shaman, not some gimmick.

Anyways I met someone the other day who had some knowledge about this and told me, Westerners don't get the same treatment/ceremony because we're not from the culture. And also said westerners should NOT seek this experience, all the other drugs in the world are for "fun" and an experience and meaningless and that Ayahuasca finds you. You can't find it, than it it has a real purpose....

I understand the underlining meaning of all this ^^ DMT and I smoked DMT multiple times I never met "god" though/broke through the plateau though :( my friends have though... Maybe because I was the one who sought it out?

I might as well just eat some shrooms and hit the reset button, for now. Any input on this? As to why one should NOT seek the Ayahuasca experience?

Not that you wanna hear it but ya... the tribute! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1fPFjsjl5c
 
i think that is non sense and i do believe you don't need a shaman too.
 
some people got mad at me kind of when i posted about this earlier.
chances are the forbidden fruit was a DMT ripe tree. As was the burning bush.
Some species of Acacia bear fruit, some Species of Acacia are Extinct. Some Species of Acacia in Iraq, and Egypt have been noted to contain more than 22% alkaloids.
Most Acacias are active orally without the need for an MAOI inhibitor.

Acacia was used for a lot of things, and i imagine they may have accidentally made a psychedelic wine, using Acacia Barrels.
I imagine because they weren't aware of what would happen if an entire culture used one specific tree which takes hundreds of years to become mature would do.
So i imagine our cultural amnesia was brought on by our accidental extinction of a profoundly religious plant, which helped dictate all of the religions we have in the world today.
If they did have a Middle Eastern Ayahuasca... ahahhaha well the MAO would be Syrian Rue Obviously.

http://www.acacialand.com/
 
That's a rather xenophobic view. I particularly disagree that all the world's other psychedelics are for fun only. What about all the other shamanic plants and traditions? And all of the profound, life-changing experiences westerners and others have had on all sorts of substances? Some people have ayahuasca snobbery I feel. We're all different and every experience is different. I've read plenty of reports of ayahuasca experiences that fell short too. My most profound experiences have been on mushrooms, 2C-E and even MXE (separate experiences), and not on DMT at all or even close (though I have yet to try ayahuasca)
 
I agree there is a lot of ayahuasca snobbery out there. You shouldn't care too much about those narrow views.
For example: while there are still (a few) "pure" indigenous ayahuasca rituals, most of them, at least in Brazil, have a lot of christian influence in them and some of those christian ayahuasca sects also think their ritual is the only way how it should be done. They are just as snob as this someone you met! In some rituals they tell you when you should sit, stand up, sing, drink water or take a shit, or forbid men to be near women because "those energies shouldn't be mixed" 8( ... Thats why I still refrain myself from ayahuasca, despite having smoked DMT many times and although there are dozens of sects where I live. People just make up a lot of rules and they not necessarily fit to you.
In Brazil (as anywhere else) every different place you go there will be different rituals and different interpretations about the meaning of the experience, and I don't think there is one more or less valid or real, it depends on what fits better to your beliefs.
Anyway, if you still want to seek "real" shaman, which I guess it means an older ritual and unaltered by western culture you should probably look in Acre (a north-western state in Brazil), although you can find it in other places.
What may be true is that westerners wouldn't be able to understand very well the symbols of a less westernised indigenous culture, making it more difficult to share their experience, so you probably should do a little research about their culture and maybe even eat, drink and sleep with them for a few days if you want to have a more immersive experience.
 
I think there is a spectrum ranging from psychedelics that tend to be strongly spiritual and deep to ones that tend to be mild, forgiving, superficial and mostly enhancing.
And the rather serious ones IMO demand more respectful use including positive, clear and accepting intentions. Or in other words: you could run into problems if you try to use heavy psychedelics with little attention to set and setting just to get some eye candy.

Keeping it in a shamanistic setting under their supervision is probably a cultural thing and a way to try and keep people from ignorant abuse. Of course that is a sort of anti-libertarian elitism. People here who have gathered experience and knowledge and feel confident about safely planning a trip with something like ayahuasca will probably feel offended that their credentials are not acknowledged.
But, granted, there is not really any quality control the way we modern trippers / would-be shamans approach this. There are no traditions taught and tested, we find out on our own or maybe guidance from good friends. I guess that leaves less room for bias or superstition, one of the advantages we might have. Then again there is also probably value in ancient knowledge, and even rituals serve functions with regard to psychological programming via formal 'guidelines', even if it is all in the mind that is no reason to dismiss it.

So, no I don't think a traditional shamanistic setting is required... but depending on the caliber of the psychedelic that is taken you need to make up for the guidance, experience, knowledge and the rest of well-composed set & setting that may be missing without a guide.
 
The whole idea of having some fucking shaman who stands between you and the drug fills me with utter horror. I absolutely couldn't give a fuck about some sweaty old brazilian with shit for breath telling me what he thinks about ayahuasca. I'll take it in my own home and have my own experience - that's the whole point of psychedelics. You don't need anyone but yourself. No church, no God and no fucking half-baked "shamen" who make a living off gullible western tourists.
 
I agree^1000%...That is what psychedelics are about...personal experience.
Having someone guide you and interpret what is an ineffible experience is impossible...it's like a shrink telling you what your dreams mean.
I've drunk ayahuasca many times and I was alone virtually every time...my "shaman" was Google...my experiences ranged from light and comical to deep and dark...and honestly, I don't know what any of them actually mean, but they were good for my soul nonetheless.
Get onloine and just do it...any way you like.
 
Ismene said:
The whole idea of having some fucking shaman who stands between you and the drug fills me with utter horror. I absolutely couldn't give a fuck about some sweaty old brazilian with shit for breath telling me what he thinks about ayahuasca. I'll take it in my own home and have my own experience - that's the whole point of psychedelics. You don't need anyone but yourself. No church, no God and no fucking half-baked "shamen" who make a living off gullible western tourists.
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Yours is a very materialistic point of view. Ayahuasqueiros would counter that the drug opens up a line of communication with an intelligent entity, or rather a realm full of intelligent entities. The shaman has "been there, done that", and his purpose is to help you navigate the realm while not treading on toes of any of its inhabitants, so that they may look kindly upon you and you in turn can derive maximum benefit from the experience. While getting lost in a jungle can be fun, you also run the risk of getting eaten by a tiger, which is why having an experienced jungeleer by your side, one who knows how to avoid/ward off the beasts and can show you where the beautiful plants and animals gather, can be a pretty good idea.

Obviously, at that point, with that understanding, it isn't so much about the "point of psychedelics", rather than about the point of the ayahuasca spiritual plane. This is a massive, and, I'm afraid irreconcilable difference of opinion on the actual nature of whatever it is that happens after you drink ayahuasca. That's also why it looks like the ayahuasca crowd and the "other psychedelics" crowd don't seem to mix very well, despite both groups undergoing essentially similar experiences. It's after they have come down that the bickering starts.

I can't say that I fault the shamen, though - the viewpoint that there is such a thing as a "spirit of the substance" resonates strongly with my own experiences. And them being the experts on this particular substance, I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

I am sure there must be a certain degree of awkwardness, especially for someone who has already formed their idea about what a psychedelic experience looks and feels like, to have a "sweaty old Brazilian" :D get very close indeed, blowing tobacco smoke into your nostrils as you're coming up on a strong DMT brew. Alas, the tribesmen would probably recoil in horror at the sight of hundreds of people out of their minds on LSD/25I/psych du jour "dancing" to a hypnotic beat at a psytrance festival. I guess we should all be a bit more accepting of the other :)
 
weirdling said:
The shaman has "been there, done that", and his purpose is to help you navigate the realm while not treading on toes of any of its inhabitants, so that they may look kindly upon you and you in turn can derive maximum benefit from the experience.
Click to expand...

True, but he's only going to interpret it according to his personal religious beliefs. How can a complete stranger in the third world advise you through a psychedelic experience? Surely we're going to experience things according to our own backgrounds and emotional makeup?

one who knows how to avoid/ward off the beasts and can show you where the beautiful plants and animals gather, can be a pretty good idea.

But I think the best person to do this is yourself. It's like making love to your girlfriend for the first time and having a little sweaty brazilian guy standing at the edge of the bed saying "Now fondle her tits". It might make the experience "safer" in some vague sense but it's not something I'd be particularly keen on.

That's also why it looks like the ayahuasca crowd and the "other psychedelics" crowd don't seem to mix very well

I'm not attacking the people who enjoy ayahuasca - more the religious ceremonies human beings have created to go along with it. Lets not put the ceremony before the DMT - the DMT is what you need to experience. Listening to the brazilian vicar and sitting in a nice mud hut with a picture of the mother mary on the wall is secondary.

And them being the experts on this particular substance, I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

Can you really be an expert on someone elses psychedelic experience? Particularly if you're forcing bizarre religious pentecostal/catholic interpretations onto the psychedelic like santo daime do.

I guess we should all be a bit more accepting of the other

I'm all for people enjoying psychedelics however they want to but I don't think you need anyone to tell you what to do while you're tripping. I think the point is you work through the experience yourself. It's a totally private matter between yourself and the psychedelic.

But if people want old brazilians blowing smoke up their nose then best of luck to them :D
 
Ismene said:
True, but he's only going to interpret it according to his personal religious beliefs. How can a complete stranger in the third world advise you through a psychedelic experience? Surely we're going to experience things according to our own backgrounds and emotional makeup?

one who knows how to avoid/ward off the beasts and can show you where the beautiful plants and animals gather, can be a pretty good idea.

But I think the best person to do this is yourself. It's like making love to your girlfriend for the first time and having a little sweaty brazilian guy standing at the edge of the bed saying "Now fondle her tits". It might make the experience "safer" in some vague sense but it's not something I'd be particularly keen on.

That's also why it looks like the ayahuasca crowd and the "other psychedelics" crowd don't seem to mix very well

I'm not attacking the people who enjoy ayahuasca - more the religious ceremonies human beings have created to go along with it. Lets not put the ceremony before the DMT - the DMT is what you need to experience. Listening to the brazilian vicar and sitting in a nice mud hut with a picture of the mother mary on the wall is secondary.

And them being the experts on this particular substance, I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

Can you really be an expert on someone elses psychedelic experience? Particularly if you're forcing bizarre religious pentecostal/catholic interpretations onto the psychedelic like santo daime do.

I guess we should all be a bit more accepting of the other

I'm all for people enjoying psychedelics however they want to but I don't think you need anyone to tell you what to do while you're tripping. I think the point is you work through the experience yourself. It's a totally private matter between yourself and the psychedelic.

But if people want old brazilians blowing smoke up their nose then best of luck to them :D
Click to expand...


Your whole argument seems to be focused in the individuality of the psychedelic experience. However, people from different cultures not rarely have similar/related psychedelic experiences, and this is particularly true with DMT. You seem to be one who believes that this happens solely because humans have similar neural structure. Nothing against, but many disagree with this view, me included.
I see it more as a collective experience in the sense that the drug connects us all to a similar level of reality be you a "sweaty brazilian" or a white american/european. We see similar things, but we use different symbols to interpret and describe what we sense and drawing such a thick line between YOUR experience and others` goes against this view.
The shaman shouldn't be there to tell an you how you must interpret what you experience, but only be there to guide you, through his understanding and symbolism, in this new level of reality. Oh, It can be frightening to feel alone there!
I admit I am not an expert on the subject, but again I am just saying what I would expect from a shaman... I think it is too simplistic to see them as mere "third world" strangers and forget the fact that those people dedicate their life to explore other realms and to help other people in it.
From this we can make a parallel with religion. At a first view they all look so different but, if you look closer, they all seem to try to transmit a very similar message.
Maybe you have a lot of discipline and you don't need any guidance to get the most of a psychedelic experience, but thats not true for everyone. For myself, I am curious to what can be achieved through a more ritualistic environment.
 
How does the shaman guide you through something that is happening inside your own head? All he is offering is a set of deluded religious beliefs that he finds helpful during his high. If you don't believe in the mother mary or the "jaguar" or whatever belief system he had handed down to him from his particular culture then what can he offer you?

Surely by forcing your personal experience to conform to his religious beliefs he is taking you furthur and furthur away from a genuine experience?
 
Whoa, that escalated very fast. I saw bad documentaries where there was a crazy shaman ritual where they torture frog's for 5-meo-dmt and then they spit out the drug, once collected they'd cut holes in their skin and rub the drug in the blood so it kicks in faster. Its was bizarre as hell, like the worst ritual ever. But there was another one and it was about a family one and his wife moved to the Amazon and had a son named Shaman. It was a BEAUTIFUL story, The shaman saw through his body like a piece of glass and told him he had a problem with his spine... me wants that Shaman! lol

I found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca1TGqODjzM
 
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Yeah I remember that doc, the shaman was disappointed in the westerner taking the ayahuasca and said he was a pussy or something at the end because he wouldn't drink tobacco snot out of his nose or some shit.
 
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