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RCs Assuming 4-FA is benign, what is wrong with stimulant abuse?

Marauder

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
245
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Us.. and them.
I've taken my last 3-Fa dose 10 hours ago and I'm giving the rest away. I'm going to crash, but here's what I've been noticing lately. (I'll correct and organize this tomorrow.)

First, I talk about 4-Fa but this really applies to any stimulant. I've wasted a lot of time in 3-5 day long PV binges and 4-FMA binges. I lost a lot of sleep, and a lower quality of the sleep I did get, along with a hazy memory of those periods. I'm not advocating you stop all drug use. Taking a drug as it would be prescribed will help your brain adjust to a routine and return to optimal (or better) operation.

I've been taking 3-fa and 4-fa lightly over the past 2 months. Nothing spectacular to report. I didn't binge or abuse them much. Prior to this though, I abused 4-FA heavily. Daily use for months. I did eat and sleep often, but otherwise I was constantly redosing. It wasn't euphoric, but it was an obvious catalyst in any situation. When I stop and I'm completely out of withdrawal (which isn't too bad with Fa), I feel normal, somewhat optimistic, etc. My concentration gradually improves, etc. The drug feels nontoxic. But I feel like I never reach my potential without stimulants. I become depressed and my mind decays until the stimulants become a valuable tool. I don't know if the depression is caused by FA. I've always had depression, but there's an anger deep down that I "need" drugs to feel normal. This injustice in brain chemistry drives me to take a stim to clear out the backlog.

Before starting my stim usage again after a 1-2 month hiatus, I stuck to meds and weed here and there and I felt great. Not perfect, but my mood was stable. My schedule became routine, etc. I did find it hard to concentrate but that was due more to anxiety than ADD/depression. Benzos helped when needed. I don't know if the anxiety is related to FA. I've always had it but I don't believe you can comprehend or remember subjective feelings that are now diminished. A depressed person will have a very bleak future, while the same person healthy will not be able to understand how his depressed version could ever have lost hope.

We could be much sharper, calmer and learn faster if we haven't used any stimulant in our lives. I sometimes feel that we may really feel the same as we did before taking the drug, but is that a good thing? Maybe there was a lot of maturation during that period that we missed out on, and so we should actually be feeling much better than we did before. I feel like chronic use prunes learning, or at least make it difficult to hold a long chain of high level concepts in your head. My imagination feels flawless on stims, but it quickly gets too fuzzy and simple to allow me to advance at something at my usual pace.

There might not be direct damage to the brain, but the time wasted on stim binges can be devastating enough to really make you fall behind. Benzos also. The memory loss from stimulants and downers, the anxiety and shallow breathing, and that they decrease sleep quality, are pretty bad. I am only seeing this now in hindsight. I would benefit from a very long hiatus from any drug minus tobacco and a trip here and there. This would bring me back to baseline and put me in sync with where my spiritual and psychological maturity missed out on. I suppose stimulant abuse is in itself a hiatus, but one that is taxing if done too often.

At some point, I lost the reason I did stims. The euphoria makes it hard to focus on any one thing. I feel fine. I can work, I can code well, I'm in a great relationship, I can do this and that, but I realize I could have been much better at ALL this if I used the stims JUST on my self development and in moderation. This lost time would have given me insight into these other areas of my life and this builds a good foundation of new sensory information that is increasingly richer and deeper. It allows more realistic and feasible ideas which integrate well with reality. If the stim's effects were permanent, you probably *can* rule the world. This is a delusion because it doesn't take into account that when the drug wears off, you'll be lazy and disinterested like any normal person.

If we come to find out that 4-Fa (or any potent stimulant) is neither neurotoxic nor cardiotoxic, the less obvious harms may be the little things you didn't realize you missed. The key is to have a routine so that your mood is not constantly in flux.
 
the issue is that amphetamines are *not* benign. whether you want to do the Paul Erdos thing where you are only ever happy and productive when you have amp in you, and are miserable all the rest of the time, is up to you.

the general consensus is this.
1. amphetamines don't actually increase cognitive performance in healthy, well rested individuals. (see pubmed). they do however reduce the impact that sleep deprivation has.
2. amphetamine use in the long term is Not A Good Thing, esp. at higher doses.
3. being psychologically dependent on amphetamines is psychologically unhealthy.

dont be fooled into thinking amps will make you a superhuman. they don't.

this is more suited for od than add
 
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^yeah exactly

we know they aren't benign but there is some debate whether they cause any real damage when used therapeutically. If you are treating yourself for ADD or ADHD or just want an edge in school or work then small doses, even over a long period of time should be fine. If you are binging and abusing amphetamines; you're going to cause some harm regardless of the amphetamine in particular.

if you feel euphoria, you either have no tolerance or are taking too high of a dose. I take 20-40mg of d-amp/day and don't get euphoria but it dramatically increases my ability to learn, remember and focus, to such a degree it's like a performance enhancing drug for me. I've never binged on d-amp either, if you need these drugs for something like productivity or focus then do not abuse them. Same goes for benzos and opiates in treating pain. Never abuse your medications.

anxiety has a definite correlation with not being able to focus, and some patients find stimulants to calm their anxiety, like I do. It's a paradoxical reaction, hell i can fall asleep no problem on d-amp or MPH.
 
the issue is that amphetamines are *not* benign. whether you want to do the Paul Erdos thing where you are only ever happy and productive when you have amp in you, and are miserable all the rest of the time, is up to you.

the general consensus is this.
1. amphetamines don't actually increase cognitive performance in healthy, well rested individuals. (see pubmed). they do however reduce the impact that sleep deprivation has.
2. amphetamine use in the long term is Not A Good Thing, esp. at higher doses.
3. being psychologically dependent on amphetamines is psychologically unhealthy.

dont be fooled into thinking amps will make you a superhuman. they don't.

this is more suited for od than add

regarding 1. on your list; is there sufficient evidence to make this conclusion? (in your opinion, i dont have time to go through the studies and some go over my head). I've experienced significant enhancement of my cognitive functions while taking dexedrine, the evidence is in my marks at school, vastly improved since. Is this true of people who have actual ADD/ADHD? i also take etizolam though which probably causes some cognitive deficits, perhaps the d-amp is just balancing it out but i could never focus properly without it, even before benzos/etizolam. I'll ask my psychiatrist about this but he fucking loves stimulants so he'll probably give me a biased answer lol.

I am healthy and well rested too.
 
i think it's much more complicated than that, RobotRipping.

it usually does increase cognitive performance but also sometimes has a negative impact as well.

it depends on what we're looking at or calling 'cognitive performance' anyway... and for how long.

personally, i find it beneficial to use amphetamines sparingly. i'd say the norm last year was: take once or twice a month and go for 48 hours to cram.
it's usually worked for me but i'm starting to think it's best just NOT to take them at all.
 
There is another thread on 4-FA implying that potentially it may be somewhat more dangerous than you seem to have assumed.
Halogenated amphetamines.... possibly very bad.
4 - chloro-amphetamine (very structurally similar) i believe is used in high doses to destroy mono-amine receptors - although that is in exceptionally high dosages... I'd do some research on halogenated amphetamines before assuming that they are non-toxic
 
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/102
Thus, the use of prescription and illicit drugs could be a coping strategy to manage poor working conditions. However, (psycho-) stimulants (amphetamines (AMPH), methamphetamine, methylphenidate (MPH)), modafinil as well as antidementives and antidepressants have no consistent effects for [cognitive enhancement] or [mental enhancement] in healthy non sleep-deprived subjects [12-20].

Only psychostimulants and modafinil show significant effects on concentration, attentiveness, and vigilance in healthy subjects. However, a general use by healthy persons can not be justified because of relevant side effects and safety risks. Caffeine for pharmacological neuroenhancement can be seen as an equally effective alternative.

For methylphenidate an improvement of memory was found, but no consistent evidence for other enhancing effects was uncovered. Modafinil on the other hand, was found to improve attention for well-rested individuals, while maintaining wakefulness, memory and executive functions to a significantly higher degree in sleep deprived individuals than did a placebo. However, repeated doses of modafinil were unable to prevent deterioration of cognitive performance over a longer period of sleep deprivation though maintaining wakefulness and possibly even inducing overconfidence in a person's own cognitive performance.

The group treated with modafinil (200 mg) was significantly faster in a simple colour naming of dots and also significantly better in a test of constructional ability (Clock Drawing Test) compared with the placebo group. However, subjects in the 200-mg group also made significantly more total errors in the Intra/Extradimensional Set Shift (ID/ED) task than both the other groups. Thus, this study found limited evidence of cognitive-enhancing properties of modafinil in healthy middle-aged volunteers.

Psychostimulants such as mixed amphetamine salts (MAS, brand name Adderall) are widely used for cognitive enhancement by healthy young people, yet laboratory research on effectiveness has yielded variable results. The present study assessed the effects of MAS in healthy young adults with an adequately powered double-blind cross-over placebo-controlled trial. We examined effects in 13 measures of cognitive ability including episodic memory, working memory, inhibitory control, convergent creativity, intelligence and scholastic achievement, with the goals of determining (1) whether the drug is at least moderately enhancing (Cohen's d >= .5) to some or all cognitive abilities tested, (2) whether its effects on cognition are moderated by baseline ability or COMT genotype, and (3) whether it induces an illusory perception of cognitive enhancement. The results did not reveal enhancement of any cognitive abilities by MAS for participants in general.

Admittedly much of the research is with the less-potent modafinil, but even then there is no real evidence that it increases cognitive performance in the average person.
 
There is another thread on 4-FA implying that potentially it may be somewhat more dangerous than you seem to have assumed.
Halogenated amphetamines.... possibly very bad.
4 - chloro-amphetamine (very structurally similar) i believe is used in high doses to destroy mono-amine receptors - although that is in exceptionally high dosages... I'd do some research on halogenated amphetamines before assuming that they are non-toxic

assuming compounds are dangerous because they lie in the same period (halogens) is flawed. ex: arsenic is in the same period as nitrogen...

fluorine is different than any other element because of its size, in fact its more similar (biologically) to a hydrogen than anything else
 
4fa is only benign in the sense of being confirmed as not exerting mdma-like neurotoxicity (let alone para-chloro-amp like neurotoxicity), but I don't see why it would be more benign than other stimulants.

ebola
 
Assuming you don't feel good after stopping usage, that's why you shouldn't use them - benign or not aside.

You deserve to aim for a state of optimal happiness; drugs that reduce your happiness after you come off them are not worth using IMO. They just create a void in you that you feel the continual need to fill.
 
of course they aren't benign. We will find out just how neurotoxic 4-Fa is eventually. That's not my point.

I failed to mention that this question doesn't apply to 'healthy well rested individuals' or anyone in particular. but the question is not whether the drugs are benign or not. I said let's assume so. Would there be other things to worry about, such as what I stated in the original post?

I am not dependent on any drug except Tobacco (1 gram a day) and I don't plan on abusing stimulants. IF the drug was benign, would there be "no problem" in abusing it? It's a hypothetical question. If it helps, let's replace "4-fa" with "sending electrical impulses to the brain to affect the brain in the same way as Fa but in a more direct manner so as to avoid side effects and a natural tolerance build-up." The question still applies.

I posted it in ADD because the question was for those who have been through stimulant abuse and are healthy now. or those who have chosen to stop taking a drug that may be 'benign' (weed? coffee?) for reasons other than fear of neurological damage.
 
It seems to me that the RC field is just not safe to dabble in. I've had a great interest in the RC compounds but I just can't get over the safety profile of them. It seems that many of the labs are doing "minor" structure changes when something hits a schedule listing and just keep pumping out compounds which appear more and more dubious. Does anyone know of any RC's which combined with proper dosages have a better margin of safety?
 
of course they aren't benign. We will find out just how neurotoxic 4-Fa is eventually. That's not my point.

I failed to mention that this question doesn't apply to 'healthy well rested individuals' or anyone in particular. but the question is not whether the drugs are benign or not. I said let's assume so. Would there be other things to worry about, such as what I stated in the original post?

I am not dependent on any drug except Tobacco (1 gram a day) and I don't plan on abusing stimulants. IF the drug was benign, would there be "no problem" in abusing it? It's a hypothetical question. If it helps, let's replace "4-fa" with "sending electrical impulses to the brain to affect the brain in the same way as Fa but in a more direct manner so as to avoid side effects and a natural tolerance build-up." The question still applies.

I posted it in ADD because the question was for those who have been through stimulant abuse and are healthy now. or those who have chosen to stop taking a drug that may be 'benign' (weed? coffee?) for reasons other than fear of neurological damage.

i just don't get what you're asking
 
It seems to me that the RC field is just not safe to dabble in. I've had a great interest in the RC compounds but I just can't get over the safety profile of them. It seems that many of the labs are doing "minor" structure changes when something hits a schedule listing and just keep pumping out compounds which appear more and more dubious. Does anyone know of any RC's which combined with proper dosages have a better margin of safety?
Anecdotally a very large number of them are safe used in the proper dose. However people still do cocaine and drop dead after the first time, have random seizures from tramadol and other stimulants, have all sorts of random problems with prescription meds. So of course you're gonna have some random weird things happening to people with these chemicals, you'll also have this happening with any other drugs.

If the RC field isn't safe to dabble in, I would advise you stick to cannabis and caffeine because I doubt any drug will be safe by your standards.

Oh and btw mine and your posts are spam.


To the above poster: He's not asking a question, he's making a big post. Don't try to be a smart ass, he doesn't even contradict himself. Just take the first sentence as being "Of course it's not 100% benign" and you'll get what I mean.


To the guy talking about 4-chloro-amphetamine, this thread is about 4-fluoro-amphetamine. I obviously got that you were comparing them, but still.

For speculation, I wonder how neurotoxic 4-difluoromethyl-amphetamine, 4-trifluoromethyl-amphetamine are.
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm aware of the freak accidents that can happen with Tramadol and cocaine. I'm not sure I really agree that "any other drug" has the same lack of human consumption and history that all the new RC's come with by nature. I wouldn't say it's spam as he's asking about RC stimulant abuse and I didn't just post a bunch of gibberish.
 
You deserve to aim for a state of optimal happiness; drugs that reduce your happiness after you come off them are not worth using IMO. They just create a void in you that you feel the continual need to fill.

this is the crux of most drugs, and if this never happened there would be no reason to be sober...ostensibly.
 
that's only an issue if you do come off of them. i'll likely be on d-amp or MPH for many many years.

thanks sekio for posting some info for me. The last blurb is of the most interest to me, i wouldn't expect modafinil to do shit anyway but d-amp and adderall or even methamphetamine i'd think are a different story. When they mean healthy subjects, do they mean these subjects have no learning disabilities (ADD/ADHD in particular)? I suppose i should research this myself, still it doesn't seem conclusive. My psychiatrist is an expert in treating add/adhd but i dont want to appeal to authority either, but for him, he thinks stimulants (not modafinil tho) drastically improve a person's life, not a normal healthy person but someone with a learning disorder like add/adhd. Not just cognitively but in many other aspects as well.

Sorry OP for derailing a bit. I think your question is interesting nonetheless, hopefully someone with knowledge of such things can provide a hypothetical answer.
 
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