ARTICLE: 'Ending the war on all drugs'

[fairnymph]

Ethylphenidate appears to be more like cocaine if smoked. If snorted it's onset is slower than cocaine so doesn't fully substitue.

But I think it's generally the case that freebase cocaine is the form most associated with problem use.

There are several other compounds that mimic freebase cocaine. Along with ethylphenidate, amfonelic acid works (but complex synthesis), The para-chloro homologue of dimethocaine and even cofenciclan (which if you use ChemOffice you will see overlays that dimethocaine homologue PERFECTLY.

But as previously mentioned - anyone offering a cheap synthetic alternative to cocaine would not have a gread life-expectancy. Now if the South American cartels produced them... they could mix with cocaine (active cut) and thus bring doen production costs. I'm BETTING it will happen.

Might be better than cocaine cut to hell with levimasole! That stuff burns like crazy and really hurts the lungs. Based on drug testing there is cocaine without it but I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

 

[4DQSAR]

I wouldn't know - I find cocaine dysphoric.

 

[fairnymph]

I wouldn't know - I find cocaine dysphoric.

Interesting. Have you tried all ROAs? What about methylphenidate? Other stims?

 

[4DQSAR]

I lie. I was given some cocaine and put into a bottle of cola. That was OK. A mild stimulant that was smoother than caffeine.

But as a general rule, I'm no fan of stimulants and I have tried maybe 30 different once. Anxiety is all they give me.

I can be anxious without chemicals.

 

[unodelacosa]

I, too, find cocaine to be mildly dysphoric, anxiogenic, and uncomfortable without another substance to take the edge off, like a GABA-ergic such as G, ethanol, or a benzodiazepine. I'd much rather use an amphetamine like meth or dex, or a phenmetrazine, or even a cathinone or pyrovalerone-family compound. And yes, I find crystal meth to be a smoother drug than cocaine hydrochloride. The reputation it has for being this instant-psychosis-state-inducing drug is unfounded, and adverse reactions like this are somewhat rare. If used reasonably and responsibly in low doses with harm reduction techniques, it's a unique stimulant with some amazing properties that can greatly enhance many experiences in life. Obviously, this is not universally true for everyone. YMMV.

 

[4DQSAR]

Anything that purely increases extracellular domamine I find dyspnoric.

But more generally, I just don't get on with stimulants because the crash is just too severe.

A single 5mg dexedrine, maybe, but maybe not. But if one is anxious all the time, you don't want to make it worse.

 

[unodelacosa]

Anything that purely increases extracellular domamine I find dyspnoric.

Few compounds only affect dopamine. They usually also affect epinephrine and norepinephrine—adrenaline in other words—and I would be willing to wager this is what leads to your anxiety.

But more generally, I just don't get on with stimulants because the crash is just too severe.

Have you ever tried taking something to abate the post-stimulant crash?

A single 5mg dexedrine, maybe, but maybe not. But if one is anxious all the time, you don't want to make it worse.

Clearly. Do you ever take MDMA and if so, does it too make you anxious?

 

[4DQSAR]

Well cocaine is a pretty slective dopamine releaer and provides the CLEANEST anhedoina.

Most other stimulants affect the extracellular levels of other monoamines but the dysphoris appears directly related to the dopmagenic activity.

 

[unodelacosa]

Well cocaine is a pretty slective dopamine releaer

Actually it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor as well as an inhibitor of norepinephrine- and serotonin-reuptake.

provides the CLEANEST anhedoina.

Anhedonia is the inability to derive pleasure from typically pleasurable activity. What do you mean by "cleanest anhedonia"?

Reuptake inhibitors block the transporters that normally remove dopamine (and other neurotransmitters) from the synaptic cleft. This allows dopamine to linger longer and have a greater effect on the receptors. It plays a significant role in the brain's reward and motivation system. It is generally associated with positive mood and feelings of well-being.

Your understanding is a common misconception. Inhibiting dopamine reuptake, which effectively increases dopamine levels in the synapse, is generally associated with reducing anxiety, not causing it. And anxiety disorders are complex and involve multiple neurotransmitter systems. Low levels of serotonin and GABA are more commonly implicated in anxiety, while the relationship with dopamine is more nuanced. In some specific brain circuits, increased dopamine could contribute to certain aspects of anxiety (like hypervigilance), but the overall effect of increasing dopamine through reuptake inhibition is not typically anxiogenic.

It's much more likely that a substance that decreases dopamine activity would be associated with anxiety-like symptoms (e.g., some antipsychotics). Increasing dopamine through reuptake inhibition is generally not considered to be a cause of anxiety and, in many cases, can have the opposite effect.

 

[Rectify]

All Drugs Could Be Legalized And Sold Over The Counter Like Nutritional Supplements At Pharmacies And Grocery Stores. Drug Use Would Increase, But Not By Much. Drug Cartels Could Then Go Into The Recreational Drug Supplement Business Or Leave The Drug Business Entirely Or Continue To Sell And Import Illegal Drugs, But Their Supernormal Profit Margin Would Be Decimated In That Last Scenario. Drug Prices Will Plummet, Saving Addicts Hundreds And Hundreds Of Dollars. Of Course, No One Likes To Admit Defeat, But Honestly, Even Hard Drugs Are Less Debilitating Than Alcohol, Which Is Legal. Drug Use Is Just Not The Big Deal People Try To Make It Into. Also, It Is Perfectly Normal, And If We Are All Going To Die Anyway In Say The Next 40 Or 50 Years, Then We Might As Well Die Happy. Also, The Prison Population Would Fall Dramatically.

 

[unodelacosa]

All Drugs Could Be Legalized And Sold Over The Counter Like Nutritional Supplements At Pharmacies And Grocery Stores. Drug Use Would Increase, But Not By Much. Drug Cartels Could Then Go Into The Recreational Drug Supplement Business Or Leave The Drug Business Entirely Or Continue To Sell And Import Illegal Drugs, But Their Supernormal Profit Margin Would Be Decimated In That Last Scenario. Drug Prices Will Plummet, Saving Addicts Hundreds And Hundreds Of Dollars. Of Course, No One Likes To Admit Defeat, But Honestly, Even Hard Drugs Are Less Debilitating Than Alcohol, Which Is Legal. Drug Use Is Just Not The Big Deal People Try To Make It Into. Also, It Is Perfectly Normal, And If We Are All Going To Die Anyway In Say The Next 40 Or 50 Years, Then We Might As Well Die Happy. Also, The Prison Population Would Fall Dramatically.

Amen. Preach, brother, preach! This is the truth.

Also, the way you Title Case your sentences makes me want to make your comment the title of my next album…

 

[Rectify]

Thank You!

 

[4DQSAR]

Anhedonia is the inability to derive pleasure from typically pleasurable activity. What do you mean by "cleanest anhedonia"?

I mean that cocaine has the capacity to prevent me feeling any positive emotions whatsoever.

It rapidly produces a powerful dysphoric from which there is no escape. It's been DECADES since I last touched cocaine but I ended up snorting a line and giving the rest of it away, so much did I dislike the stuff.

Some people are just made that way. Dopamine doesn't produce euphoria, quite the reverse.

Other compounds that release dopamine I also find unpleasent almost as a direct function of their dopamagenic activity. MDA is OKish, MDMA less so. Amphetamine not great, methamphetamine very bad.

That doesn't mean I'm not curious to know if any of the synthetic dopamine releasers are less unpleasent. Clofenciclan is criminally overlooked in my opinion. Amfonelic acid and it's relatives just sound a bit too long lasting to discover they put you in a terrible headspace.

 

[unodelacosa]

Dopamine doesn't produce euphoria, quite the reverse.

The professional, medical, conventional neuroscience on the matter seems to point the other way. Cocaine also makes me feel nervous and riddled with anxiety in addition to an odd euphoric note in the background I would be remiss not to mention. To me, the bad far outweighs the good, never mind the exorbitant price and short duration. In my mind and understanding, this is attributable to norepinephrine more so that dopamine. But it's okay if you disagree. I also openly admit that we are all different, us humans, in terms of enzymologies and DNA, and it's entirely possible you don't process cocaine the way the majority of other people do, differently even from the way I metabolize cocaine, which I also hold to be an outlier. But the fact still remains that for most people, this is not their response, and I believe that you're mistaking what, to me, is an adrenergic response with that of a dopaminergic response.

Considering that dopamine is 3,4-Dihydroxyphenethylamine and adrenaline is 3,4,β-Trihydroxy-N-methylphenethylamine aka, β-hydroxy-dopamine, it stands to reason that few drugs will only affect dopamine but not adrenaline and vice versa, but it does happen. So, maybe I'm wrong, but in my best conjecture, I would say it's your adrenergic response to cocaine that causes the discomfort, not dopamine.

It's also worth noting that there are multiple kinds of drug-induced euphoria, some more appealing to certain enzymologies and body types than others. For example, there's opioid euphoria (from e.g.: morphine, Heroin, oxy, fent), GABA-based euphoria (includes ethyl alcohol, benzodiazepines, and GHB/GBL), psychedelic euphoria (LSD, 2C-B, aMT, 5-MeO-MiPT), dissociation euphoria (K, MXE, PCP), empathogen euphoria (MDMA/MDA, benzofury-class amphetamines, 4-FA, methylone), and stimulant euphoria (amp, meth, α-PVP, 4-MMC, &c.). Sometimes there is some overlap, and sometimes there's a very fine line between pleasure and pain. And like I always say: not every drug is for everybody.

Clofenciclan is criminally overlooked in my opinion.

It's interesting to me that clofenciclan is an arylcyclohexylamine. I'm not sure it's but so euphoric. I think there's a correlation between stims that affect serotonin and stimulant/empathogenic euphoria. Just a pet theory of mine, anyway.

What more can you tell me regarding clofenciclan? I'd like to learn more.

 

[unodelacosa]

Ethylphenidate appears to be more like cocaine if smoked.

Smoking ethylphenidate isn't an enjoyable affair in and of itself, never mind the qualitative effects.

But I think it's generally the case that freebase cocaine is the form most associated with problem use.

It's the same high, but the nasal mucosa has limits. The lungs have a higher capacity for abuse, and inhalation of a drug hits fast (e.g.: DMT). Coke can still be abused via other RoAs including IV and intranasal.

There are several other compounds that mimic freebase cocaine.

Be that as it may, just bc a drug "mimics" another doesn't mean it's identical or that it's worth a shit. See, e.g.: the majority of the pyrovalerone- and cathinone-class stims. A few are not w/o their own charms, but just as many, if not more, are awful skin-crawly compounds that barely vaporize before polymerizing, and they taste like bleach gnomes are cumming down your throat while the shadow people watch and jerk-off like the discourteous bastards they tend to be

But as previously mentioned - anyone offering a cheap synthetic alternative to cocaine would not have a gread life-expectancy.

Yeah but prolly bc the untested stimulant they're using/pushing causes heart failure; nothing to do with any transnational criminal organizations, lol.

But for reals, cheap alternatives like α-PVP have already been brought to market (nothing against flakka, which indeed has its own charms). For fans of cocaine, nothing compares fully. Cocaine is a unique compound.

Now if the South American cartels produced them... they could mix with cocaine (active cut) and thus bring doen production costs.

Yeah at the expense of reputation + sales. You underestimate how much ppl can tell when it's not real coke. No, cocaine is dangerous and cardiotoxic enough as is. No need adding more unwanted cuts that will cause another route of tachycardia. Due to the cartels' being in competition and the drug's recent wider acceptance by society since the days of New Jack City, demand for it is up and w/the competition of Columbian-bourne cocaine now in the market (in addition to Peruvian, Bolivian + Panamanian cocaine), quality is higher than it was in the past. Dealers distinguish themselves through customer service more and more as a result. If other stimulants are to be sold, fine, see if the market opens up to it naturally, but let's not dose people, without their consent, with strange new drugs or encourage this practice. As history has pointed out, this is dangerous and bad for business for all involved.

I'm BETTING it will happen.

I'm betting it won't. And anyways, this is a very bad idea led to by the path of reckless greed. Cocaine synthesis is notoriously low yielding right now, so we'd either need a breakthrough in synthetic routes to cocaine, or a breakthrough in large-scale production of coca outside of South America to afford the level of change needed to shake this game up given the unwavering global demand of high-quality cocaine.

 

[Flynnal]

In this day and age of legal abortion (which has unfortunately recently changed back to a pro-life stance, especially in the USA), I find it rather disturbing that people are tolerating this crap. That said, I'd never encourage aggression or violence to resolve this problem. The best way is to organise large public groups and protest like crazy until the government listens.

Unfortunately there is just so much fucking MONEY involved in this bullshit that I'm not sure if the tools we have as the public at our disposal is going to be enough to change this bullshit. They can do whatever they want because WE THE PEOPLE FUCKING ALLOW THEM TO.

WE NEED TO TELL THEM NO. AND WE NEED TO DO THAT IN A WAY THAT THEY HAVE LITTLE CHOICE BUT TO COMPREHEND AND UNDERSTAND.

 

[4DQSAR]

The professional, medical, conventional neuroscience on the matter seems to point the other way.

Dopamine is a neurotransimtter. How brain cells react to the signal is unique to each individual. The VMAT2 transport is vital in addressing where in the brain dopamine is concentrated.

 

[Rectify]

Dopamine Action Is Qualitatively Indestinguishable From nor-Adrenaline Agonism.

Likewise, Methamphetamine Is Hard To Tell Apart From bk-MeO-MA.

DA Is To nor-Adrenaline As Methamphetamine Is To bk-MeO-MA. Both The Former Pair And The Latter Pair Feel More Like Each Other Than Not.

 

[Nas47]

decriminalizing plain mj and plain kratom leaf is good idea....also growing limited number of any kind of herb for personal consumption....and that is....all other stuff must be strictly regulated or restricted imo......that's not about my personal wish,but what could be good for society.....and our society is not west society////if u allow guns here-people would immidiately start shooting even for a nothing....if u allow them buy and use drugs freely they will do it more and more till all died....fuck i wanna even alcohol to be illegal....those things with legalisation may be work with more civilized societies,but not here

 

[4DQSAR]

It does seem stupid to brand people criminals if they are clearly growing a plant for their own consumption. To me, the definition of a crime must include there being a victim.

But the current US administration is clearly set on wiping out ALL opioid consumption. There are about a dozen executive orders designed to stop the production of synthetics. There is nothing inherently bad about an opiod being synthetic BUT Grisham's law means that like it or not, a producer MUST go for the most profitable target or someone else can simply beat them on price.

Things like U-47700 were at least well understood. The potency and duration were both well established and it was much more like morphine than anything else. But the sad truth is that fentanyl class and the nitazene class are just much cheaper.

What gets me is that there are so many other classes but so far, we have at least seen compounds that had undergone human trials. But I'm sure the makers won't be troubled if switching to something untested makes them more money.