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Are the profound, life-changing experiences people claim from psychedelics overblown?

Sound like good meth!8o

But seriously that is a good/unique vision but you should consider that life is only be a serious of best fit measures to bridge the gap between your vision and the imperfect world we inhabit.

I hope you live to see some of your measures implemented if the majority agree.
 
Not necessarily a true psychedelic, MDMA has definitely had lasting effects on my life and mind.

And holy shit ^^^ Didn't even read it but shit yeah that sounds like good fucking meth.
 
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I get turned off more & more being around (my or friends) material possessions when full on w/ psilocybin, mescaline, (minus maybe musical instruments) to the point where I have to be out in the middle of a forest/mountains for the whole time.
Even the thought of being stuck between four walls makes the experience allot less enlightening.

#60...
That "meth" musta' had some good LSD mixed into it...
 
OP: just take some good ole LSD!


i am probably biased, i dosed for the first time when i was sixteen. i think there definitely is some truth when people tell you not to start tripping too young. i was definitely still very young and my mind was not done growing and understanding. i feel like my experienced may have been exaggerated due to that fact. after that trip, it was a night and day difference in my life. i cannot really fathom thinking the way i did before it. it totally dissolved and reshaped the way i view and think about the world.

in terms of different psychedelics having this effect in different proportions, id say its definitely true with certain substances. blotter that i have taken that afterwards was assumed to be 25i were some of the most skin-deep, social trips i have had, very little "mindfuck". on the other hand if i take 2+ hits of tried and true LSD i can feel it in my soul for a good bit after. afterwards i can feel an inner silence and peace in my mind, as if the volume backround noise of the sub-conscious running commentary in the back of my head has been muted.

mushrooms do this as well, but for some reason, while my mushroom trips can be very surreal and mystical, they never quite get as deep as the acid trips do. maybe it has something to do with dosage, as the amount of time you spend "there" isnt quite as long as acid. most psychedelics fall into a similar category in my experience, including DMT. DMT is mind-shattering, but i have always felt 100% normal about fifteen minutes after, as if nothing had happened.

a lot of people seem to consider 2C-B "psychedelic confetti" or something similar. i was discussing this the other day and i seem to consider 2C-B not a typical psychedelic, i think its more of a "empathogen". the empathy on something like MDMA can sometimes feel forced after a bit of experience but i always feel really clear, true empathy and connection with people on 2C-B. i am definitely guilty of using ecstasy as a party drug so maybe that has something to do with it, but either way i consider these drugs to be a different tool with a different use.
 
It's eerie looking back. Even just an hour before the trip, and even in my wildest of dreams I could not have imagined that I would have ever have overcome this obstacle that seemed gargantuan to me and impossible to get past.. but all it took was 50 milligrams of freebase aMT and 16 hours in my best friend's living room and the mountain became a molehill.


the same dose of the same drug showed me that i had been neglecting my friends, and that my pride was isolating me and preventing me from accepting the help and support i had taken for granted....i was also in my best friend's flat, nearly burnt the place down but thats another story


also sorry for being a twat on this thread the other day, i was pissed, should've known better
 
I have had profound life changing experiences on mushrooms and DMT....


I wasn't sure if I believed in God. . . now I know there is many Gods.... but its different than I origially thought.


Life is supposed to be whatever you make it.. plain and simple. its not super important or a test or anything... were here because we wanna be, and now we need to make the best of it, or do nothing . . its totally up to you.
 
Hmm well sometimes people write about supposed '++++' experiences (++++ would mean life-changing and transformative) but they don't sound in any way like they have changed recently, rather casual instead. I am tempted not to believe those accounts and substitute 'strong +++' which is also something to be excited about but without the lasting insight.

Personally I have had a lot of +++ and stronger trips, and some of them are exceptional in the sense that I had a NDE / rebirth experience for example, but they don't necessarily have to change me. A whole number of trips were transformative in a small way, if only to reconnect with some deeper part of myself that I easily tend to forget and ignore when things get very difficult and being very mindful about it just seems too painful. In that sense, tripping once every 3 months can often feel transformative: I can let go of the shit that stacked up emotionally and start off again from a more mindful position, relieved, but that hardly changes anything about my situation. If all other things stay the same, I am bound to end up again in an ignorant place. Well then, have I really changed to begin with?
The answer depends on what constitutes the change for you... therapeutic effects will have been beneficial to my state - in that sense I am changed. But deeply, my motivations, convictions, my mission in life - to uproot those is much more dire.

Therefore I think that there is a gradual range from 'profound feelings that turn out to be superficial temporary phenomenology' to 'real but temporary catharsis' to more and more deeply stirring matters.

The more real and changing experiences are, the higher I consider the potential for trauma to be as well. There are advancements in our spiritual awareness we are not ready for on a level of emotion and maturity, I experienced that myself. After every of the few ++++ trips, I came out a changed person, I feel like I can never go back to being the person I was before and integration of the experience happens on a scale of years, not days.

Anyway even if I think that immediate responses to intense trips by definition tend to be exaggerated (and the true meaning will have to be proven and clarified chronically), IMO that doesn't mean we should go and underestimate the potential of these experiences.
And if you have hardly any experience at all apart from a few or a single trip(s) that were disappointing in this respect, you don't really have anything to base any conclusions on. Because there are so many psychedelics, and so many set & settings... and it is quite easy to miss the special bullseye with it.... chances are it will just take some time until it is the right time for you.
You talked about expectations and self-suggestion in the OP, well I do think that prepping yourself mentally for special altered states of consciousness often involves some self-suggestion. Expression of intent, ritual, such are artificially guiding practices to prepare yourself. Expecting to be transformed prepares you by believing that this is possible on every level of your psyche, it will clear the way for this actually happening. There is something spontaneous about it (for the same reason meditation could be called a default state), and psychedelics are catalysts. So remove any obstacles - people often call this 'letting yourself go' - and it will happen when it shall.

Ultimately, we cannot judge for others what is overblown or not. To be sympathetic is to believe people on principle how deep or important they say the trip was, especially after the initial reaction. Something doesn't have to be real and tangible to change us, also we cannot witness what others have experienced, therefore we could not possibly say what did or what did not change someone.
Behavior is an indication though: if someone says they changed and became more understanding of and empathic to others, yet they keep on being the same old dick... how serious should we take that. ;)
 
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Hmm well sometimes people write about supposed '++++' experiences (++++ would mean life-changing and transformative) but they don't sound in any way like they have changed recently, rather casual instead. I am tempted not to believe those accounts and substitute 'strong +++' which is also something to be excited about but without the lasting insight.

Personally I have had a lot of +++ and stronger trips, and some of them are exceptional in the sense that I had a NDE / rebirth experience for example, but they don't necessarily have to change me. A whole number of trips were transformative in a small way, if only to reconnect with some deeper part of myself that I easily tend to forget and ignore when things get very difficult and being very mindful about it just seems too painful. In that sense, tripping once every 3 months can often feel transformative: I can let go of the shit that stacked up emotionally and start off again from a more mindful position, relieved, but that hardly changes anything about my situation. If all other things stay the same, I am bound to end up again in an ignorant place. Well then, have I really changed to begin with?
The answer depends on what constitutes the change for you... therapeutic effects will have been beneficial to my state - in that sense I am changed. But deeply, my motivations, convictions, my mission in life - to uproot those is much more dire.

Therefore I think that there is a gradual range from 'profound feelings that turn out to be superficial temporary phenomenology' to 'real but temporary catharsis' to more and more deeply stirring matters.

The more real and changing experiences are, the higher I consider the potential for trauma to be as well. There are advancements in our spiritual awareness we are not ready for on a level of emotion and maturity, I experienced that myself. After every of the few ++++ trips, I came out a changed person, I feel like I can never go back to being the person I was before and integration of the experience happens on a scale of years, not days.

Anyway even if I think that immediate responses to intense trips by definition tend to be exaggerated (and the true meaning will have to be proven and clarified chronically), IMO that doesn't mean we should go and underestimate the potential of these experiences.
And if you have hardly any experience at all apart from a few or a single trip(s) that were disappointing in this respect, you don't really have anything to base any conclusions on. Because there are so many psychedelics, and so many set & settings... and it is quite easy to miss the special bullseye with it.... chances are it will just take some time until it is the right time for you.
You talked about expectations and self-suggestion in the OP, well I do think that prepping yourself mentally for special altered states of consciousness often involves some self-suggestion. Expression of intent, ritual, such are artificially guiding practices to prepare yourself. Expecting to be transformed prepares you by believing that this is possible on every level of your psyche, it will clear the way for this actually happening. There is something spontaneous about it (for the same reason meditation could be called a default state), and psychedelics are catalysts. So remove any obstacles - people often call this 'letting yourself go' - and it will happen when it shall.

Ultimately, we cannot judge for others what is overblown or not. To be sympathetic is to believe people on principle how deep or important they say the trip was, especially after the initial reaction. Something doesn't have to be real and tangible to change us, also we cannot witness what others have experienced, therefore we could not possibly say what did or what did not change someone.
Behavior is an indication though: if someone says they changed and became more understanding of and empathic to others, yet they keep on being the same old dick... how serious should we take that. ;)

Do you think a person's failure to reflect the learnings of their experience to make the experience any less profound or "life changing"? What I mean is just because the person didn't actually change or slipped after a short term change doesn't indicate anything about the experience...only that some people just aren't likely to change no matter what happens or are slow to change. The experience or epiphany was no less profound by their failure. I'd say I've had a good deal of +++ and what I'd consider to be ++++ experiences, but in some instances I've failed to live up to what I've learned from those experiences. I try, but I don't always make it or it's a work in progress. In some ways I've changed dramatically in ways that others can readily see; in others not so much. The experiences still are what they were.
 
Maybe it depends: some kinds of changes can be hard to realize in life IME and others seem unavoidable. My personal development has often been one-sided and I have failed to act on certain knowledge or wisdom about life. So I definitely know about the steep growing curve about some things.
Also generally I don't very much like to be around other people and I think we are all very flawed. Yet there are things about transformative experiences that make me want to be a good person to others. That is probably why I said that I could imagine attitude as a mere indication of sorts.
It could be that I just pride myself on that and have a limited frame of reference and others might have inversed learning curves that allow them to change dramatically in very different ways.

In any case: I believe that if you get such a once-in-a-lifetime trip that is not just profound but literally life changing, then by definition it will change your life in some way. This much psychological turmoil must come out. Maybe much of our lives can be tangled up and hard to change but I am talking about shaking up fundamental parts of yourself. For me that meant an existential crisis and redefining (or, for the first time consciously defining) every salient matter and choice in my life. That was my way to react to that and others may react differently, but I don't see how you could simply remain the same person after that. Just too much has changed.
If you are talking about a person's 'unlikelihood' to change, it just may be that this will define their ability to have a life-altering trip to begin with.

My talking about indications like that is meant as nothing but a possible gauge for the true severity and impact of an experience on a person. That should not let us devalue any of the other strong +++ ego death trips, although I consider the consequences and devastation to be of a different league. By far most of the time I am not looking for that, if every trip was like that I absolutely could not handle it, it is like a total brainwash. I know it might come off as if though I am passing judgement by compartmentalizing, that is not intended.
"Indications" like I propose probably shouldn't be advocated, if at all possible let's not judge books by their covers - sorry I said it.

I do not mean to trivialize super intense trips, whether they are random and chaotic or meaningful. However I know from experience that even completely dissociated OOBE type or rebirth trips for example, can reset a person but not change them. This may or may not have something to do with being more than averagely used to being reset by a psychedelic experience... but I assure you, it does not necessarily change a person. Even if every aspect of the trip's description implies profundity.

Just like I know other people are with their most special and profound experiences, I am inclined to rate it higher than +++ but it was not life-changing. Apparently experiencing ego-death or samadhi is not the same as thoroughly having your goose cooked and I am not saying the latter is a healthy thing. Neither is this about dicksizing and levels of experience that can be 'unlocked' as if in a video game. Maybe we just need an extra designation for it. My point is though: they are 2 different things even though they may seem so much alike. Just like knowing a profound truth and realizing it. Unfortunately although I have come across much profundity and was exposed to wisdom of others, my emotional immaturity seems to catch up with me and at any rate internalizing and realizing like that cannot be forced it seems, and proceeds at the pace of life.
 
I wasn't sure if I believed in God. . . now I know there is many Gods....

You don't "know" that for sure tho motiv, you might suspect it after an experience while you were deranged on psychedelic drugs but that doesn't really count as scientific evidence.
 
...tripping once every 3 months can often feel transformative: I can let go of the shit that stacked up emotionally and start off again from a more mindful position, relieved, but that hardly changes anything about my situation. If all other things stay the same, i am bound to end up again in an ignorant place. Well then, have i really changed to begin with?
The answer depends on what constitutes the change for you... Therapeutic effects will have been beneficial to my state - in that sense i am changed. But deeply, my motivations, convictions, my mission in life - to uproot those is much more dire.
...
Expecting to be transformed prepares you by believing that this is possible on every level of your psyche, it will clear the way for this actually happening.
...
ultimately, we cannot judge for others what is overblown or not. to be sympathetic is to believe people on principle how deep or important they say the trip was, especially after the initial reaction. Something doesn't have to be real and tangible to change us, also we cannot witness what others have experienced, therefore we could not possibly say what did or what did not change someone.

qft.
 
Youre probably getting the same answers repeatedly, but I'm not going to bother reading all of them. These experiences people report from psychedelic drugs aren't overblown. Phenethylamine psychedelics like 25x-NBOMe, 2C-x, DOx, etc (with the obvious exception of Mescaline and possibly a few others) tend to be less mind blowingly spiritual, and more so euphoric, visual, stimulating, party-type psychedelics; especially 25x IMO. Tryptamines and LSD are where the trips get mentally intense and otherworldly, do a high dose of acid and let us know if that speculation of yours is any different.
 
Maybe it depends: some kinds of changes can be hard to realize in life IME and others seem unavoidable. My personal development has often been one-sided and I have failed to act on certain knowledge or wisdom about life. So I definitely know about the steep growing curve about some things.
Also generally I don't very much like to be around other people and I think we are all very flawed. Yet there are things about transformative experiences that make me want to be a good person to others. That is probably why I said that I could imagine attitude as a mere indication of sorts.
It could be that I just pride myself on that and have a limited frame of reference and others might have inversed learning curves that allow them to change dramatically in very different ways.

In any case: I believe that if you get such a once-in-a-lifetime trip that is not just profound but literally life changing, then by definition it will change your life in some way. This much psychological turmoil must come out. Maybe much of our lives can be tangled up and hard to change but I am talking about shaking up fundamental parts of yourself. For me that meant an existential crisis and redefining (or, for the first time consciously defining) every salient matter and choice in my life. That was my way to react to that and others may react differently, but I don't see how you could simply remain the same person after that. Just too much has changed.
If you are talking about a person's 'unlikelihood' to change, it just may be that this will define their ability to have a life-altering trip to begin with.

My talking about indications like that is meant as nothing but a possible gauge for the true severity and impact of an experience on a person. That should not let us devalue any of the other strong +++ ego death trips, although I consider the consequences and devastation to be of a different league. By far most of the time I am not looking for that, if every trip was like that I absolutely could not handle it, it is like a total brainwash. I know it might come off as if though I am passing judgement by compartmentalizing, that is not intended.
"Indications" like I propose probably shouldn't be advocated, if at all possible let's not judge books by their covers - sorry I said it.

I do not mean to trivialize super intense trips, whether they are random and chaotic or meaningful. However I know from experience that even completely dissociated OOBE type or rebirth trips for example, can reset a person but not change them. This may or may not have something to do with being more than averagely used to being reset by a psychedelic experience... but I assure you, it does not necessarily change a person. Even if every aspect of the trip's description implies profundity.

Just like I know other people are with their most special and profound experiences, I am inclined to rate it higher than +++ but it was not life-changing. Apparently experiencing ego-death or samadhi is not the same as thoroughly having your goose cooked and I am not saying the latter is a healthy thing. Neither is this about dicksizing and levels of experience that can be 'unlocked' as if in a video game. Maybe we just need an extra designation for it. My point is though: they are 2 different things even though they may seem so much alike. Just like knowing a profound truth and realizing it. Unfortunately although I have come across much profundity and was exposed to wisdom of others, my emotional immaturity seems to catch up with me and at any rate internalizing and realizing like that cannot be forced it seems, and proceeds at the pace of life.

Yeah, I think I mostly agree with you. I guess the reason I questioned it is mostly personal. It's been some 20 years since my last significant psychedelic episode. I was the sort who would take acid no less than four to five times a week usually no less than five doses for a couple of years. I would consider less than ten hits a light fun trip most of the time. It was more rare to see me sober than not added in with the other drugs I did. Of course LSD isn't addictive, but I was addicted to being in that state. For those years I was basically always on something. When I quit everything I think I had what is now being called HPPD. For the first six months after I quit this effected my ability to function in the real world and sorta' scared my family quite a bit too. I'm also prone to natural hallucinations. There were a few episodes as a child where I'd see things that would rival a good acid trip, but these were rare. I've almost always had what people describe as CEV and even some mild OEV without drugs. At least one incident was more than mild. If it matters for explanatory reasons there is a family history of schizophrenia. Anyhow this is all to give just a little background for my case since noone really knows me here.

Anyhow, of all these hundreds of trips I'd say less than five approached a true ++++ and each of them did change me greatly, but life changes us too of course. I took what I learned and made some real changes, but then later on down the line let life change me in some ways I'd rather I hadn't. As I said earlier though I don't think that makes revelations and experiences or lessons learned from those times any less profound ...they just reflect my very human tendency to fail to live up to ideals. In some ways the lessons learned from those experiences are evident; in some ways they are not. I'd almost welcome one more beautiful traumatic ++++ trip to shake the foundations of my reality of who and how I am. Whether that happens or not I'm not the least bit regretful of those experiences.

I'd also be in favor of a more then four tier scale. I think it's too inadquate to convey it's intent, but it's a start.

I'll quit rambling now. Sorry if I went a bit off topic. It was all to try to express my POV.
 
Again the trouble is that profundity and lessons learned do not necessarily lead to the kind of transformation significant for life change. But nevertheless they remain worthwhile and you can gain so much insight.

I have also had a period tripping weekly or more, and believe that the more often one trips the less time there is to integrate (pretty much logical fact). Integration is a factor IMO in translating insight and wisdom to personal betterment. It is not necessarily that tripping that often will prevent you from changing, more importantly even that tripping that often can prevent you from being shocked deeply. As deep as tripping hard the first time in your life.

In that sense, being unprepared can be a blessing because the impact of a trip can be that much more devastating. And devastation is a good way to really change your ways. I would almost say that if you do not lose something harshly or if you are not damaged, you are not likely to be forced to change yourself spontaneously as a way to never let that happen again. It is almost a way of traumatizing yourself to force a reaction.

Profundity feels special whether you are devastated or not. But it affects you differently depending on the kind of emotional crisis that coincides. My point is not to take any value away from any of you, but to point out that if you remain unharmed by an experience it is less likely you will DO anything about your insights.

It has nothing to do with criticism of non-transformative profundity. Even though the topic question is if any of this is overblown, I do not mean to say that the profundity would be overblown. Just that profundity should not be confused with life change and that profundity does not always imply transformation (not sure how it is the other way around). But it is natural that this would be construed so that it would seem that profundity is nothing without transformation.

For me debate over ++++ status is over because for some people it means total psychedelic dissociation, samadhi, bliss or rapture and for others it means only experiences that literally changed your life. If all your blissful experiences literally changed your life, I congratulate you if that change was for the better. Not being facetious. It is just that for me personally, bliss is possible without the change. Which begs for a differentiation of the ++++ status or an abolition of rating spiritual experiences as if they were a movie.

Thanks for the sensible response - hopefully you see that I do acknowledge your experiences, and that my problem is mostly with miscommunication.
 
Again the trouble is that profundity and lessons learned do not necessarily lead to the kind of transformation significant for life change. But nevertheless they remain worthwhile and you can gain so much insight.

I have also had a period tripping weekly or more, and believe that the more often one trips the less time there is to integrate (pretty much logical fact). Integration is a factor IMO in translating insight and wisdom to personal betterment. It is not necessarily that tripping that often will prevent you from changing, more importantly even that tripping that often can prevent you from being shocked deeply. As deep as tripping hard the first time in your life.

In that sense, being unprepared can be a blessing because the impact of a trip can be that much more devastating. And devastation is a good way to really change your ways. I would almost say that if you do not lose something harshly or if you are not damaged, you are not likely to be forced to change yourself spontaneously as a way to never let that happen again. It is almost a way of traumatizing yourself to force a reaction.

Profundity feels special whether you are devastated or not. But it affects you differently depending on the kind of emotional crisis that coincides. My point is not to take any value away from any of you, but to point out that if you remain unharmed by an experience it is less likely you will DO anything about your insights.

It has nothing to do with criticism of non-transformative profundity. Even though the topic question is if any of this is overblown, I do not mean to say that the profundity would be overblown. Just that profundity should not be confused with life change and that profundity does not always imply transformation (not sure how it is the other way around). But it is natural that this would be construed so that it would seem that profundity is nothing without transformation.

For me debate over ++++ status is over because for some people it means total psychedelic dissociation, samadhi, bliss or rapture and for others it means only experiences that literally changed your life. If all your blissful experiences literally changed your life, I congratulate you if that change was for the better. Not being facetious. It is just that for me personally, bliss is possible without the change. Which begs for a differentiation of the ++++ status or an abolition of rating spiritual experiences as if they were a movie.

Thanks for the sensible response - hopefully you see that I do acknowledge your experiences, and that my problem is mostly with miscommunication.

I think you're absolutely right in most regards there. For me while the Shulgin scale is the best we currently have it's wholly inadequate. The examples you've made illuminate why I said we need more than a four tier system (if a system can be adequate at all). It seems almost absurd to me to rate these things as you said like movies are rated. One might as well use a four tier system to rate sex too. LOL And I'd agree that whatever the highest level is it should be traumatic and life altering. As the system currently is delineated I've had plenty of ++++ experiences. I'd also say there should be more distinctions made amongst the sub ++++ experiences if there is to be a rating system at all. For me while the intention behind it seems good it's a useless endeavor to try to rate at all. Some things cannot be readily compartmentalized.
 
I have also had a period tripping weekly or more, and believe that the more often one trips the less time there is to integrate (pretty much logical fact).

IMO, not really. It's not like one trip "interrupts" the integration of another. One could also argue that, the more you trip, the more insight there is to integrate. Or, integration is easier because you are more often reminded of the changes you wish to make.
 
One could argue that, but there are limits to how much information our brains can process.
 
Part of integration IMO means being sober from psychedelics for a period long enough to take your last psychedelic experience and apply it to life at baseline. TAC, I know that life goes on and time passes on but a trip does interrupt something namely your sobriety, which I find essential to integration.
I'm glad if you are able to trip super regularly and still find the clarity to apply those changes you wish to make but for me it just didn't happen to work that way. To me it feels like integration is delayed, because the initial period after a trip counts as afterglow. While afterglows can be inspirational and I agree that it feels like a direct reminder of what you recently experienced and learned, it simply has nothing to do with your baseline life where the real 'battle' is. Being inspired during an afterglow is much easier because you are not yet dumped back into naggy habits and behavioral patterns. Integration is about returning to those habits at baseline and making changes. How is that possible before first returning to baseline?
 
IMO, not really. It's not like one trip "interrupts" the integration of another. One could also argue that, the more you trip, the more insight there is to integrate. Or, integration is easier because you are more often reminded of the changes you wish to make.

Spoken like a true drug addict.

No offense intended; it takes one to know one after all.
 
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