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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Are meat eaters allowed to judge another persons ethics?
- Thread starter psychedelicsoul
- Start date
Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
Speaking of being intellectually dishonest, aren't you the guy whose ethical theory I tore to shreds not too long ago? Instead of responding to my objections you ran away with your tail in between your legs, and now here you are regurgitating the same empty theory. Talk about intellectual dishonesty!
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
no, I got so fucking bored of trying to get it through your thick skull that I just dropped it. You are completely incapable of realizing the faults in your own theory that you cannot pull your head out of your ass long enough to see a different point of view.
Want me to shit on your theory in two steps?
A women likes being raped. Yes she likes pain and she likes being raped. Your theory imposes a FORCE OF WILL that she cannot enjoy that. Lets take the other side of it then, she is allowed to enjoy these things even though you FUCKING SAY THAT PAIN IS A NEGATIVE FACTOR AND IS NEGATIVE TOWARDS MORALITY. So what is it then? OH ITS SUBJECTIVE. SHES ALLOWED TO HAVE THAT FEEL BECAUSE MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE TOWARDS EACH PERSONS FEELINGS. Well guess what, I feel good from killing people. Oh, but thats not okay right? Because of some magical subjective bullshit you have.
Just because you are incapable of understanding true objective morality doesnt make it false. Beliefs such as yours try to twist the world towards a more positive point of view without realizing that if one part can be subjective then all parts can be. YAWNNNN
TALK ABOUT INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY LOL
Tore to shreds LMFAO. Nah n*** (DO NOT USE SUCH TERMS HERE-willow11), I just fucking bored as shit of you. Its like talking to a brick wall.
Empty theory. Thats fucking laughable. Its the only correct universal theory and you are spewing such gross bullshit that is no fucking wonder that you are incapable of realizing the truth in so many other issues on this forum.
YOU HAVE YET TO FIND A SINGLE POINT THAT DESTROYS INTRINSIC VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE. Not a single fucking one. So keep dreaming kid. If you do, why dont you publish it. Objective morality is the true philosophy so if you find a truth outside of this from your subjective point of view you'll be famed in the philosophy community. Lmfao, Scrubs for days holy shit.
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Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
Also, to twist a biological response thats based on survival (yes dopamine rewards you to keep your bio system capable of surviving) But to say that High Fat High Protein is unhealthy is fucking retarded. Ketosis if you keep acetyl ketones from formulating at too high of a level, would indeed decrease oxygen free radicals by uncoupling the mitochondria and forcing the Electron transport chain to work in a higher drive. But im sure you can figure out basic ketosis by yourself. What interests me is what you are saying. You talk about the dopamine drive (which when abused causes you into an addict, hello, no fucking shit.) But to say that HIGH FAT HIGH PROTEIN (this concept alone) is what is unhealthy makes no sense. As far as your links they are all in regards to foods function on the human brain and body but it barely touches on the actual nutrition portion. Like great, over eating causes you to develop more dopamine sites that are then subjected to craving more and more stimulation (like a heroin addict of sorts).
Once again. So what? If your argument was that lower caloric intake is the key to a healthier and longer life I could do nothing but nod and agree. Also, High Fat High Protein never excludes the intake of vegetables just all carbs.
What are you getting at is my question.
High Fat High Protein has nothing on carb intake for the dopamingeric system. Where are you getting that fact from? People who eat HFHP are more satiable and they dont get craving as easily lol.
On a different note, I like the double speak shit you got going on in your: https://weirdnessconfessions.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/confessions-of-a-weirdness-magnet-part-14/
Very interesting read as well
Once again. So what? If your argument was that lower caloric intake is the key to a healthier and longer life I could do nothing but nod and agree. Also, High Fat High Protein never excludes the intake of vegetables just all carbs.
What are you getting at is my question.
High Fat High Protein has nothing on carb intake for the dopamingeric system. Where are you getting that fact from? People who eat HFHP are more satiable and they dont get craving as easily lol.
On a different note, I like the double speak shit you got going on in your: https://weirdnessconfessions.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/confessions-of-a-weirdness-magnet-part-14/
Very interesting read as well
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drug_mentor
Bluelight Crew
What the fuck are you talking about?
Here is the exchange I am referring to. You are making some bizarre claims which I am finding very difficult to relate to the relevant debate.
It would be better if you responded to me in that thread. Please address the objections I have raised towards your ridiculous ethical view. I will happily address yours if you express them in a manner where the context and the point(s) you are attempting to make are intelligible.
It seems like you have an incredibly facile perception of ethics in which the matter has been conclusively settled. It is particularly odd to me that you take this attitude despite being a proponent of an ethical view which I can't decide whether it is just really obscure or you completely made up.
Here is the exchange I am referring to. You are making some bizarre claims which I am finding very difficult to relate to the relevant debate.
It would be better if you responded to me in that thread. Please address the objections I have raised towards your ridiculous ethical view. I will happily address yours if you express them in a manner where the context and the point(s) you are attempting to make are intelligible.
It seems like you have an incredibly facile perception of ethics in which the matter has been conclusively settled. It is particularly odd to me that you take this attitude despite being a proponent of an ethical view which I can't decide whether it is just really obscure or you completely made up.
Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
I've just come to realize that a lot of things are hard for you to relate to and hence they all of a sudden become wrong LOL.
Hence why you are boring to argue with. Intellectually dishonest to the highest degree. What a beautiful piece of work you are.
Once again, '' Obscure or you made it up'' LOL
Learn to think critically and maybe you'll be able to smell the roses someday.
'' I didnt come to that conclusion so it must be wrong
''Keep your head down, dont do drugs, stay in school, eat your veggies, and look both ways before crossing the road. You'll make it kid.
Your opinions are always so irrelevant that it has seriously become laughable. Formulate a constructive thought or even a thought which has an edge to it and maybe someone would care. At least psychedelic soul's opinions are off the deep end and wrapped in pseudo truth. Whats your point in posting... like ever lol.
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swilow
Bluelight Crew
^Settle down mate. We're just having a discussion. There is really no need to get so worked up.
drug_mentor
Bluelight Crew
HMHTW, you are hilarious. :D
I have responded to you in the appropriate thread.
By the way, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't bother to include your ridiculous rape example in your response to me in the other thread. Was this because you realised it is not a relevant objection or counter example to a single thing I said?
I would love if you could explain your claims about personhood imposing a force of will on a rape victim. I am betting you wont, because it is clearly nonsense.
Please quote the relevant post in the other thread where I made the claim that "pain is a negative factor". You have completely manufactured this. Misrepresenting what your opposition has stated in order to formulate an objection is more or less the definition of being intellectually dishonest.
I have responded to you in the appropriate thread.
By the way, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't bother to include your ridiculous rape example in your response to me in the other thread. Was this because you realised it is not a relevant objection or counter example to a single thing I said?
I would love if you could explain your claims about personhood imposing a force of will on a rape victim. I am betting you wont, because it is clearly nonsense.
Please quote the relevant post in the other thread where I made the claim that "pain is a negative factor". You have completely manufactured this. Misrepresenting what your opposition has stated in order to formulate an objection is more or less the definition of being intellectually dishonest.
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Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
Do you even personhood theory bro.
On a different note, I like the double speak shit you got going on in your: https://weirdnessconfessions.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/confessions-of-a-weirdness-magnet-part-14/
Very interesting read as well
[/QUOTE]I didn't say it was unhealthy, I said it was physically addictive. *Science* says its unhealthy, but that wasn't my point.
See where it says [9-11]? Look at the end and find the other studies about this and read up, if you care - I don't.
People who do an eight-ball of meth every day are more satiated and don't crave - what's your point? The fact that you have to binge on it not to have cravings is evidence of addiction. I'm not addicted to food - I don't crave anything. I never go to the fridge and just want *something* to make me feel better - that's what you think of as hunger, but it's not - it's food craving. Hunger is when your stomach is empty and hurts. You feel nauseated. Hypoglycemia - the signal that you need more sugar. And FYI, all heterotrophs run on glucose. It's the basic fuel for your body. I'm not addicted to food, so I can go a week on fruit juice and be fine - you don't even need fat and protein that often. You probably can't go two days on fruit juice and white rice without going into withdrawal. That's how 99.9% of the first world lives. Addiction drives our society - it's also what makes consumer capitalism, where people buy shit to feel good, work. Have you not read/seen Naked Lunch?
Glad you liked my little piece - didn't know anyone had read it. Anything specific? I wonder if I should continue - I'm locked out of wordpress due to technical difficulties, and haven't bothered.
Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
Well the point you were saying is that they were addicted to the food itself... so craving of food would probably be important in establishing an addiction right? Like the heroin addict craving Heroin or other sorts of pain killers. And HFHP doesn't mean you HAVE to binge on it. You could just restrict yourself to a maintenance level amount of caloric intake. I see what you're saying at [9-11] but High Fat High Protein has been proven to help a variety of mental diseases and lower the risk for future.
Epilepsy, Alzheimers, ADL if started before onset, and a variety of other diseases that escape my mind at the moment.
Also, as far your own source went:
In routine practice a reduced-carbohydrate, higher protein diet may be the most appropriate overall approach to reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes. To achieve similar benefits on a HC diet, it may be necessary to increase fibre-rich wholegrains, legumes, vegetables and fruits, and to reduce saturated fatty acids to a greater extent than appears to be achieved by implementing current guidelines. The HF approach appears successful for weight loss in the short term, but lipid levels should be monitored. The potential deleterious effects of the diet in the long term remain a concern.
To make a personal agenda here I run a High Protein, Semi high Fat intake. Low carbs.
As far as your comment towards glucose. Yes, thats true but ketones could provide the same benefit by self conversion. Although I would not recommend this as acetyl ketones are pretty toxic when built up too heavily. So that's why you supplement a little bit of carbohydrates in.
If you look at basic human progression didn't the cave man diet consist of no carbs at all? Mind you they weren't the brightest after all but they survived nevertheless. I just believe that there is a large difference between processed and packaged bullshit and the more eco route of meat and fats. I mean hell, you could even plausibly run a Vegan HFHP diet if you were to supplement dry beans and cook them and so on and so forth. If we do this method do you still consider the human body to be insufficent of your view of addiction?
You mentioned psychoactive compounds but the main thing to look for prior to using, other than MAO-X is to avoid glucose as they inhibit the ability to... for poetic beauty... visit the Wall at the base of the Mind at Large and the Gate of Heaven and Hell. As far as I am aware the spike in blood sugar during an ingestion of LSD is due to flooding of glucose from the brain into the circulatory system as well as increasing glycolysis. But honestly this part could be false
As far as your quote.. not to like bag on a source from 2005 but there are plenty of other sources from valid colleges that don't seem to be backed by corporations such as the farmers union or other large for profit unions to fund the research of my poison : High Fat High Protein Low Carb.
I have not read Naked Lunch but that sounds unbelievably enticing to read I will have to be a pirate if I cannot find the book here.
As for your piece,
Pros: I particularly enjoy the buddhist element of it to starve yourself of this world. I have never dwelled into the buddhist culture but there's something that largely resonates with me about it. I also like how you established your theory on dopamines role in the universe then a small piece on buddhism AND THEN tied them together.
it also made me happy to see that you talked about the addiction hoping. It was something I had in mind when you talked about dopamine in the beginning. "Well if its not these drugs its just a jerk off or another... oh he talked about it"
Cons: Honestly none, but there was a rather rash last paragraph. It started talking about the stick but then skipped right away to layman terms of saying an enzyme that breaks down MAO, but I would have loved for it to explain it a little more explicit.
Conclusion: Honestly very interested if you have any books or like other articles like that I should read.
Edit: https://theriseandfallofthehumanempire.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/william-s-burroughs-naked-lunch.pdf Found it :D
AS far as the topic of hunger goes... I dunno man. I get weak and slow and sluggish way prior to pain in my stomach. I can go long bouts without eating but once I break my fast there is a craving for more. But to say that hunger is only once you are in pain... I don't agree quite frankly. if you look at it from a physiological PoV you are not able to lift as much, run as far, or extenuate yourself for as long of periods if you are not properly fed for the day(s).
Also, white rice is a bad example
I love rice. A lot. too much actually. it's so delicious and fluffy. If im allowed to add soy sauce or pressed soy beans to it. oh lawd. sign me up.
But sugar, as a form of nourishment is not the holy grail. Calories in Calories out is a pretty simple basic concept. So You are correct and not correct [Call me Confucius lmao] If you are speaking to meet a minimum caloric intake and for the sake of JUST sustaining. No muscle growth, no endurance growth, etc. Then yes that sugar will sustain you to an extent. You could survive. But is surviving the same as living?
Also if you excluded fat, the most vital macronutrient, wouldn't it effect your testosterone, kidney function, immune system etc? I mean look at what would happened to a woman at below 14%. That's insane. Not to mention the lack of micro nutrients attached to a fat source. You would be missing out on a large portion of fat soluble micro nutrients.
Epilepsy, Alzheimers, ADL if started before onset, and a variety of other diseases that escape my mind at the moment.
Also, as far your own source went:
In routine practice a reduced-carbohydrate, higher protein diet may be the most appropriate overall approach to reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes. To achieve similar benefits on a HC diet, it may be necessary to increase fibre-rich wholegrains, legumes, vegetables and fruits, and to reduce saturated fatty acids to a greater extent than appears to be achieved by implementing current guidelines. The HF approach appears successful for weight loss in the short term, but lipid levels should be monitored. The potential deleterious effects of the diet in the long term remain a concern.
To make a personal agenda here I run a High Protein, Semi high Fat intake. Low carbs.
As far as your comment towards glucose. Yes, thats true but ketones could provide the same benefit by self conversion. Although I would not recommend this as acetyl ketones are pretty toxic when built up too heavily. So that's why you supplement a little bit of carbohydrates in.
If you look at basic human progression didn't the cave man diet consist of no carbs at all? Mind you they weren't the brightest after all but they survived nevertheless. I just believe that there is a large difference between processed and packaged bullshit and the more eco route of meat and fats. I mean hell, you could even plausibly run a Vegan HFHP diet if you were to supplement dry beans and cook them and so on and so forth. If we do this method do you still consider the human body to be insufficent of your view of addiction?
You mentioned psychoactive compounds but the main thing to look for prior to using, other than MAO-X is to avoid glucose as they inhibit the ability to... for poetic beauty... visit the Wall at the base of the Mind at Large and the Gate of Heaven and Hell. As far as I am aware the spike in blood sugar during an ingestion of LSD is due to flooding of glucose from the brain into the circulatory system as well as increasing glycolysis. But honestly this part could be false
As far as your quote.. not to like bag on a source from 2005 but there are plenty of other sources from valid colleges that don't seem to be backed by corporations such as the farmers union or other large for profit unions to fund the research of my poison : High Fat High Protein Low Carb.
I have not read Naked Lunch but that sounds unbelievably enticing to read
I will have to be a pirate if I cannot find the book here.As for your piece,
Pros: I particularly enjoy the buddhist element of it to starve yourself of this world. I have never dwelled into the buddhist culture but there's something that largely resonates with me about it. I also like how you established your theory on dopamines role in the universe then a small piece on buddhism AND THEN tied them together.
it also made me happy to see that you talked about the addiction hoping. It was something I had in mind when you talked about dopamine in the beginning. "Well if its not these drugs its just a jerk off or another... oh he talked about it"
Cons: Honestly none, but there was a rather rash last paragraph. It started talking about the stick but then skipped right away to layman terms of saying an enzyme that breaks down MAO, but I would have loved for it to explain it a little more explicit.
Conclusion: Honestly very interested if you have any books or like other articles like that I should read.
Edit: https://theriseandfallofthehumanempire.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/william-s-burroughs-naked-lunch.pdf Found it :D
AS far as the topic of hunger goes... I dunno man. I get weak and slow and sluggish way prior to pain in my stomach. I can go long bouts without eating but once I break my fast there is a craving for more. But to say that hunger is only once you are in pain... I don't agree quite frankly. if you look at it from a physiological PoV you are not able to lift as much, run as far, or extenuate yourself for as long of periods if you are not properly fed for the day(s).
Also, white rice is a bad example
I love rice. A lot. too much actually. it's so delicious and fluffy. If im allowed to add soy sauce or pressed soy beans to it. oh lawd. sign me up.But sugar, as a form of nourishment is not the holy grail. Calories in Calories out is a pretty simple basic concept. So You are correct and not correct [Call me Confucius lmao] If you are speaking to meet a minimum caloric intake and for the sake of JUST sustaining. No muscle growth, no endurance growth, etc. Then yes that sugar will sustain you to an extent. You could survive. But is surviving the same as living?
Also if you excluded fat, the most vital macronutrient, wouldn't it effect your testosterone, kidney function, immune system etc? I mean look at what would happened to a woman at below 14%. That's insane. Not to mention the lack of micro nutrients attached to a fat source. You would be missing out on a large portion of fat soluble micro nutrients.
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swilow
Bluelight Crew
^What to find what? ![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
drug_mentor
Bluelight Crew
I am going to take the fact that you failed to address a single one of my points in post #47 as a tacit admission on your behalf that your rape scenario was absolute hog wash. Likewise, I am taking your failure to cite a relevant quote as an admission that you fabricated the claim that I stated "pain is a negative factor".
Is he talking about the not small percentage of women and men who experience orgasm while being raped? That's NOT the same as pleasure, and it causes massive psychological scarring, but it does happen. Your body, and the survival of the species, doesn't give a crap about what you feel - they respond to stimulus, period.
WHAT SCIENCE SAYS ABOUT AROUSAL DURING RAPE
drug_mentor
Bluelight Crew
^ Nah, he was having an attempt at a very strange thought experiment which he somehow thought undermined personhood theories.
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Food Addiction in Humans
Abstract: Most of the evidence for or against food addiction in humans focuses on similarities between food craving and drug craving. There are numerous parallels in neuroanatomy, neurochemistry, and learning. Indeed, brain mechanisms for craving probably evolved to promote seeking of natural rewards and are taken over by drugs of abuse. Healthy, normal weight individuals, by definition, do not suffer from food addiction; however, overweight and obese individuals could meet clinical criteria. Palatable foods are not responsible for the obesity problem, because even nonpalatable foods can come to be desired and potentially overconsumed. It may be the way in which foods are consumed (e.g. alternating access and restriction) rather than their sensory properties that leads to an addictive eating pattern
Neurobiology of food addiction
Summary
First, work presented in this review strongly supports the notion that food addiction is a
real phenomenon. Second, although food and drugs of abuse act on the same central
networks, food consumption is also regulated by peripheral signaling systems, which
adds to the complexity of understanding how the body regulates eating, and of treating
pathological eating habits. Third, neurobiological research reviewed here indicates that
traditional pharmacological and behavioral interventions for other substance-use
disorders may prove useful in treating obesity
The Neuroscience of Natural Rewards: Relevance to Addictive Drugs
Addictive drugs act on brain reward systems, although the brain evolved to respond not to drugs but to natural rewards, such as food and sex. Appropriate responses to natural rewards were evolutionarily important for survival, reproduction, and fitness. In a quirk of evolutionary fate, humans discovered how to stimulate this system artificially with drugs. Many molecular features of neural systems instantiating reward, and of those systems affected by addictive drugs, are conserved across species fromDrosophilae to rats to humans and include dopamine (DA), G-proteins, protein kinases, amine transporters, and transcription factors such as cAMP response element-binding protein (CREB). A better understanding of natural brain reward systems will therefore enhance understanding of the neural causation of addiction.
Further Developments in the Neurobiology of Food and Addiction: Update on the State of the Science
Conclusion: It is expected that obesity will continue to be a threat to global health. While experts have worked to develop the hypothesis of palatable food as an addiction over the past 30 years, today research in laboratory animals and humans connecting food and drug addictions has supported a similar role of DA and opioid systems in both conditions. In recognizing these parallels, it is also necessary to understand their limitations. Some are cautious about the notion of “food addiction” because appetite and eating food is necessary to human survival, whereas drugs of abuse are not. However, while humans need food to survive, they do not need excessive amounts of highly-palatable combinations of foods, which seem to be common to our diets. While the science linking food and drug addiction is still relatively young, the emerging data collectively suggest that overlaps do exist in these behaviors, and this warrants further exploration and query. Further studies of “food addiction” in preclinical and clinical models will hopefully allow us to harness the information on the effects of maladaptive feeding behaviors and apply it to better understand how to reinforce healthy living, discover new treatments for overeating and obesity based on the addiction model, and answer questions regarding the types of foods that pose the greatest risk for addictive overeating.
Neurobiology of Addiction
SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS Much progress in neurobiology has provided a useful neurocircuitry framework with which to identify the neurobiological and neuroadaptive mechanisms involved in the development of drug addiction. The brain reward system implicated in the development of addiction is composed of key elements of the basal forebrain with a focus on the nucleus accumbens and central nucleus of the amygdala. Neuropharmacological studies in animal models of addiction have provided evidence for the activation of specific neurochemical mechanisms in specific brain reward neurochemical systems in the basal forebrain (dopamine, opioid peptides, GABA, and endocannabinoids) during the binge/intoxication stage. During the withdrawal/negative affect stage, dysregulation of the same brain reward neurochemical systems occurs in the basal forebrain (dopamine, opioid peptides, GABA, and endocannabinoids).
There is also recruitment of brain stress/aversion systems (CRF and dynorphin) and dysregulation of brain antistress systems (neuropeptide Y) that contribute to the negative motivational state associated with drug abstinence. During the preoccupation/anticipation stage, neurobiological circuits that engage the frontal cortex glutamatergic projections to the nucleus accumbens are critical for drug-induced reinstatement, whereas basolateral amygdala and ventral subiculum glutamatergic projections to the nucleus accumbens are involved in cue-induced reinstatement.
Stress-induced reinstatement appears to be mediated by changes in the antireward systems of the extended amygdala. The changes in craving and antireward (stress) systems are hypothesized to remain outside of a homeostatic state, and as such convey the vulnerability for the development of dependence and relapse in addiction. Genetic studies to date in animals suggest roles for the genes encoding the neurochemical elements involved in the brain reward (dopamine, opioid peptide) and stress (neuropeptide Y) systems in the vulnerability to addiction. Molecular studies have identified transduction and transcription factors that may mediate the dependence-induced reward dysregulation (CREB) and chronic-vulnerability changes (FosB) in neurocircuitry associated with the development and maintenance of addiction. Human imaging studies reveal similar neurocircuits involved in acute intoxication, chronic drug dependence, and vulnerability to relapse.
Although no exact imaging results necessarily predict addiction, two salient changes in established and unrecovered substance-dependent individuals that cut across different drugs are decreases in orbitofrontal/prefrontal cortex function and decreases in brain dopamine D2 receptors. No molecular markers are sufficiently specific to predict the vulnerability to addiction, but changes in certain intermediate early genes with chronic drug exposure in animal models show promise of long-term changes in specific brain regions that may be common to all drugs of abuse. The continually evolving knowledge base of the biological and neurobiological aspects of substance use disorders provides a heuristic framework to better develop diagnoses, prevention, and treatment of substance abuse disorders.
Addiction to drugs, evolution and society: a study on the addiction starting from the evolutionary psychology
Abstract: This article aims to analyze the evolutionary foundations of human addiction to psychoactive substances. To this end, we used two recurrent dichotomous hypotheses in evolutionary psychology literature. The first is that natural selection has structured mechanisms of pleasure in our mind that are linked to the maintenance of life and the reproductive success, and in that drugs are a kind of shortcut within these mechanisms, the co-opts so to speak. In this context the addiction would be linked to chemical imbalance in our brain caused by a wear. The other hypothesis is that psychoactive drugs were important for the maintenance of life of our ancestors when going through difficult times or uncertainties. So, if we consider its addictive factor it would be an adaptive consequence of the common use of drugs in the past. Our results show that even that is not possible to define which of the hypotheses is more adherent, both results show that humans are susceptible to addictions.
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The treatment of heroin addicts with dextromethorphan: a double-blind comparison of dextromethorphan with chlorpromazine
Abstract: According to the hypothesis that the development of physical dependence on and tolerance to opiates depends on the inhibition by opiates of L-asparaginase and L-glutaminase activities in the brain, and the blockade by opiates of the aspartatergic/glutamatergic receptors especially NMDA, four female and fourty-four male heroin addicts were included in a double-blind clinical trial. Four mg chlorpromazine (CPZ) was administered every hour and 10 mg diazepam (DIA) every 6 hours to a group consisting of two female and nineteen male inpatients. The remaining subjects received 15 mg non-opioid antitussive dextromethorphan (DM) instead of CPZ. The withdrawn addicts were controlled twice a day and yawning, lacrimation, rhinorrhoea, perspiration, goose flesh, muscle tremor, dilated pupils, anorexia, joint and muscle aches, restlessness, insomnia, emesis, diarrhea, craving and rejection of smoking as abstinence syndrome signs were observed and rated on a scale of 1, 2 and 3 points according to their intensity. All signs, except perspiration and emesis, were significantly less intense in the group given DM + DIA than CPZ + DIA. The other plus points included the immediate stop of craving and the early onset of smoking in DM + DIA group. The results are considered to be supporting evidence for the hypothesis emphasizing the blockade of NMDA receptors by opiates in opiate addiction. Furthermore, the decrease caused by non-opioid NMDA antagonists in the responsiveness of NMDA receptors appears very promising for the treatment of opiate addicts.
The combination of tizanidine markedly improves the treatment with dextromethorphan of heroin addicted outpatients.
Abstract: According to the hypothesis implying that the main mechanism underlying opiate addiction is the blockade by opiates of NMDA receptor functions and subsequent upregulation and supersensitivity of the receptors, noncompetitive NMDA receptor blocker dextromethorphan (DM) has been successfully used in the heroin addict treatment. As the stimulation of NMDA receptors modulates the release of neurotransmitters and hormones such as NE, D, ACh, GH, LH, LSH, ACTH etc., all of which have been found responsible for the manifestation of abstinence syndrome signs including craving and neuronal death by excessive stimulation of NMDA receptors, the incomplete blockade of the NMDA receptors minimizes the intensity of the abstinence syndrome and provides the downregulation of the receptors. In the present study, tizanidine (TIZ), which inhibits the release of endogenous excitatory aminoacids by the agonistic activity on alpha 2-adrenoreceptors, was combined with DM to obtain further benefits. Forty-four male and three female heroin addicts were the subjects of the study. Their daily mean heroin intake was about 2.28 g street heroin. The main duration of heroin use was approximately 3.4 years. Two to three hours after abrupt withdrawal, the outpatients were given 15 mg DM every hour, 25 or 50 mg chlorpromazine (CPZ) + 4 mg TIZ every six hours and 10 mg diazepam + 10 mg hyoscine N-butyl Br + 250 mg dipyrone every six hours three hours following CPZ. The addicts were controlled twice a day. Yawning, rhinorrhea, perspiration, piloerection, restlessness, insomnia, emesis, diarrhea, craving, rejection of smoking and pupils were observed and/or questioned. Two of the 47 outpatients took heroin on the first days.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
Oral administration of dextromethorphan prevents the development of morphine tolerance and dependence in rats
Abstract: Combined oral administration of morphine sulfate (MS) and the over-the-counter antitussive drug and N-methyl-d-aspartate receptor antagonist dextromethorphan (DM) prevented the development of tolerance to the antinociceptive effects of MS (15, 24, or 32 mg/kg) in rats. This combined oral treatment regimen also attenuated signs of naloxone-precipitated physical dependence on morphine in the same rats. A wide range of ratios of MS to DM (2:1, 1:1, and 1:2) were effective for preventing the development of morphine tolerance and dependence. In addition, we provide evidence that under certain circumstances DM increases the acute antinociceptive effects of MS. All of these results indicate that oral treatment that combines DM with opiate analgesics may be a powerful approach for simultaneously preventing opiate tolerance and dependence and enhancing analgesia in humans.
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and for all the frickin' assholes who tell me self-medication can only be abuse:
Dextromethorphan as a potential rapid-acting antidepressant
Abstract: Dextromethorphan shares pharmacological properties in common with antidepressants and, in particular, ketamine, a drug with demonstrated rapid-acting antidepressant activity. Pharmacodynamic similarities include actions on NMDA, μ opiate, sigma-1, calcium channel, serotonin transporter, and muscarinic sites. Additional unique properties potentially contributory to an antidepressant effect include actions at ß, alpha-2, and serotonin1b/d receptors. It is therefore, hypothesized that dextromethorphan may have antidepressant efficacy in bipolar, unipolar, major depression, psychotic, and treatment-resistant depressive disorders, and may display rapid-onset of antidepressant response. An antidepressant response may be associated with a positive family history of alcoholism, prediction of ketamine response, increased AMPA–to–NMDA receptor activity ratio, antidepressant properties in animal models of depression, reward system activation, enhanced erythrocyte magnesium concentration, and correlation with frontal μ receptor binding potential. Clinical trials of dextromethorphan in depressive disorders, especially treatment-resistant depression, now seem warranted.
An extension of hypotheses regarding rapid-acting, treatment-refractory, and conventional antidepressant activity of dextromethorphan and dextrorphan
Abstract: It was previously hypothesized that dextromethorphan (DM) and dextrorphan (DX) may possess antidepressant properties, including rapid and conventional onsets of action and utility in treatment-refractory depression, based on pharmacodynamic similarities to ketamine. These similarities included sigma-1 (σ1) agonist and NMDA antagonist properties, calcium channel blockade, muscarinic binding, serotonin transporter (5HTT) inhibition, and μ receptor potentiation. Here, six specific hypotheses are developed in light of additional mechanisms and evidence. Comparable potencies to ketamine for DM and DX are detailed for σ1 (DX > DM > ketamine), NMDA PCP site (DX > ketamine > DM), and muscarinic (DX > ketamine >>>> DM) receptors, 5HTT (DM > DX ≫ ketamine), and NMDA antagonist potentiation of μ receptor stimulation (DM > ketamine). Rapid acting antidepressant properties of DM include NMDA high-affinity site, NMDR-2A, and functional NMDR-2B receptor antagonism, σ1 stimulation, putative mTOR activation (by σ1 stimulation, μ potentiation, and 5HTT inhibition), putative AMPA receptor trafficking (by mTOR activation, PCP antagonism, σ1 stimulation, μ potentiation, and 5HTT inhibition), and dendritogenesis, spinogenesis, synaptogenesis, and neuronal survival by NMDA antagonism and σ1 and mTOR signaling. Those for dextrorphan include NMDA high-affinity site and NMDR-2A antagonism, σ1 stimulation, putative mTOR activation (by σ1 stimulation and ß adrenoreceptor stimulation), putative AMPA receptor trafficking (by mTOR activation, PCP antagonism, σ1 stimulation, ß stimulation, and μ antagonism), and dendritogenesis, spinogenesis, synaptogenesis, and neuronal survival by NMDA antagonism and σ1 and mTOR signaling. Conventional antidepressant properties for dextromethorphan and dextrorphan include 5HTT and norepinephrine transporter inhibition, σ1 stimulation, NMDA and PCP antagonism, and possible serotonin 5HT1b/d receptor stimulation. Additional properties for dextromethorphan include possible presynaptic α2 adrenoreceptor antagonism or postsynaptic α2 stimulation and, for dextrorphan, ß stimulation and possible muscarinic and μ antagonism. Treatment-refractory depression properties include increased serotonin and norepinephrine availability, PCP, NMDR-2B, presynaptic alpha-2 antagonism, and the multiplicity of other antidepressant receptor mechanisms. Suggestions for clinical trials are provided for oral high-dose dextromethorphan and Nuedexta (dextromethorphan combined with quinidine to block metabolism to dextrorphan, thereby increasing dextromethorphan plasma concentrations). Suggestions include exclusionary criteria, oral dosing, observation periods, dose–response approaches, and safety and tolerability are considered. Although oral dextromethorphan may be somewhat more likely to show efficacy through complementary antidepressant mechanisms of dextrorphan, a clinical trial will be more logistically complex than one of Nuedexta due to high doses and plasma level variability. Clinical trials may increase our therapeutic armamentarium and our pharmacological understanding of treatment-refractory depression and antidepressant onset of action.
Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
First of, you're talking to the wrong person. If you went through my post history I am an advocator for DXM in heroin abuse, Just check out the archives. I think someone posted in the same opiate post I did not too long ago (9 posts down http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/769013-opiate-withdrawal )
Also... self medication when done properly is one owns medication. Abuse comes when you... well you know... put an actual strain on your body. Hence the abuse part.
Also! Please respond the rest of my post, you only quoted the top.
Also... self medication when done properly is one owns medication. Abuse comes when you... well you know... put an actual strain on your body. Hence the abuse part.
Also! Please respond the rest of my post, you only quoted the top.
Helpmehelptheworld
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2015
- Messages
- 101
I also now see where you get the onomonopoeia of your writing. The whole Beat style is set really well into Naked lunch and other writers of that time. Although I disliked on the road it has the same pitter patter style of harshness and idiomatic expression that makes it hard not to nod and agree that it has a wonder within itself.
GodandLove
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2013
- Messages
- 1,557
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz6qSfDvQQc
Some would call me a sick, unsympathetic bastard for supporting this
http://www.smh.com.au/world/teen-gi...-of-friend-conrad-roy-18-20150825-gj768t.html
Or thinking that this should be legal...
However, if you like my opinions or not, you're not counting one crucial issue.
You support THIS!!!
This isn't a gross picture... How? How is this gross, this is your money.
I support it too, I got to the grocery store.
So how can I judge another persons beliefs or sense of morality when I myself am immoral. Yes, eating meat makes you unethical if you buy from factory farms... Now if you eat 100% free range meat, vegan, hunted meat, or humanely killed meat... then you have room to talk
But you LIKE this... Do you eat Smithfield ham on Christmas? Then you support animal abuse. Do you like KFC, then YES. You like animal torture. You like animal confinement. You put your money into it, so you must like it. At least I admit that I'm an unethical person. I don't make excuses. That's not an insult... Abortion is baby killing. Objective fact. Period. You can have different views on abortion, but it is, objectively, the killing of babies. (I'm not pro-life by the way)
Meat eaters financially support animal abuse.. objective fact, not opinion. So don't tell me I'm insulting you by saying you support animal abuse, because it's an objective, indisputable fact that you support animal abuse.
I... am... not... a... good... person...
A good person doesn't support factory farming, therefore, I am a bad person. If you eat meat from factory farms, YOU'RE an unethical human being.
Now... some would say... How can I compare judging people for eating meat, to judging people for supporting suicide like I do? Factory farming affects animals, suicide affects people. Therefore, I'm a bad person for supporting suicide, but factory farming affects animals so it's morally irrelevant. That is a classic excuse not to think. That's not even an argument.
And let me take that retarded ass statement at face value... Factory farming contributes to human loss. The grains used to feed livestocks are being taken out the mouths of starving African kids every day... So even if your logic was sound, you're still wrong.
So if you eat meat thats factory farmed, like me, you support animal torture and starvation of children... Objective fact.
So... How could one who eats meat, call something else unethical?
By using this logic, anyone who drives an automobile or uses any form electricity that isn't derived from solar panels, is by default immoral because they're indirectly contributing to global warming. "If you drive an automobile, you love climate change." Same goes for anyone using an Iphone or any other technological device made in sweatshop like factories environment.
That means everyone on this forum, vegan or not is "immoral"... Whatever that means.
larrypoppins
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2014
- Messages
- 5
The original premise of this thread is just dripping with the kind of self-righteous, holier-than-thou judgey douchebaggery one would expect from Dana Carvey's Church Lady.