Apple Cider Vinegar and Methamphetamine orally..

[Jabberwocky]

Hey @shugenja . Try to keep everything in one post. It makes it easier for more people to read what you have to write. I don't mind debating with people. It's really an important part of what we do. I understand that things can become heated when people both believe they are right. We have to resist the urge though. It doesn't help anyone, it implies that you're feeling beaten and it contributes nothing to the academic discourse. I'm not going to force you to change it, but if you want more people to read and comprehend your argument, it's best to think it through, make and outline (physical or mental) and then write. You said "lastly" more than once. I don't think the way you're sounding is actually the way you are appearing to the community.

I said it in my first reply; we are here for knowledge and to help one another. If you are determined to be right more than you are dedicated to finding the Truth, then you are misunderstanding what we are all about. If you disagree with someone. you don't have to tell them they're "full of crap". It's just unnecessary, because whatever anger you feel for me that is producing this language is not reciprocated by me. I'm just here discussing Harm Reduction as always. I'm not condescending here man, but this is important. If you go out of your way to insult people and then you're proven wrong, you're proven wrong in front of everybody, for the rest of Bluelight's history.

So, are you aware that ascorbic acid is Vitamin C? Vitamin C is an essential nutrient and we consume it everyday provided we have a proper diet. You talk about needing severe medicine to reduce urinary Ph, then you go on to say that the same can be done using Vitamin C and some cranberry juice... literally things that I and many others will have in their house already. I don't know what the problem is, because we pretty much are agreeing that there are myriad ways of raising or lowering urinary Ph. It can be raised and lowered. It is constantly in flux and we both agree that even a Vitamin C tablet can have an effect. I'm hoping with this., we can move on from this basic point.

Next, you're discussing changes in Urinary Ph as indicated by using a standard acid test. You're referring to the amount changed with no context for what the human body can and can't tolerate. An example: if we lose 10% of the water in our body, we are basically at death's door. It's not like we go through the day using that full 100%. I think you're looking at the acid test numbers simply as numbers, with 1 or 2 known to be small, low numbers. This has nothing to do with the clinical relevance of these changes. You give absolutely no context.

I provided you with materials directly related to our topic of discussion. I even helped explain them a little bit. You're not taking my word for it, you're taking the word of highly-educated physicians writing in peer-reviewed settings. Peer-reviewed means that the physician who wrote it, sent it around to many other physicians and these physicians agree with the statements made by the first. Barring some kind of conspiracy, which, sure, is possible in this world, peer-reviewed research is as good as it gets in terms of veracity.



There are a lot of issues with these statements man. I'm not trying to tear you apart, but you're clearly filling the blanks with your own suppositions. Sometimes we have to do that when we learn, but you can't really use whatever pops into your head in a debate about medicine. You say "lack of urinary flow", whatever that actually means, is the greatest indicator of Methamphetamine excretion. That's just not true man.

The only article you've provided me to back up your statements is about PCP. PCP is a different drug, with different pharmacokinetics that substituted Phenethylamines. Aside from that, the article discusses urinary Ph in general and I'm not exactly sure what part of the article is supposed to make your main point, as it seems we're already in agreement about being able to change urinary Ph with all kinds of different stuff.

Please just try not to come into a thread and challenge someone for personal reasons. I appreciate that you're trying to learn and we'll always support you, but you are not going to make friends or have a good scholastic reputation if you continue posting these things as fact that you don't truly understand. It's not just about an argument. Harm Reduction concerns peoples' safety. You can always raise a dissenting opinion. That's what the community is all about. I'm not holding this against you or anything, but it will be difficult for us to get along if this type of thing persists., Don't think about me. Think about the thousands of people who will come here seeking help.

None of this is personal. I really encourage you to read the materials I have posted and try to understand. I wasn't born knowing all this shit myself. I've read and been brought up by other BL'ers. In fairness, I have read all of your posts, word for word and I legitimately read the article about PCP. Mistakes happen and it doesn't mean you're an idiot. I think you really care about this and I appreciate that 1000%, but prepare yourself to be wrong, because it will inevitably happen again. In that event, take your time, do the research and come back with your best answer in a single, easy format i.e. a single post.

Sorry, I just reread this. You did list the acceptable bounds for urinary Ph as between 5.5 and 7, which I've verified is pretty accurate. With that in mind, that would mean a change of 0.9 would literally be a 2/3 increase or decrease. The scale goes from 1-10, but the effective range for a human is that small window, as you have said yourself. With that, you can see both how and why Amphetamines are effected by urinary Ph in such a way. I'm not going to talk to you like a child. I'm sure you get the basic statistical significance.

Just to break this idea all the way down, if the "goldilocks zone" is ~1.5 and we know (from the articles) that urinary Ph significantly alters the excretion of Amphetamines and we further know that this zone can be changed easily through the use of acidic/alkaline substance, that should be a good explanation.

I did read your articles, and you apparently misread them.

0.9 had to do with magnesium and aluminum hydroxide which is milk of magnesia and milk of alumina. Not tums. In fact, it's extremely hard to do that with just hums because calcium carbonate is not as strong.

Changing excretion is not changing metabolism.

You have yet to prove that apple cider vinegar changes urinary pH in healthy people.

Secondly, the article on PCP has nothing to do with PCP. It has to do with the drugs used to lower urinary pH.

I never disputed that a lower urinary pH causes more excretion of methamphetamine and its metabolites, I simply challenge your statement that apple cider vinegar will change urinary pH enough to even change excretion. I provided a study that shows in healthy people with normal potassium levels It doesn't change urinary pH.

What I dispute is that taking apple cider vinegar with methamphetamine alters its metabolism. It does not alter it's metabolism. The body metabolizes methamphetamine at whatever speed. It metabolizes it. Unchanged Methamphetamine may be recycled, but it is still metabolized at the same rate.

Your premise is incorrect. And what you stated harms people if they believe it.

If you're here to help people with your knowledge then don't say things that are provably incorrect.

If you want to be helpful and give people information regarding how to change the metabolism of methamphetamine in the body, it will be correct to discuss substances that increase or inhibit the activity of CYP2D6.

Prozac and Paxil are two drugs that significantly inhibit CYP2D6, as such, they would significantly decrease the metabolism of methamphetamine by the liver and would result in a larger area under the curve with respect to methamphetamine in the body.

On the other hand, dexamethasone and corticosterone, are both potent inducers of CYP2D6. As such, they would increase the metabolism of methamphetamine and reduce the total area under the curve.

It would not however lead to a higher max serum level that has to do and only has to do with the dose taken.

Drinking extremely large amounts of water would the greatest effect in clearing methamphetamine and it's metabolites from the body, especially since methamphetamine abusers are notoriously dehydrated and don't drink very much water, and the fact that urinary flow is the number one factor in excretion of methamphetamine and its metabolites.

Excretion is derived as amount of substance per amount of urine. Increasing the amount of urine is done by increasing fluid intake.

If you can't deal with somebody telling you you're wrong and then giving evidence to that fact, and somehow can't get along with that person, that's your problem, not mine.

I don't have to kiss your behind. I didn't insult you. I simply said you were wrong.

Excretion is not metabolism no matter how much you want it to be.

And lastly pH does not work like that. pH is a logarithmic scale.

A change of 0.9 which was the max using something other than Tums which is the example you used of your grandmother, is only a change of less than 1/3.

A pH of 7.0 is 32 times less acidic than a pH of 5.5.

A pH of 6.4 is approximately nine times less acidic.

A change in pH of 0.5 is equivalent to 3.2 times difference in acidity or alkalinity. The exact number is actually the square root of 10.


Are you going to say that me pointing out you don't understand how a logarithmic scale works and that pH is a logarithmic scale, is me being mean or somehow attacking you personally?

 

[Jabberwocky]

drinking acid things with oral amphetamines makes it weaker, Taking them with basic stuff like tums or eno will increase the effects

This is correct. Antacids would allow for more absorption of methamphetamine because methamphetamine is a weak base. More and faster absorption leads to a higher initial bioavailable dose.


Apple cider vinegar won't do much of anything, apple cider vinegar has a pH of between two and three, so it's not going to appreciably change the pH of stomach acid. The only thing that's going to happen is it's going to give you heartburn.

That being said, neither apple cider vinegar nor antacid is going to change the metabolism of methamphetamine.

To change the metabolism, one would need to cause the CYP 450 enzymes in the liver to either work faster or be inhibited that's called induction or inhibition.

The primary CYP450 enzyme in the liver responsible for metabolizing methamphetamine is CYP2D6.

Prozac, paxil, and several other psychotropic drugs are inhibitors of CYP2D6 which will mean a larger area under the curve -- it takes longer for the liver to metabolize methamphetamine.

Dexamethasone and possibly other corticosteroids induce CYP2D6 which means metabolism would occur faster.

One should not conflate or confuse metabolism with increased excretion.

While recycled unexcreted methamphetamine can extend the high from methamphetamine, that would be the same as drinking your urine which many methamphetamine addicts do. It does not, however, mean that metabolism is faster or slower.

Except in people with low potassium, apple cider vinegar has been shown to not change Urinary pH in healthy people.

All things being equal urinary flow is the driver of the excretion of methamphetamine and methamphetamine metabolites or the retention and recycling of such.

Not drinking fluids or being dehydrated will result in retention of urine and retention of fluid by the kidneys, the kidneys retain fluid when you're dehydrated.

 

[Keif' Richards]

This is correct. Antacids would allow for more absorption of methamphetamine because methamphetamine is a weak base. More and faster absorption leads to a higher initial bioavailable dose.


Apple cider vinegar won't do much of anything, apple cider vinegar has a pH of between two and three, so it's not going to appreciably change the pH of stomach acid. The only thing that's going to happen is it's going to give you heartburn.

That being said, neither apple cider vinegar nor antacid is going to change the metabolism of methamphetamine.

To change the metabolism, one would need to cause the CYP 450 enzymes in the liver to either work faster or be inhibited that's called induction or inhibition.

The primary CYP450 enzyme in the liver responsible for metabolizing methamphetamine is CYP2D6.

Prozac, paxil, and several other psychotropic drugs are inhibitors of CYP2D6 which will mean a larger area under the curve -- it takes longer for the liver to metabolize methamphetamine.

Dexamethasone and possibly other corticosteroids induce CYP2D6 which means metabolism would occur faster.

One should not conflate or confuse metabolism with increased excretion.

While recycled unexcreted methamphetamine can extend the high from methamphetamine, that would be the same as drinking your urine which many methamphetamine addicts do. It does not, however, mean that metabolism is faster or slower.

Except in people with low potassium, apple cider vinegar has been shown to not change Urinary pH in healthy people.

All things being equal urinary flow is the driver of the excretion of methamphetamine and methamphetamine metabolites or the retention and recycling of such.

Not drinking fluids or being dehydrated will result in retention of urine and retention of fluid by the kidneys, the kidneys retain fluid when you're dehydrated.

You yourself agreed that drinking vinegar can alter urinary Ph. I'm not really sure what you're arguing about. That is the one thing you're still clinging to, yet you forget that you yourself already validated the point as possible. You just seemed to argue about the volume necessary and to that point, I will say, I never stated any such volume requirement. I only argued that it was possible, which, again, you've already agreed on. a QUART of volume is really not even that much, like what, two water glasses?

I don't think you realize that your arguments are fluctuating even in this very thread. I wanted to help you out, but this proves to me that you're fixated on being right in this argument over actually seeking knowledge for yourself or for the people here. I hope you find what you're looking for. I want you to be a productive member of the community. Above right and wrong in all of this are your motivations for being here. If you think you're right, that's all you should need. You've already agreed to most of the basic points that myself and everyone else seems to believe. I'm not gonna fight you on it. As you can see, it's just you and me here in this thread at this point. I was here for you. If you don't want the learning, then I'm not gonna waste my time.

For anyone else reading, you can pretty much stick to what you've already read and know about Amphetamines. @shugenja you're welcome to keep posting here, but if it gets overly negative, I'm gonna have to close you down.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I'm trying to throw out an olive branch here. I don't want there to be any unnecessary negativity. All I can say is that I've been reading on this subject for literally a decade man. I've discussed it with medical doctors, pharmacists, researchers and other self-educated folks like myself here on Bluelight. I'm not sure if it was something I said that started this off, but we can still get along. I just want you to know that there are lots of things I discuss on here that, I must say I am not fully-educated on. The other day, someone said "what produces a greater kindling effect, GABA A or GABA B drugs" I participated in the discussion, but all of us present are speaking in totally theoretical, "what if" terms. The issue we're discussing here about Amphetamines is something I would consider hard and fast, concrete knowledge. I've read it, verified it, discussed it and better yet, I have felt an undeniable difference in how Amphetamines effect me personally by consuming antacids.

Everything you're discussing are different antacids. Some are magnesium, some are calcium, so on. If maybe one brand is not as strong as another, that probably just means taking some extra. It's not like an impossibility to find inter-brand conformity talking about stuff as simple as antacids.

It seems that in the timeline of this thread, you have slowly accepted basically all of my original points and we've ended with you saying all of this is over the single item of apple cider, which you have also relented to. If you decide you want this thread deleted, I'll delete it for you and we never have to talk about it again. People will forget and we can move on. We all make mistakes. Literally, just ask and it will be gone. No harm no foul.

 

[CFC]

Lol how bizarre. Try drinking just a teeny amount of something acidic or alkaline. Get some pH testing strips. And watch your urinary pH gyrate like a pendulum. It's very easy to adjust urinary pH.

 

[Lysosomalstorage]

Perhaps he's confusing how diet doesn't affect blood pH rather than urinary pH it would be pretty hard to do even cursory research on the subject without finding evidence for things as minor as soft drinks affecting urine pH

 

[Jabberwocky]

Lol how bizarre. Try drinking just a teeny amount of something acidic or alkaline. Get some pH testing strips. And watch your urinary pH gyrate like a pendulum. It's very easy to adjust urinary pH.

Not really.

Gatorade has a pH of three. Doesn't appreciably change urinary pH. Neither does Coca-Cola. Now ammonium chloride along with about 18 oz of cranberry juice will do the trick. Metabolites of cranberry juice are acids. Just because something's acidic doesn't mean it's metabolite is acidic.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Perhaps he's confusing how diet doesn't affect blood pH rather than urinary pH it would be pretty hard to do even cursory research on the subject without finding evidence for things as minor as soft drinks affecting urine pH

No I'm talking about urinary pH.

There's a drug called methenamine that has to have a significantly acidic urine to work in, and most of the time it's extremely hard for people to get their urine that acidic. Because drinking apple cider vinegar doesn't work, they prescribe ammonium chloride, or drinking very very large amounts of cranberry juice, because a metabolite of cranberry juice is actually an acid. Not so with apple cider vinegar.

Kief's own citation even shows that unless somebody is extremely deficient in potassium, apple cider vinegar doesn't appreciably change the pH of urine.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Perhaps he's confusing how diet doesn't affect blood pH rather than urinary pH it would be pretty hard to do even cursory research on the subject without finding evidence for things as minor as soft drinks affecting urine pH

Perhaps if you drink 1.5-2 liters of Coca-Cola in 2 HOURS.

Influence of various beverages on urine acid output - PubMed

High dose methotrexate therapy requires a high alkaline urine output. In order to evaluate the effect of various beverages on the urine acid output, healthy volunteers (n = 6) took 1.5-2 liters of a test drink during a 2-h period. On the test day urine pH and urine acid excretion (titratable...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yeah, actual real science instead of people saying what they think is correct.

You'll notice that acidic orange juice actually raises urinary pH. Once again, we're talking about 2 liters in 2 hours.

And you will notice that my initial post stated perhaps if they drink a quart of apple cider vinegar ....

 

[Lysosomalstorage]

I don't know about apple cider vinegar, I was just refering to the notion what you drink can directly effect urinary pH. Calcium oxalate studies show participants having small pH changes with as little as 250ml cola a day so it does still change. The more diet it is the more inorganic acid there is I guess and the higher the change. I imagine soda recipes have changed since the mid 80s too.

I suppose this thread sort of got off it's original point which was apple cider vinegar

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't know about apple cider vinegar, I was just refering to the notion what you drink can directly effect urinary pH. Calcium oxalate studies show participants having small pH changes with as little as 250ml cola a day so it does still change. The more diet it is the more inorganic acid there is I guess and the higher the change. I imagine soda recipes have changed since the mid 80s too.

I suppose this thread sort of got off it's original point which was apple cider vinegar

And small pH changes versus pH changes is the point.

If you can post something that shows non-transient significant urinary pH change from 250 ml of cola, fine

(and none of this "no other fluids and no foods for the rest of the day" dehydration acidifies urine because of the accumulation of uric acid and other acidic metabolic byproducts in a highly concentrated, small volume of urine) - obviously this is useless with respect to excretion dynamics because there's almost no urine being produced

However, the half-life of methamphetamine is 9 hours and people tweak for days. So unless you're going to be drinking gallons of Coca-Cola or gallons of apple cider vinegar, it's not going to appreciably change urinary pH for the purpose that's supposed to be happening.

Like my citation shows, orange juice which is demonstrably acidic actually causes an increase in urinary pH. Now I didn't pull the paper because it was an abstract so that may be a small increase in urinary pH, however, we have an example of an acidic beverage that doesn't acidify urine.

And one must also look at the massive amounts of beverages imbibed in the study I posted. 2 liters in 2 hours. That's a half a gallon.

I challenge any tweaker on this board to drink a half gallon of apple cider vinegar and not have to go to the emergency room with chemical burns in their (most likely empty) digestive tract.

I mean think about it people, eating fries with vinegar burns your mouth and that's just a tiny little bit.