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ANTIFA attacks peaceful right wing protestors in Berkeley CA.

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It seems this was brushed over before, probably because everyone disagreeing realised they were wrong, but antifa is a terrorist organisation.. or at least it openly partakes in acts of terrorism.

terrorism
?t?r?r?z?m/Submit
noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
"the fight against terrorism"

"The justification [of the use of violence] is that Nazi ideology at its very core is founded on violence and on wielding power by any means," said Mike Isaacson, one of the founders of Smash Racism D.C., an antifa organization in Washington.

They're not just attacking Nazis though. They're attacking anyone that openly voices a view point that doesn't align with theirs. They're attacking people wearing a "make America great again" hat. They attacked a scientist for publishing a paper on his research into race, IQ, gender and class.. this man wasn't racist, he opposed trump, and not that it matter but he is an orthodox Jew. They literally are a facist organisation that use terrorism as a tool.
 
Have you read through this thread?
The same line has been trotted out at least a dozen times, and rebutted at length.

A lot of the issues surrounding racism are related to power structures and white hegemony.
But beyond that, the points you make aren't really specific enough to respond to.

Nazis didn't simply engage in anti-leftist violence, so the comparison between fash and anti-fash just doesn't hold up very well for me (or others - but i'm not going to keep explaining it over and over again).

Also, i haven't seen antifa kill anyone, let alone - y'know ukip or tory politicians (i'm referring to Jo Cox here, murdered by a fascist on the eve of the brexit referendum in the UK).
Some people (including myself) would argue that with fascists attempting to mobilise on the streets (as they have online and in the US political mainstream) this is a time to be vigilant, and stand up for our communities against fascist violence - not complacently dismiss the whole thing.

There has been a massive effort on the part of the mainstream press to demonise anti-fascists, but we're just everyday people for the most part.
 
I agree that having fascists mobilise on the streets is worrying and quite embarassing.

The fact that it was a legal rally is moreso worrying and embarassing.

It it like the protests about mosques in Ballarat ( or Bendigo they are the same thing to me starting with B) ...

Just remember the usual schmo in the public can see a fascist is just a pos and wont be swayed hopefully.
 
People that voted for Brexit were immediately labelled as racist, regardless of their reasons for their vote. Same with trump supporters.

They attacked a scientist for publishing a paper on his research into race, IQ, gender and class.. this man wasn't racist, he opposed trump, and not that it matter but he is an orthodox Jew.

A. All Trump supporters are not racist.
B. All people who oppose Trump are not racist.
C. All racists are Trump supporters.

A+B=C
 
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A. All Trump supporters are not racist.
B. All people who oppose Trump are not racist.
C. All racists are Trump supporters.

A+B=C

I found this post perplexing, and am convinced that I must be missing something. (Assuming I am correct about this, I would be grateful if you would identify the lacuna in my understanding.)

It seems the only substantive conclusion about racists and Trump supporters which you could validly infer from the conjunction of A and B is 'Nobody who supports or opposes Trump is a racist' (strictly speaking, there are several others; all of which would either be equivalent to or weaker than the conclusion just stated). I certainly see no way to validly infer C from A and B. Also, the poster in question never claimed that 'All Trump supporters are not racist'; he implied 'Not all Trump supporters are racist'. There is a significant logical difference between these two statements.
 
No identifiable lacuna(e).
My impression was that the quoted poster wasn't big on logic.

My post format was admittedly catnip to draw you and several posters of your bright ilk out a bit. Only a partial success, but the day is young. ;)
 
A. All Trump supporters are not racist.
B. All people who oppose Trump are not racist.
C. All racists are Trump supporters.

A+B=C

That's pretty much my point?

Have you read through this thread?
The same line has been trotted out at least a dozen times, and rebutted at length.

A lot of the issues surrounding racism are related to power structures and white hegemony.
But beyond that, the points you make aren't really specific enough to respond to.

What is your point? I'm aware that a lot of this backlash and hypocrisy stems from white males having a sort of genetic benefit within society but racism is racism, sexism is sexism and prejudices are prejudices. You cannot fight against lack of equality by treating people as anything other than equal. It's not reasonable to reverse the rolls and establish a one rule for us and another rule for them.

Also, i haven't seen antifa kill anyone, let alone - y'know ukip or tory politicians (i'm referring to Jo Cox here, murdered by a fascist on the eve of the brexit referendum in the UK).

I'm in no way trying to imply that right wing extremism isn't a bigger problem, but antifa is still a Facist organisation. They use violence to achieve a politically motivated goal, do they not?

Some people (including myself) would argue that with fascists attempting to mobilise on the streets (as they have online and in the US political mainstream) this is a time to be vigilant, and stand up for our communities against fascist violence - not complacently dismiss the whole thing.

It is, you're right. But getting a few digs in on a trump supporter isn't going to change anything.. and is actually just a dick thing to do. Smashing up cars and shop windows is retarded. Getting an egg in the face of a vocal nazi is not going to help. If you want to stop the rise of right wing extremists you're going about it so very very wrong.

You will never get ride of racist ideology, you'll only push the believers and followers under ground. You can't offer a differing opinion to someone who hides theirs from you.

There has been a massive effort on the part of the mainstream press to demonise anti-fascists, but we're just everyday people

Maybe because antifas black bloc tactics are fcking dumb? It's widely accepted that racism is wrong, that nazism is something to fight against and that the KKK are a bunch of morons. But antifa is doing nothing to stop them, nothing to changes people's minds and nothing to help. It's only making the liberal left look like a bunch of pissed off students after theyve gone out and got pissed for the first time.
 
Ever since the alt-reich lost their shit and went full terrorist in charlottesville, they've not had a single successful demonstration.
You don't have to like "black bloc tactics", but i would argue that it has been working.
Look how irate the american far right is that anybody has stood up to them and their threats.

If antifa were ineffective, i imagine they would get a lot less attention from all the fascist enablers and apologists.
It bothers the powerful and loud fringe groups when communities stand up for themselves and make racists unwelcome.

Fwiw, not all antifascists are part of any given black bloc, it's just one of many tactics. The vast majority of anti-fascist actions are totally non-violent.
 
Ever since the alt-reich lost their shit and went full terrorist in charlottesville, they've not had a single successful demonstration.
You don't have to like "black bloc tactics", but i would argue that it has been working.
Look how irate the american far right is that anybody has stood up to them and their threats.

If antifa were ineffective, i imagine they would get a lot less attention from all the fascist enablers and apologists.
It bothers the powerful and loud fringe groups when communities stand up for themselves and make racists unwelcome.

Fwiw, not all antifascists are part of any given black bloc, it's just one of many tactics. The vast majority of anti-fascist actions are totally non-violent.

To be honest I'm all for counter protests, to gather up a lot more people with messages of love to drow out the messages of hate. This would have been enough to have thwarted a "successful demonstration".

Instead, a normally mundane and nowhere near news worthy event become's national news because of assaults and arrests with acompanying video of antifa member attacking someone for peacefully sharing their views. In this scenario, who is the victim?

More attention doesn't nessecarily mean good attention. It seems pretty obvious that it's actually leaning towards bad attention. When the people opposing facism come out of it looking like the bad guys, who are the good?

Hatred breed's hatred.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GIHktEJsJXI
 
Fair points, but the press is going out of their way to demonise all militant left wing activists. They tend to do the same to all anti-establishment demonstrations.
I mean, look at some of the ridiculous lengths the tabloids (and conservative broadsheets alike) go to in demonising totally peaceful anti-war activists or protest groups like Black Lives Matter.

I don't deny that some antifascists get carried away, but it's not something that should reflect on all of us, or the tactic of resisting fascism through disrupting and picketing fascist demonstrations.

The point i keep coming back to though, is that fascism/nazism is implicitly violent.
If people are organising to advocate genocide/"ethnic cleansing"/creating "white ethnostates" then they're not peacefully sharing their views - they're engaging in very dangerous rhetoric and inciting violence and murder.
I cannot accept incitement of violence as "peaceful protest".

As for bad publicity, there are a few different ways of looking at it.

The "goal" of most militant antifascists is to increase the cost of entry to fascist and neo-nazi politics.
You are absolutely correct - we will never be able to rid the world of racism or other forms of malignant prejudice.
The thing we can do is prevent these people from organising and forming gangs who enable one another to engage in violence and intimidation of people in the community who fit the usual list of targets of nazis - black folk, muslims, gay people, drug users, leftists etc etc.
If racists see that they will become targets if they go marching through jewish areas chanting "yids out" or whatever, the idea is that they'll think twice about doing so.
Unlike the people that nazis target, nazis themselves absolutely have the choice to reform and change their behaviour.
Gay folks, black folks etc don't have that ability - they're born that way.

So yeah - i hate violence, and think it is pretty depressing to see people turn up to demos to fight one another, but i also think it is important to have some people that are brave and passionate enough to engage with nazis on the street so the rest of us don't have to. Guys with swastika tatts, steelcap boots and clubs don't show up to these things to debate politics, and i strongly believe that if they are uncontested, their movements will grow - especially when they are fed by decades (or centuries) of racist newspapers and racist politicians fanning the flames of distrust and division.

I've been to heaps of "antifa" rallies over the years, and i've never committed an act of violence.
It's totally overhyped. The one thing i've seen at demonstrations more times than i care to remember though, is police attacking peaceful demonstrators.
I've been attacked by riot cops, and seen friends and comrades get brutally assaulted. It happens all the time and nobody outside of activist circles gives a damn.
So all the concern i've read lately about nazis copping it from counter demonstrators strikes me as quite ironic.

When police club people who have linked arms to picket something absolutely peacefully - or the mounted police do a horse-charge through a crowd of students protesting the iraq war (which happened at one of the first really crazy rallies i went to in ~2003) where are the irate pundits then?
They're silent. They don't care - most people don't. But they have been manipulated recently into passionately defending nazi's "right" to assemble and act out their little games of intimidation and other race-hatey shenanigans.
Selectively reporting violence is an easy way to do this, because it's very easy to edit the context out of these sorts of confrontation.
When a neo-nazi skinhead breaks police lines and attacks counter-demonstrators, it's not hard to make it look like an unprovoked attack, and you see that kind of thing a lot in this coverage.
The fascists are so often painted as victims.

"freedom of expression" is not equally valued or defended in public discourse (by the media, politicians, or law enforcement) so i don't take a lot of notice of what those people think of us. Ugly scenes don't do anyone any favours, politically, but honestly - if all anti-fascists practiced total non-violence all the time, the fash would kill and injure even more of us than they already do.

Hatred breed's hatred.
It does, and that's why the response to nazi provocation isn't polite or forgiving.

We do, however, support reformed nazis. We're not totally unreasonable :)
 
So you really think antifa is doing anything worthwhile to make people rethink being nazis? If anything I think they fuel the flames and give them more exposure.
 
Yeah, i do. I sincerely believe that ignoring or accepting the spread of nazi ideology is extremely dangerous.
As i said - it's not only about violence, but that's the only aspect the media and critics focus on.

I wouldn't be involved if i didn't think it was important.
 
So say someone at a right wing rally gets assaulted by one of these antifa types, you really think that's going to make them rethink their political stance or anything else? If anything I think it could help radicalize people even more. It's probably already been said but while politically antifa may be different than nazis or fascists, their modus operandi is no different. That and they oppose free speech which is pretty fascist if you ask me.
 
The point is to disrupt their ability to organise.
You can't change people's political beliefs, especially when they've already gotten to the stage of attending nazi demonstrations.
I don't think any antifascists have any illusions about changing nazis' minds - it's never been the aim because it's just not realistic.
It's a pragmatic effort to make it as difficult as possible for them to organise and grow, to build and consolidate power.

I think nazis already are radicalised - it's about as radically right wing as you can get.

Perhaps if Johnny Swastika goes home with a lump on his noggin or a scratch on his knee, his little bootboy mates will think twice about accompanying him along next time, as he has no doubt been urging them to.
 
I dunno why I'm saying it again, I feel equally resigned to being unable to change your views as you are to your right wing radicals.

It's probably because I'm stupid and stubborn. But here we go.

I find your views both appalling and totally hypocritical.

You have done a better job convincing me that people who identify with antifa are violent hypocritical anti freedom terrorists than the people you're opposed to ever could have.

I don't need to find videos of antifa people attacking people and prove they are real. I don't need to prove anything. You've quite openly and without any shame or spin repeatedly made it clear that this is a violent ideology that seeks to censor whatever political views it disagrees with.

I don't really feel like I for one need to hear anything else. Not only have you made these violent anti freedom views clear, you have also repeatedly shown that you are so little wrong with such a political stance that you can't see why you should even need to defend it or spin it to sound better. Cause to you it doesn't sound bad to begin with.

In my eyes if the types of people who identify as Antifa are even remotely as you describe it, then it's a group of domestic terrorists.

Morally no better than the KKK, Black panther, etc.

Though at least usually those groups don't pretend they are fighting fascism, that provides an additional layer of truly impressive blind extremism.

I find it disgusting. But whatever, i doubt you would expect to make any progress expressing moral outrage against someone who believes the Bible says we should kill gays or that we should Lynch black people. Likewise I expect about as much from expressing my moral outrage to you. Because to me it's all the same. Different ideology, identical phenomenon, behavior, mindset, etc.

You just done realize you're one of those people, just like how they don't realize it either when they look at you.

It's sad how well intentioned people can become so extreme and corrupted by their ever increasing radicalism. To the point they can't even see it.
 
The point is to disrupt their ability to organise.
You can't change people's political beliefs, especially when they've already gotten to the stage of attending nazi demonstrations.

Type ex nazi in youtube... There's tons of videos on people that left that movement, and none of them I've watched said it was because they were hassled by antifa. It might not be the norm but there are people that change.

I don't think any antifascists have any illusions about changing nazis' minds - it's never been the aim because it's just not realistic.
It's a pragmatic effort to make it as difficult as possible for them to organise and grow, to build and consolidate power.

They only need the internet to do that. Imo every time something goes down at a rally or protest it merely serves as free publicity for whatever group it is.

Perhaps if Johnny Swastika goes home with a lump on his noggin or a scratch on his knee, his little bootboy mates will think twice about accompanying him along next time, as he has no doubt been urging them to.

I doubt this... There's plenty of protesters nazi or not that come prepared and aren't afraid of physical confrontation. I think all of it's stupid, but I gotta admit I laugh when I see a video of some antifa asshole getting their ass handed to them because they were fucking with people.

Either way, I believe the best way to fight fascism is through education targeted for at risk youth. Most neo-nazis are recruited at a time when they're young and impressionable. I think that's a much better way than disrupting some rally. Antifa may be able to shut down some rallies, but much of the time they look just as bad if not worse than the people they're counter-protesting, and at the end of all of it the racists or fascists go home with the same views. I really can't comprehend how some people think what they're doing is noble.
 
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Time for some humor...

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Gotta suck when you not only get pegged with a stick but your antifa buddy accidentally maces you. =D
 
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