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ANTIFA attacks peaceful right wing protestors in Berkeley CA.

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You're so unbelievably condescending and patronizing with your preachy left-wing "love vs hate" ideology it borders on nauseating.

Your attitudes towards women who "dress like sluts" and how that relates to rape, are nauseating.
No other word for it.

I talk about love, because it's the opposite of hate.
Love's important to me, but either way, most fascists are just fucked up, bitter losers.
If you want to side with them, that's your decision.
I'll stick with the people working - and fighting, where necessary - for inclusive, harmonious communities.

You act hard-done-by when someone calls you out on your rape-apologist or fascist-apologist stances, but you reap what you sow, really.

Are you going to speak up and discuss the problems with Islamic extremists? Or even discuss the issues with Islam itself in regards to its views on women, homosexuals, non-muslims, and so forth? Or is that not an issue for you because they're not white.

Stop changing the subject. For someone with views on gender and race that are as frankly backwards as yours, it's a bit fucking rich accusing me of racism.
It just goes to show how defensive you are of various types of bigotry, and how weak your argument here is.
I have no time for religion, but i'm enlightened and empathetic enough to respect people's right to believe whatever they like.
Shitting on muslims who are born into a faith is simply moronic.
 
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Your attitudes towards women who "dress like sluts" and how that relates to rape, are nauseating.
No other word for it.

Not really. There are plenty of people ordinary people out there who still understand the simple point that dressing like a slut doesn't make you slut, but it does mean you're still dressed like a slut. Likewise they understand the simple point that if you dress a certain way you are going to attract attention, for better or worse, but simultaneously that doesn't justify those who sexually assault or rape. It's really not that nauseating or difficult to understand, again you just don't like the fact someone holds an conservative opinion on dress code and are doing whatever you can to blow it way out of proportion.. instead of just acknowledging that my views are different to yours.

I have no time for religion, but i'm enlightened and empathetic enough to respect people's right to believe whatever they like.
Shitting on muslims who are born into a faith is simply moronic.

Way to dodge the fucking question. So it's alright if someone of the Islamic faith holds backwards beliefs about women, homosexuals and so forth, because "it's their religion" and you're oh so fucking enlightened that they automatically become immune to outside criticism? Fantastic logic there mate. My criticism of women dressing like sluts is nauseating, but you've nothing to say about the oppressive dress code that forces women to dress so only their eyes are showing? Oh, but it's their belief.. can't touch it.

You're quite happy to dish out criticism and even sanction violence against one group of fascists, yet in the same breath give a free pass to another group simply because it's their religious beliefs. If that's not the textbook definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.

And it's not moronic to criticize someones religion. No one should be immune from questioning or criticism, especially if their practices involve violence against others.. which figures into your love vs hate ideology how exactly? If they can't stand the heat then quite simply they are not compatible with modern society and don't belong here. Especially when they react with violence to criticism.

Face it, you're the fascist here not me. You're the one who wants to shut down discussion unless it suits you and you're the one advocating violence against others when it suits you. Everyone can see that except you.
 
Wait, so are the anti 'bortionists Nazis or not? I mean, I disagree with them. And the tea baggers.

None of them include the murder or enslavement of entire peoples as part of their platform though, so no, they are not, and stop saying we libtards call everyone we disagree with Nazis. Cause those two groups are the entire American right.

Or we can take the logic that antifa just doesn't go to their rallies because they're too passe, and we do call them Nazis.
 
I think you're seeing it from a different perspective to me. See I'm not talking about ideological differences or differences in political opinions.

I'm saying the underlying human feelings and behaviors and faults are all the same.

When our grandparents fought and died in Europe and the Pacific, we were told it was to defeat fascism and all it represents.

But that doesn't matter, cause both sides felt the same anger, so really it's as much our fault as the Germans and Japanese.
 
When our grandparents fought and died in Europe and the Pacific, we were told it was to defeat fascism and all it represents.

But that doesn't matter, cause both sides felt the same anger, so really it's as much our fault as the Germans and Japanese.
No, no it isn't. My mother is from Okinawa and I was born there. She is a survivor of the Battle of Okinawa. There is no doubt in my mind that the Japanese were the bad guys. The only reason they wanted reversion back to Japan was because we hung them out to dry after war and they were living in third world conditions.

EDIT: I was in a Kinko's photocopying text for Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Day of Remembrance) and there was a German woman in there who told me that she felt compelled to apologize to all Jewish people she comes across and her father who had been in the German army was rolling his eyes and telling her in German "I don't know why you're apologizing to this fucking Jew." He didn't know that was my language in college and I understood explicitly what he said.
 
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Wait, so are the anti 'bortionists Nazis or not? I mean, I disagree with them. And the tea baggers.

None of them include the murder or enslavement of entire peoples as part of their platform though, so no, they are not, and stop saying we libtards call everyone we disagree with Nazis. Cause those two groups are the entire American right.

Or we can take the logic that antifa just doesn't go to their rallies because they're too passe, and we do call them Nazis.

Despite fear-mongering from various sections of the right, anti-fascists are not at all confused about who to campaign against.
I'm yet to hear of one of these ghoulish anti-abortion campaigners being targeted.
It's just not a part of the agenda.

Amongst all these claims of "mission creep" - that antifa will use militant tactics against everyone they disagree with - the evidence would seem to indicate that it's a false claim.

Antifascists take drastic measures because it's essential to disrupting and hopefully preventing nazi/kkk/far right violence and hate crimes.
Unlike the far right, violence is pretty uncommon in the left, especially in the USA.
We're held to a higher standard - whereas nazis can murder people, and people say "they're both as bad as each other".
To me that's insanity.

It's not hard to identify fascists, and disrupting their attempts at demonstrating and organising is just one part of anti-fascist resistance.

Speaking of which, the "supreme" master race are goose-stepping around in Shelbyville at the moment. LOL. Glad to see lots of folks turned out to give em a warm greeting.
 
"It's a demonstration against hate"

Yet, hate, is in fact what your crew exudes. It doesn't matter what you call it, you can call it love all day long, in the end, hate is what most of us see.

And let's face it, there are undoubtedly pockets of racism within our nation. The world over for that matter. There are Hispanics who hate Caucasians, Hispanics who hate African Americans, Caucasians who hate African Americans, Caucasians who hate Hispanics. In fact there are groups as the black panthers who hate the "crackers" and of course there's the KKK jackasses. But what I fail to see or hear from so called, "ANTIFAS" (interesting how this group considers themselves to be antifascist all the while engaging in just that, fascism, by way of threat, force, intimidation and the stifling of free speech/opposing viewpoints, but I digress) was the opposition to racism in ANY form. Dare I point out that the highest percentage of African American deaths are those committed by fellow African Americans? See Chicago. A very sad situation. Yes, most, not all, violence against African Americans is by fellow African Americans. And largely by way of illegal firearms. But I want to be clear here, racism just simply isn't what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and many of our politicians would have us believe: that it's 1900-1960's and everything is out of control on that front. No, as a Caucasian man in a very well integrated, large metropolitan area with outskirts & countryside within a few miles reach, I've never seen a more pleasant, peaceful community of great diversity. And it's awesome! A far cry from what y'all rally to the streets with pitchforks over with your mob rule & mob mentality. America had some dark days, but those are behind us, less that which the race baiters and race mongerers push for their individual financial gains.

You may post one dissertation after the next of emotional appeal, what you think you're doing as a group til the seams of this forum were to bust. At the end of the day, public perception is what groups like "ANTIFAS" rely upon for credibility. The reason there is no credibility there is simple. As a general rule, humans don't like hypocrisy. Humans don't like the whole "do as I say, not as I do" behavior. When you're screaming freedom of speech, be sure that you're not simultaneously, and actively shutting down another's freedom of speech. And know, that when you dress in your uniforms with your gear, while the few of you get some feeling of solidarity, the rest of the world (majority I'd say) see you as a bunch of those "bullies on the playground". Working in your own self interest. Groupthink, shall I say.

If you truly care about race relations, consider participating in any number of your local community groups who DO better bridge divides that may exist where you are. And do so peacefully. You'll garner much better reaction. A lot more of it, too.

If you truly care about freedom of speech, consider operating a TOR bridge so folks in Iran & Pakistan can reach out to the free world. These people are true victims!

Just my personal thoughts. Thanks for taking time to read &have a great day!
 
No, no it isn't. My mother is from Okinawa and I was born there. She is a survivor of the Battle of Okinawa. There is no doubt in my mind that the Japanese were the bad guys. The only reason they wanted reversion back to Japan was because we hung them out to dry after war and they were living in third world conditions.

Oh, I agree, you missed the oozing sarcasm directed at jess, who sees feelings, not ideology. In her posts (and others) the U.S. and imperial Japan would be indistinguishable, just in disagreement. Over what isn't important.
 
I see your point. The Japanese were dedicated to depopulating China and repopulating it with Japanese. We did the same to the Native Americans. By some estimates the Japanese Army made the Germans look like pikers. The higher side of the figure of was 20 million Chinese killed. They were clearing out vast tracts with anthrax. Not much different from our giving the Native Americans typhoid laced blankets.
 
@torchey Hey man. Have you read the thread? I've addressed most of these points before, and i'm not inclined to keep repeating myself too much.

If you insist on calling anti-fascists "fascists", it seems you may not have a solid understanding of what that word means.
A lot of antifascists are anarchists. We are the natural enemies of state oppression, which is why we don't trust police or the government to protect us from nazi/fascist/white supremacist violence.
There are other derogatory terms you could use to describe what antifa does, but "fascist" doesn't make any sense from a logical point of view.

As i said earlier, we will never eliminate racism. I'm no naive idealist, and i doubt many anti fascists believe that we are trying to stamp out racism.

What we are fighting is the organisation of an emboldened, organised neo-nazi movement.
Nazis aren't just a natural part of a political ecosystem - they genuinely threaten society, and cannot co-exist with the rest of democratic society. Violence - and specifically, murder - is the stock in trade of the nazi; murder and the threat of murder.
I'm not making that up, there are hundreds....well, millions of examples :\


Anyway, when it comes to disrupting organised nazi activities, we're succeeding. The charlotteville "rally" was billed "unite the right" - and it did exactly the opposite.
The alt-reich is in disarray, and judging by the demonstrations they've attempted since then, it won't be recovering any time soon.
I'm very sad that an innocent girl was killed in the process, but that's the sort of people we're opposing here: twisted, violent, terrorist scum.
If you think "punching nazis" is the same as "plowing into a crowd of genuinely peaceful demonstrators" (don't buy into the outright lie that all antifascists are violent - it's bullshit) - then i can't say much to convince you otherwise.

Non-lethal violence carried out by militant antifascists is not the moral equivalent of firing into crowds of protesters, or driving a car into a group of people.

There are countless problems in the world relating to institutionalised racism, i agree - but sometimes we gotta look after our communities before we can solve all the big picture stuff.
If that means disrupting hate rallies, it's what needs to be done.

I'm not a violent person by any means, but i support militant anti-fascism because i think it's very important to stand in the way of normalisation of fascism in any way i can.
So far, where i live (australia) i think we've done a pretty good job of demoralising the boot boys who are trying to gain a street presence by intimidating ethnic and religious groups they dislike.
We keep an eye on them, because neo-nazis are not something to be complacent about. Once they are emboldened, it's very hard to put the proverbial genie back in the bottle.
So far, a few australian nazis have been charged with plotting to blow up left wing premises, which leads me to think we're not being unreasonable in trying to shut these fuckers down.

Now, the US is a totally different story, but i'm glad to see so much vocal opposition to fascism over there. It's important.
 
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Not to disrupt the thread but I loved that news story about a month ago about that guy in Hobart who head butted the former prime minister. And he said he'd do it again depending on his level of alcohol consumption.
 
Yeah, the best bit was his comment to the press: "i'd had a skinful and i wanted to nut the cunt"

#nutthecunt was trending on twitter for the next couple of days, lol
 
By some estimates the Japanese Army made the Germans look like pikers. The higher side of the figure of was 20 million Chinese killed.

I'd also like to point out I'm a strong supporter of Ryukyan Independence. Yes, I played a Civilization clone, they have three colored circles on a white flag.

touchey said:
public perception is what groups like "ANTIFAS" rely upon for credibility. The reason there is no credibility there is simple. As a general rule, humans don't like hypocrisy. Humans don't like the whole "do as I say, not as I do" behavior.

Which is why us libtards always support our favorite prosperity gospel megachurch.

But, again, antifa has no credibility, or the media loves them, or they're terrorists, or they're afraid of guns, treat everyone who disagrees as enemy, but don't bother with anyone "mainstream"? Alt-right media eaters have a meme that'll match the local college kids I guess.
 
I'd also like to point out I'm a strong supporter of Ryukyan Independence. Yes, I played a Civilization clone, they have three colored circles on a white flag.
Wow I'm impressed (not being sarcastic). The Okinawans have had enough of the Japanese but look what's happened in Catalonia...Laid back island people don't have a good track record in the history of human civilization.

Speaking of Okinawa my best friend there was from Canberra and SJ, your quote takes me back to many enjoyable memorable nights out at the bars.
 
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Antifa isn't about winning over public opinion, it's about disrupting fascist mobilisation.
Being maligned by corporate press (and prezudent twump) is, if anything, a sign we're on the right track.
This ain't no PR campaign - it's purely voluntary, has no financial backing, and is entirely autonomous - and it's working.

Shit like that scares the big money establishment like nothing else.
 
I'm not a violent person by any means, but i support militant anti-fascism because i think it's very important to stand in the way of normalisation of fascism in any way i can.
So far, where i live (australia) i think we've done a pretty good job of demoralising the boot boys who are trying to gain a street presence by intimidating ethnic and religious groups they dislike.
We keep an eye on them, because neo-nazis are not something to be complacent about. Once they are emboldened, it's very hard to put the proverbial genie back in the bottle.
So far, a few australian nazis have been charged with plotting to blow up left wing premises, which leads me to think we're not being unreasonable in trying to shut these fuckers down.

I don't really think Antifa have had anything major to do with preventing the rise/spread of fascism in Australia though. I would extend this to the global contemporary paucity of fascism in politics. While we have seen a rise of fascism in some places, its a relatively powerless force; and this is not because antifa protests militant action have scared them away. The reality is that the majority in the various communities of western democratic communities simply do not support fascism. And, from what I can tell, it is largely because fascism is seen as a doctrine that can only be introduced using force, not because it has racist or nationalistic overtones. The majority of people want to live free of violence, and fascism is violent from the top down. In democracies, the will of the people is generally what gets things moving, either for change or not. It is not the will of the militant minority that has seen these nazi's charged with anything; it is the community that has determined that such violent threats are wrong/criminal and it is the police who have the power to lay charges.

I still simply cannot agree that violence is the way to change society. It has never changed society for the better. The majority of people see Nazi's as fucking thugs and have no support for them; but, due to the tactics of antifascist groups, many people- myself included for the most part- do not see antifa as a solution, but simply another arm of this problem that our societies have with violence. For myself, as I've mentioned, I would support antifa more than nazis in a heartbeat, but in truth I think both groups are wrong and relatively powerless besides.

Antifa isn't about winning over public opinion, it's about disrupting fascist mobilisation.

It should be about winning public opinion because that this how our society changes. No protest movement has achieved much until it mobilises the masses. It is not the vehemence of an ideology that creates change, it is the numbers who support that change. AFAICS, antifa have alienated partsof the general public, and I think this is a great loss for the movement.
 
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I dunno if I really count as the general public but it sure alienates me. If spacejunk represents it accurately I picture a bunch of militant hypocrites who think they are the law unto themselves and get to use force to disrupt or destroy whatever and whomever they, and they alone, deem to be bad for society. Which is also word for word how I imagine the people they're supposed to be fighting.

And this thread has done a great job of shifting my mental view of antifa from largely ambivalent to profoundly negative.
 
the way i see anti-fascist activism as being effective in australia is that it makes it more difficult to hold explicitly racist demonstrations, because a lot of people show up to counter-protest.
i would say they are overwhelmingly dedicated to non-violence, incidentally - i know lots of anti-fascist who are over 60 years old and definitely not (physical) fighters.

it makes the whole thing logistically difficult for the organisers when a march featuring a few dozen alt-right muppets and boneheads (neo-nazi skinheads) turns into a massive to-do with a major police operation with 500 riot cops. it increases the 'cost of admission' for everyone involved on the nazi side of things.

if, for the nazis, turning up means being filmed/photographed, blockaded, possibly arrested if they want to fight - it deters them from showing up. the more complicated holding these rallies becomes, the more difficult it is to get a permit to demonstrate in a central location, etc etc.
the more frustrated they are, the more undisciplined they are - and the more they show their true colours (explicit nazism etc - things that are often quite hidden in their public image). lots of nazis nowadays are trying to have an image of 'respectability'. neat clothing, less of the nazi skinhead look, more subtle iconography etc - but when the pressure is on, these guys (rallies are predominantly a male phenomenon) tend to drop the "smile for the cameras" act.

none of this needs even the threat of violence on the part of antifascists; it's an entirely legitimate way for anti-fascsists to exercise freedom of expression and free assembly. merely showing up to counter-demonstrate is a provocation to dogmatic race-haters.

of course, some antifascists are not shy about physical confrontation, but when you see the menacing nature of nazi rallies....well, i'm afraid it's kinda necessary.
if/when nazis can get away with hurting peaceful demonstrators, they do.

you only need to look at the videos of charlottesville (or shelbyville yesterday/today whatever) to see the sort of people that turn up to nazi demos - and in the US, especially, they tend to be armed with clubs, knives and/or firearms.
these are not the sort of folks that have a problem with killing. they don't make a secret of that.

when you're making a point of resisting that sort of stuff - which many of us are determined to do - you simply cannot always practice passive resistance.
which is not to say that all antifa actions are violent. far, far from it - but that's not what fox news would have you believe, of course.
the tabloid press loves a moral panic, a folk-devil - and "antifas" are the latest buzzword in the low-rent news cycle.

you're right though, in the sense that antifa can't take credit for the failure of shonky aus-nazi groups (UPF, TBC et al) from taking off - their petty infighting, general dysfunctionality and domestic violence convictions have played a much bigger role in the last couple of years (not naming any names) ;)

i agree that violence doesn't make society a better place, but it's important to be aware of the fact that "antifa" isn't only about violence.
there are a lot of tactics that are neither malicious nor violent, but just seek to make it more difficult for these people to mobilise.

i personally think you can't overstate the importance of simply monitoring nazi groups to maintain awareness of what they're up to, and hopefully - what they're plotting.
it's not very difficult to infiltrate their groups, especially online. i suspect a sizeable proportion of the following many of these people have on facebook (for instance) is made up of people who oppose their views, rather than share them.

liberals and centrists often urge the antifascist left to ignore nazis, but i think that's a dangerous tactic.
for people that want to actively resist fascism, it's far better to know what they're up to, because i really think it's not something to be complacent about.
these people recruit disenfranchised people that society has failed. they offer a bunch of easy answers (prejudice, scapegoating) for people's problems (blame immigrants, women/feminists, "lefties" for the fact that Joe Hatemonger can't hold down a job or a relationship etc) and nowadays especially (where secure jobs are hard to come by) that's fertile ground for the disenchanted and undereducated fringe.
what antifa is trying to prevent is a further emboldening of nazi ideas, because once this shit leaves the internet and takes to the streets, that's when the real trouble starts.
violence is never nice - i personally hate it - but in the big picture, i'm glad there are people willing to stand up and challenge organised hate.
once you get to the point that nazis feel they can do nazi shit with impunity (bashings, bombings, murders etc) it's very hard to turn that around.
the antifa approach isn't perfect, and it certainly may not be pretty, but it is genuine grassroots direct action, and i personally respect people that are prepared to act in solidarity with their communities to keep nazis isolated on the fringes of the political sphere, where they belong.
 
I dunno if I really count as the general public but it sure alienates me. If spacejunk represents it accurately I picture a bunch of militant hypocrites who think they are the law unto themselves and get to use force to disrupt or destroy whatever and whomever they, and they alone, deem to be bad for society. Which is also word for word how I imagine the people they're supposed to be fighting.

And this thread has done a great job of shifting my mental view of antifa from largely ambivalent to profoundly negative.
Your circular logic reminds me of this Saturday Night Live Hardball with Chris Matthews sketch. "Who will police the police?" I am half Jew that used to do consulting for my local Holocaust center, I am unwavering in my view that any sort of white supremacy or anything smacking of National Socialism is a tumor that has to be removed before it can actually forment into something like a legitimate government. I wonder how many people thought the people responsible for the Beer Hall Putsch would have actually become a legitimate government 10 years later? There are just certain standards of decency in 2017. People can hold whatever repellent views they want but it should be stopped before it becomes a political force.
[video]https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/hardball-homeland-security/2860831[/video]
 
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