ANTIFA attacks peaceful right wing protestors in Berkeley CA.

[alpha_centauri]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nstrators-in-berkeley/?utm_term=.485f52a53b49

Mayor of Berkeley Jesse Arreguin on Monday said it is time to confront the violent extremism on the left by treating black-clad Antifa protesters as a gang.

A large number of masked Antifa activists were seen jumping the barriers at a largely peaceful demonstration in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Civic Center Park on Sunday.

Some began attacking Trump supporters at the rally.

“I think we should classify them as a gang,” said Arreguin. “They come dressed in uniforms. They have weapons, almost like a militia and I think we need to think about that in terms of our law enforcement approach.”

Arreguin said that while he does not support the far right, it was time to draw the line on the left as well, especially on the black-clad activists who showed up in force and took over both the protests and the park, and played a part in Sunday’s violent clashes.

KPIX 5 news crews observed that most of the conservative demonstrators in the park were Trump supporters who repeatedly denounced Nazis and racists.

And while it didn’t look good, the mayor also praised Berkeley police for holding back and ceding the park to the anarchists when the group jumped the barriers.

“Black Bloc was trying to provoke the police,” said Arreguin. “I think some of the more conservative protesters had already left or had been escorted out.”

When asked what he would say to a Trump supporter who was chased down the street, the mayor replied, “It’s unacceptable. Anyone who was injured… it’s completely unacceptable and we are going to be looking at video and identifying people.”

 

[spacejunk]

I saw this article. What a load of fucking bullshit.

Antifa stopped a rally of similarly violent scumbags to those murdering nazis that descended upon charlottesville.

The message from grassroots political activists is clear: we will shut these motherfuckers down.
The streets don't belong to these cowardly haters. We will protect our communities - fascist acts of terrorism will not be tolerated, and these creeps will be chased out of town.

Props to the black bloc. Beautiful shit.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Honestly is there not some blame on these right wing people for going into the hornets nest and screaming hate filled epithets?

If I went into the middle of compton and started yelling the N word I would get my ass kicked. (actually it would probably happen before I opened my mouth, but thats besides the point)

But if they think inciting the left to violence will help their cause it's their body to be injured.

 

[spacejunk]

Imagine the outcry if leftists turned up in a park named after some right wing darling in a really conservative town in the deep south, denouncing everything it stood for (like the nazis are doing in martin luther king park in berkely) with the implicit threat of bashings and armed militias turning up.
Would the WP call those agitators "peaceful protesters"?
I doubt it.

Trump's nazi-normalising culture war is a fucking disgrace.

 

[zephyr]

The problem with situations like this is activism by the use of any sort of violence or using an organised dress code in a comparable manner to the movement they are opposing is counter productive.


While rallys that are held by groups that are pushing for a white only nation are despicable, unfortunately disrupting their presumably legal and pre arranged rally like that is ot sending a message that antifa are actually any better.

As with other incidents, badly handled and controlled by the local authorities and police. If force is to come into it, that force should keep the two apart completely and have an actual peaceful rally and anti rally.


At the end of the day, these events are about getting public opinion and attention to dupport either side.

Neither side should just think the general public are that stupid to pay much attention to what they want and marching around demanding a white only area is not going to make that happen anyway.

These antifa groups seem to have good intentions in wanting to stamp out white supremists . They need to realise though that they look ridiculous and like a mob of violent losers.

But now its being put out there that these fools are the victims and being denied their so called peaceful demonstrations by violent mobs.


So they need to change tactic somehow.

 

[spacejunk]

That's just it though - militant antifascism isn't about winning over public opinion.
It's about defending communities from violent nazis.

As tactics go, it's working brilliantly. Hand-wringing from political commentators and the Washington press gallery is irrelevant, really. Those people aren't stopping these fuckers - the "alt-right" are the darlings of the corporate press.
Their inflammatory bullshit sells.

Anti-fascist direct action is a bit of a harder sell, for middle america - but that's ok - a lot of antifascists are socialists, communists and anarchists. We ain't sellin' nothing mate

The thing about the 'dress code' is that it is a highly misunderstood.
It's got nothing to with gangs - it's about solidarity, anonimity and the idea of "touch one, touch all".
A large black bloc is a sight to behold; individuals blend into one strong, unified group.

And it does work - the fash cancelled rallies in Berkely because antifascists have (to paraphrase) "made racists afraid again".

It's what they set out to achieve, and it's working.
Did you see how violent some of the previous clashes in Berkely have been?

Since Charlottesville the facho have been vastly outnumbered (see: boston last week) and running scared. As they should be.

When neo-nazis are mobilizing on the streets, heavily armed and kicking the shit out of black kids, it's too late to win over the public, or write witty editorials.
They must be confonted, and resisted - so they don't have free reign to start killing, maiming and intimidating people with impunity.

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking these people don't have murderous intentions.
It's not only in their propaganda, or their rhetoric, or their tactics - they make no secret of it.
It's no time to be complacent or think "maybe fascist race hate won't end up in violence this time"
It always has, it always will if it is allowed to fester.

Political violence on the streets is not pretty, but sometimes - when that's where the battle is - it's necessary for people to engage in.
It's easy to forget that "antifa" are one of the only things standing in the way of these shitbag nipsters and hillbilly racists.
I hate to think what they'd be doing now if it weren't for the brave people standing up to them.

Ordinary people smashed the nazis the first time (with a little help from the Russian winter) and it's going to be up to us to do it again - especially with Ku Klux Klump in the white house.

 

[Scrofula]

Black-clad
Black-bloc
Repeats that a lot; it's also a lot different than the tone the mayor had the other night, that I posted in the Charlottesville thread:

From the Daily Californian, UC Berkeley's campus newspaper:

Sunday’s rally in Downtown Berkeley featured clashes between “alt-right” ralliers and counterprotesters, but some activists and residents still consider it to have been a largely “peaceful” and “successful” event.

The “No to Marxism in America” protest was set to take place in Berkeley on Sunday, but it was canceled last week by organizer Amber Cummings. Despite its cancellation, some ralliers still attended, inciting a response from a horde of counterprotesters. [. . . ]

Mayor Jesse Arreguín said he was “really proud of Berkeley.” According to Arreguín, a great deal of preparation from local police and fire departments went into preventing violence, including the physical separation of large groups and the implementation of rules to prohibit the use of weapons and masks. [. . .'

According to Arreguín, the rallies featured “families, children (and) people of all backgrounds that came out to stand against hate.”

Felarca added that she thought the “alt-right” and “fascist” protesters from Saturday’s rallies in San Francisco came to Berkeley on Sunday as a “last-ditch effort” when their planned events dwindled into a press conference.​

You have more violence on the median between Bar Cesar and the Cheese Board. Berkeley's always the go-to for this kind of "leftist violence" because the whole city's painted that way.

 

[spacejunk]

That's the thing that all these people (press and politicians especially) slagging off antifa seem to always miss.
It's a demonstration against hate.

I'm encouraged to hear that the Mayor knows the deal -
“families, children (and) people of all backgrounds that came out to stand against hate.”

That's exactly what it is.
Half of the shock and anger directed at militant anti-fascists is presumably due to the fact that "the left" aren't typically considered to engage in violent tactics.
"The tolerant left" and all that.
To me, that's people conflating "leftists" with "liberals" (in the american sense of the word).

I mean, the Bolsheviks were hardly pacifists - but people expect violence - and terrorism - from the far right.
Leftist violence is usually in self-defence or defence of communities. This action was most definitely the latter (with a bit of the former) - and it was incredibly successful.

The fact that shit gets has been violent only goes to show that this is no fucking joke...and the far right are not turning up to chant and march around the block. Charlottesville was a show of force and brutality.
The rallies since then have been a show of numbers. We got this

We don't go head-to-head with these people because we love violence or want a fight.
Willingness to engage in violence(when necessary) is one of many tactics, but it's the only one the mainstream press ever mentions.
Violence sells papers, gains tv ratings and web hits.


As i said earlier, that Washington Post article is rubbish.

Here is a better article, from the perspective of a comrade on the ground at Berkely, rather than a patronising critique from a journalist who apparently wasn't even in town for the rally he was reporting on...

On Berkeley: Community Resistances Show Other Worlds Are Possible


"I've been told by people on the ground that Berkeley is no longer safe. All patriots should leave now."—Kyle "Based Stickman" Chapman
A friend of mine is constantly reminding me that 2017, rather than being a relief from horror-saturated 2016, has spiraled down some rabbit hole of political absurdity and surrealism. My mother, a long-naturalized immigrant from Zimbabwe, responded to the election of Donald Trump with a panic and fear that I had never seen from her before. She was born in Zimbabwe while it was still under colonial administration: growing up in Rhodesia meant subjugation by white settlers, fear and humiliation as second class non-white people (even as native people), suppressive violence by the state. Trump reminded her of Ian Smith, she confessed to me, the Rhodesian prime minister and terroristic white nationalist (a redundancy) of her formative years. Her fear should have been a foreshadowing of the absurdities that would follow, but while I comforted her, I still dismissed her. Nine months later, I am on the street protesting against neo-Nazis.

***

I spent the morning of the would-be Berkeley rally in the downtown park where it was supposed to be held. Because the far-right tends not to care for legalities and often assembles regardless of whether or not they receive permits from a particular city, I sat in anxious wait for their arrival. I circled the park, I photographed everything that made sense to photograph. Between the Berkeley Police Department's nervous anticipatory movement in enforcing the unconstitutional martial law-adjacent limits on assembly passed days before by city council and members of the far-right live-streaming every moment of their small but emphatic assembly in counter-protest, I felt like an unmasked sitting duck --  the criminalization of face coverings was one stipulation of the protected zone within the park, a stipulation they enforced with gusto. I was unsettled with the amount of attention the media was giving to members of the far-right, clearly the stars of any show. The media thirstily (and irresponsibly) thrust microphones into any and every space hoping to pick up sound bites of their commentaries for evening news chatter and clickbait fodder.

The media's careful curation of racist diatribes made under the guise of free speech and multi-positional debate translated into red-baiting articles with headlines like the Washington Post's "Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley," the "peaceful right-wing demonstrator" in question being a young man in a Pinochet t-shirt that was attacked shortly after pepper spraying anti-fascist protestors. Journalists particularly loved Colombian-born Juan Cadavid (aka Johnny Benitez) for his Danny Vinyard good looks and charisma --  just as they not-so-secretly love all apparently trend- and norm-breaking "dapper white nationalists" --  as well as the "novelty" of finding token non-Anglo spokespeople for the white nationalist cause, a pedestal he shares with Latinos for Trump's Irma Hinojosa (they also shared a getaway vehicle).

***

The counter-protestors amassed in the numbers we did in order to prevent the increasing violence accompanying far-right assemblies both in Berkeley and across the United States over the past year, particularly in the wake of Charlottesville nearly two weeks ago. First Amendment protections of hate speech are transparent justifications made by some far-right contingents when it is glaringly apparent that others simply use these rallies as an opportunity to enact race war-posturing violence upon non-white people, and, secondarily, race traitors (like Heather Heyer). Despite the outward brutality of many members of the far-right, even more attend these rallies to enjoy state-sanctioned safe space for consequence-less hate speech: a circle jerk of unfounded ethnoracial superiority, if you will. But the First Amendment ostensibly protects one from government censure and censorship: communities mobilizing to hold speakers both individually and collectively responsible for articulating and/or aligning themselves are not the government. Anti-fascists are certainly not the government, your speech is not protected from us.

I have seen many comments to the effect that the black bloc moved like a violent gang, and that it was unfair for hundreds of anarchists to gang up on a small handful of members of the far-right. A few things here warrant clarification. Many of the ultra-violent people planning on attending the rally prior to organizer Amber Cumming's "cancellation" of the event simply did not come, and many of the ones that did were either chased off by counter-protesters earlier in the morning or were arrested by the Berkeley Police. Perhaps Mayor Jesse Arreguin's stay away calls and city response made their ethno-political militancy unsexy, especially after the embarrassing defeat of Joey Gibson's cancelled Patriot Prayer rally the day before --  Gibson was one of the thirteen people arrested in Berkeley, and Kyle Chapman, the person that called for rightist factions to unite around the anti-Marxist rally, was unable to attend per the conditions of his bail release. The energies were blunted not only by the cowardice of leadership, but by the overwhelming showing of leftists willing to use any means necessary to refuse to allow further encroachment of neo-Nazism, Confederacy commemoration and apologia, violent American patriotisms (another redundancy), and these blatantly unacceptable white nationalisms in our communities; fighting white supremacy in its totality, though (and especially in the Bay Area) is another battle altogether.

***

I did not want to be there on Sunday, but I forced myself to be. Beyond the ideals and self-assigned political obligations that ground my actions, I was scared shitless because I had no idea what we would encounter or what we would see, particularly given past far-right violence in Berkeley. And I was afraid of, once again, confronting my own intergenerational traumas of whiteness: of staring down neo-fascists and baton-happy police the same way my mother and grandmother and ancestral line stared down occupying British forces whose colonial entitlements spawned these contemporary ideologies. But, out of fear of sounding like I am declaring some kind of premature victory or sounding naïve (I am neither), there was something hopeful that came out of Berkeley.

Shortly after a coalition of counter-protestors, the one including the black bloc, arrived at the park, the Berkeley Police Department promptly hid themselves behind their riot gear and poised to shoot rounds of tear gas into the crowd. The black bloc put their hands into the air in a now rallying gesture and continuously and necessarily confrontationally yelled "put the gun down!" at the officers. Had the officers shot the tear gas at the crowd, multiple people would likely now be dead or injured: not only would the police have probably killed the frontline anarchists that their canister-loaded weapons were trained upon, but people would have also been killed or injured in the panic of a tightly packed crowd of hundreds of people trying to escape the eye and throat-burning gas. The police lowered their arms and absconded their posts in the park shortly thereafter: both masked and unmasked protestors jumped over police barricades and assembled throughout the park, a people's park.

Media commentary has forced me to understand our collective [mis]definition of violence as we constantly grapple with "well-reasoned" responses to far-right politics and urgently reinscribe the state's monopoly on legitimate forms of force to undermine the legitimacy of self-defense. Community members were implored to stay away from the spaces where fascistic forces assemble, while the media actively normalizes their politics by positioning functionally genocidal politics as "controversial" albeit legitimate opinions within a robust marketplace of ideas. Violence is the state's white supremacist militarization, like Urban Shield, in the name of "community safety"; it is my constant articulation that, as a black anarchist and member of the left more broadly, my defense of self and community (and other communities) in the face of existential threats, is not "violence." Antifa (anti-fascism), a coalescence of left politics in resistance to fascist creepings, is not violence because this kind of community self-defense cannot be violent.

As the counter-protest leaders shouted their gratitude to the black bloc and that it should be thanked and protected (Tur-Ha Ak of APTP later defended the swiftness and decisiveness with which fascists were removed from the area), I almost started to cry. Despite a wide embrace of a diversity of tactics, the bloc is perhaps the one that elicits the most outrage or disagreement because of perceptions of "outside agitator" escalation, its whiteness (how interesting is it that collective anonymity and a disagreeable political tactic is necessarily synonymous with whiteness), the space it consumes. But the bloc, and the wider anti-fascist politic within which it is anchored, represents a notion of community that is both terrifying and exhilarating: a community that supports and defends itself without the interventions and incursions of a violent carceral state the violent machinations of which we have become conditioned to accept. These community resistances, among other acts, remind me that other worlds are possible. And that possibility makes so many otherwise terrifying things worth doing.

Link

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

How do we know they were really antifa members if they had masks? How do we know this isn't some false flag operation organized by the alt-reich? Has anyone in the upper echelons of antifa officially endorsed these supposed members?

This seems like just the thing the alt-reich would organize in order to create more support for their cause, try to get people wearing black classified as 'gang members', and to make the left, the majority of which are currently peaceful, look more violent.

It is common sense for a group that has eschewed all moral and ethical high ground, like the alt-reich and their various associated hate groups, to embrace such measures.

Homemade hate the good ol' fashioned way.

 

[Scrofula]

The people in the upper echelons of antifa have midterms coming up. If there was ever one to begin with.

A good clue this was an alt-right operation is it's called "No to Marxism in America". When did that even come up recently? What was the motive for this rally?

They give everybody ample time to come out on Sunday to the famous Berkeley Protest Zone, just a small crew leftover from the cancelled event, and even if nobody showed up, the homeless there would count as the vicious MARXISTS! out to oppose their freedom-loving 'Merica ways. And then their headlines write themselves. It gets retweeted and posted here twice now.

Just like they do when making up other "antifa" shit:

Yeah, I'm reposting stuff.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

That's the thing that all these people (press and politicians especially) slagging off antifa seem to always miss.
It's a demonstration against hate.

Do you even listen to what come out of your own mouth? I'm not convinced anyone on your side of things actually does anymore.

The idea that antifa or some other feckless left-wing students are stopping nazis or whatever, is laughable. The sense of aggrandizement and self-importance is just about the only impressive thing antifa have to the ordinary person, it's reached new heights and provides for good entertainment I must say. You think you're doing some noble work but really you're just the other side of the coin to these hillbilly nazis.. neither one of you is actually capable of shifting society on your own merits because no one actually takes you seriously.

 

[spacejunk]

How do we know they were really antifa members if they had masks? How do we know this isn't some false flag operation organized by the alt-reich? Has anyone in the upper echelons of antifa officially endorsed these supposed members?

This seems like just the thing the alt-reich would organize in order to create more support for their cause, try to get people wearing black classified as 'gang members', and to make the left, the majority of which are currently peaceful, look more violent.

It is common sense for a group that has eschewed all moral and ethical high ground, like the alt-reich and their various associated hate groups, to embrace such measures.

Homemade hate the good ol' fashioned way.

Nah, antifa has active members who are more (or less) involved in organising actions and counter-demos - but besides that, there is no hierarchy.

This is a ridiculously long response - so besr with me, anyone that has the patience or inclination to read it all... .)

there are respected activists amongst the groups and meetings who may have the kind of natural leadership qualities that mean people are more inclined to listen to their opinions and plans - but antifascist groups are generally without hierarchy or leaders in the more traditional sense.

I don't think this is a stunt by the far right, for several reasons.

- i don't think enough of the fascists are smart, cunning or informed enough to fool other antifascists that they are leftists.
Obviously some are - but in these numbers? I doubt it.
My experience with these alt-right types is that most of them don't seem to have a very good grasp of leftist politics.
Most of the more militant activism i've been involved in (not necessarily antifa stuff) - there has been an understanding between other people in the group that infiltration and sabotage is entirely within the realms of possibility - but we're usually more wary of police than political opponents, though it does happen.
Still, at least from what i saw, this looked like a tight-knit bunch of anti-fascist activists.

- unless i missed something, the anti-fascist demonstrators didn't seem to do anything particularly obvious that would indicate they'd been lead astray or inflitrated by opponents or law enforcement (though the latter is likely, in one way or another).
There have been accusations of "black bloc" actions being carried out by undercover detectives in the past (some big protest in canada maybe 5 or 10 years ago, there were photos distributed online of people in the "black bloc" smashing windows or starbucks etc - whilst wearing police issue boots. This apparently helped justify a heavy-handed police response, at that rally - to stop the "anarchists" from committing acts of vandalism.
So - the motive for that seemed pretty obvious.
But what motive would anyone on the far-right have for inflating the numbers of leftist counter-demonstrators, making them look even more numerous and intimidating?
If it was an alt-right propaganda stunt, it would be an epic own-goal IMO.
We've seen a few of these lately - like the dickhead a day or two ago who claimed he was stabbed by a black guy for having a "fascist haircut". Police investigating that allegation concluded that he stabbed himself. Not too bright.

- as for PR, i think antifa have been made into a tabloid folk devil ever since trump's inauguration, when "antifa" became a household name, and seeped into american mainstream political consciousness.
There was a lot of liberal condemnation, for example, of the guy that biffed Richard Spencer in the face on trump's inaugeration day.

Since then, antifascists have received really bad press almost across the board - from Fox/Faux News' crew of fearmongering shouting heads - and many liberal media institutions - to the president (after the violent rally and murder at Charlottesville) - all making out that anti-fascist activists are unreasonably violent, that we are a gang/terrorist outfit/paid protesters (LOL) - and that (most ridiculous of all IMO) we are "just as bad as the nazis".

In this case (as opposed to the black bloc anti-globalisation protests that police apparently infiltrated in canada that i mentioned earlier) I don't see what purpose it would serve the nazis to make antifa look bigger, more dedicated and more fearsome to come up against.
One of the main points of having a black bloc - all decked out in black, faces covered - one big unified force - is to look fearsome to the people you're opposing.

Bolstering those ranks would only serve to scare some of the less deeply-committed members of the far-right/alt-right from turning up.
That is the real intention of all of this stuff - scaring and confronting nazis means that you "increase the cost of membership" for nazi groups. If people know that they risk being physically confronted when they take part in nazi rallies, some of those people will opt not to turn up.

Clan rallies didn't have this problem in the 19th century, or the 1920s - but fascists in other parts of the world have had their groups (and their ability to meet, organise, demonstrate or harass people) completely destroyed by anti-fascists making life tough for them.
Oswald Mosely is a great example - he and his BUF (British Union of Fascists) got such a pasting from anti-fascists (many of them British jews who had fought in the war, liberated some of the nazi death camps, and had seen first-hand what the reality of fascism/nazism was).
They got beaten when they had their meetings, they got beaten when they tried to sell their anti-semitic newspapers on the street and (even before the Second World War) they got the shit kicked out of them when they tried to march (with police protection) through a jewish neighbourhood in london (known as the 'Battle of Cable Street').
It made it impossible for the BUF to do any of their shady shit, so eventually they just ceased to exist.

What purpose would it serve to artificially inflate the numbers of your sworn enemies in political street battles?
I can't think of any, besides escalating the whole conflict - but after some of the previous brawls between left and far-right in Berkeley - and then Charlottesville - i don't see the right's street presence escalating. Only the anti-fascist numbers and determination.

The right has already escalated operations - the fact that they are so heavily armed seems to demonstrate this, as well as efforts to "unite the right" - bringing disparate elements of the far right together (nazis, kkk, militia groups, preppy racists etc).

I think - and this is just my opinion - that the nazis have made a really big effort to turn their online troll antics into a powerful, intimidating street presence.
Charlottesville was the culmination of all this, but it may also have been the high water mark for this agglomeration of pond scum.

A lot of the tough-talkers got arrested, and others were hospitalised.
When shit got real, the fascists were taken by surprise at how willing - and able - some "snowflakes" are in a street fight.
That's why there were pictures going around on social media of guys bleeding from the face despite their full body armour, brandishing poles with swastika flags on them, armed with guns, shields, clubs, knives.

I think these guys seriously believed that a bunch of pro-diversity, pro-LGBTI, anti-trump, anti-fascist activists would be a pushover for such big, scary, heavily armed nazis.
That proved to be a major micalculation - which is presumably what lead to the terrorist attack with the motor vehicle that killed the poor woman that was murdered in c'ville.
Though they'd never admit it, anti-fascist resistance is causing the far right to cancel their rallies, and making people reconsider how open and gung-ho they are going to be about preaching "ethnic cleansing" and all the other shit they go on about.

They're frightened of the opposition - of anti-fascists - because we're organised, we have a really strong sense of comradery and solidarity - and we are determined to shut their shit down.

So, i don't see any reason to suspect the people in the black bloc were anything other than the 'real deal' (give or take a few undercover law enforcement types).
The nazis are already on the back foot in this "war" - and anarchists are pretty indifferent to how they are percieved in the general public's opinion (not to mention the corporate press - and trump).

If anything, this level of attention and notoriety works in antifascists' favour - as it increases the perception that we are a serious force not to be fucked with - as opposed to a bunch of college kids decked out in black with masks/bandannas/balaclavas and hoods over their heads.

The right went from a "successful" KKK-esque gathering of hundreds of torch-burning idiots, to strings of cancelled demos in the space of about 2 weeks.

It would be a bit dishonest for antifa to take full responsibility for this - obviously there were many factors at play - but anti-fascist political activism is a significant part of what has spooked the nazis. I don't think they'd have any reason to dress up as "antifa" - unless the plan was to go on a destructive rampage and blame it on "the left".

 

[Scrofula]

Sorry, I keep re-writing this. I want to agree and talk support for anti-fascist groups, say yes, fascists will be fought anywhere and everywhere in this country, etc etc, violence in stopping it is self-defense, etc., I'll be the first to violate (I can't own a firearm in California . . . legally too crazy).

But I also lived there for half my life, and just know how this went down. There are groups there prepared for tear-gas, and for whom violence is totally acceptable (I used to know the head of one, went to high school with him). And believe me, they outnumber and could outmaneuver any shit some white power group could put together.

But I just know there were a half-dozen bike messenger types who showed up ready for a fight. And ten thousand civilians, as always in the area. Except, you could fit maybe a hundred in that park. But from a numbers game alone, you'd have seriously Hare Krishnas (devotees, they call themselves, they're still around, yes I knew a few), and Zen monks from Tasajara there to do free breakfasts, martyr themselves in a show of cosmic peace defending five klan members from being disemboweled by just the black homeless living in that park.

Folks forget that Oakland is nestled all up in that. And from above, Richmond. And that particular stretch along San Pablo. And all the QiGong hill folks. There's simply no need for any anti-fascist group to oppose them in the area.

Like ALL of these white power rallies, they're looking for a fight. And they picked an area that would have zero local support. And they're getting press coverage focusing on the "left" being violent, and not the absolute ridiculousness of their press conference.

And so, they win again.

 

[spacejunk]

^ have you read or heard much about the previous nazi gatherings in that park this year, scrofula?

there have been some really ugly clashes there in the last few months, with the nazis apparently having bigger numbers and more extreme violence - and claiming a 'victory' of sorts for at least one of those gatherings.

what do you make of that (assuming that it's true)?

am i correct in reading your post as saying (in effect) that the nazis wanted a fight - so by showing up to disrupt their hate circus, and giving them that fight, the nazis win (even if they are outnumbered, chased out of there, beaten etc?


contrary to what some people like to believe, i hate violence and think these 'turn up in a park and bash one another' spectacles are really depressing.

but if there are violent mobs of neo-nazis descending in a town to threaten, intimidate and assault people based on the delusions of racial superiority and other long-discredited examples of violent bigotry - what other (realistic) options are there?

anti-fascist activists use lots of methods to undermine, expose, humiliate and discredit the fash - but if your town has been under siege from these dangerous bigots, and they're coming back again - what better way of making them unwelcome than putting on a well- organised show of strength, numbers and commitment?

i personally don't like violence at all. neither did most of the men in my grandparents' generation who went off to war to fight nazi germany - but they went to waer because it was theright thing to do - sometimes aggressors can only be stopped by counter-attack.

now, that's not a good analogy - this is not the same as WWII, but i know that if my comrades are out on the streets opposing nazis, i'll be right beside them, because i believe (as they do) that such toxic, bullshit ideologies have no place in society, nor should they have any presence on the street.

so - it's always a bit crazy, but we counter-protest as an acy of solidarity - not just for our fellow activists, but even more so for our communities and the vulnerable people within them.
people of colour, LGBTI folks, muslims jews and all the other innocent people nazis will kill if they get powerful enough.

i agree its an ugly, undignified spectacle, but how else are we to stop these murderous thugs?

A good clue this was an alt-right operation is it's called "No to Marxism in America". When did that even come up recently? What was the motive for this rally?

really? you think this was a hoax?

if you read any of the alt-right's online rantings, they tend to brand all their opponents "commies" or marxists or whatever.
marxism might not be on the average american's radar, but in the murky, bizarre world of online radical (left or right) politics, you'll notice a striking increase in the out-and-out (self-described) communists, especially since last year.

twitter seems to be awash with teenage Leninists and Marx devotees - a lot of them from the USA.

as this is the world the alt right inhabits, perhaps that tis the source of the anti-marxist sentiment?

 

[Scrofula]

am i correct in reading your post as saying (in effect) that the nazis wanted a fight - so by showing up to disrupt their hate circus, and giving them that fight, the nazis win (even if they are outnumbered, chased out of there, beaten etc?

really? you think this was a hoax?

Well, I admit I still haven't recovered much from my media blackout after the inauguration, and I'm missing plenty of stories. I can easily see a Klan hangout over the hills in places like Danville, and I'm sure there have been demos in the past. Are you maybe talking about the frequent recent appearance of Berkeley protesters making noise and getting various conservative speakers cancelled? Like that little bleached shit Milo or femminoid cyborg Ann Coulter? THat kind of stuff goes back to the 1960's.

What I think is a hoax is the media narrative of all of this. I don't believe a group called "antifa" exists outside the media or a few Memorial Unions. I don't believe Milo was ever going to speak. I'm not sure Coulter was either. It's sufficient for those two to sell more books if their right-wing media apparatus shows "left-wing" thugs out to stifle their "free speech". Where were they going to speak anyway?

There are anarcho-marxist groups around for sure, and they show up to these things, it's just, an advertised inflammatory event in the Bay Area will attract thousands of people, every time, and happens with some regularity. The anarcho-marxist groups show up for the UNscheduled events. The kind that block traffic and involve police, and hang banners in hard to reach places.

So a klan rally would have a tough time in Berkeley. This was some more media-savvy right-wing group. Why pick Berkeley? Who were they going to persuade? The national press, is who. It's sufficient that they "cancel" the event in SF and move a "smaller group" over to Berkeley on a Sunday, giving everybody time to come out, including six guys with black t-shirts on their heads, who'll make a great photo op for the the right-wing media. Of course there'll be a "fight". More like a scuffle. Someone'll take a fall like a Chilean soccer player, and the story writes itself. No need for an anti-fascist partisan cell to operate.

I guess I mean that those six guys in black were just civilians. Just your typical Bay Area resident, it's not shocking. Shit, go google the Occupy Oakland riots, we didn't have just a sit-in in the park. Or really any Oakland police deal (the cities blend together, you can't tell where one ends and the other starts).

Would it make a difference if they didn't put black t-shirts on their heads? Well, we'd find out if they were part of the right-wing operation or not. You dont' need to infiltrate any groups to throw a brick or yell shit at someone.

Would it make a difference if no one showed up? Probably not. I don't know what should be done. For Berkeley, everybody comes out, maybe more than usual, to eat their organic hummus on sprouted gluten-free toasts; that's probably the best that can be done, if it costs the city too much money to host, they'll stop hosting. THat'll be a right-wing headline too.

So I mean the alt-right media machine continues to win, just like when they twisted a Milo cancellation into a "free speech" issue, cause those on the left hate it, just like they hate 'Merica. This media bit is part of a fascist surge, probably the more insidious kind.

Scene from Occupy Oakland, how my (used to be) town does it.

Klan would have a hard time.

 

[David Wooderson]

Antifa is the new KKK.

They are masked cowards and a police state's wet dream.

I hope they get terrorist designation and the roundup ensues, I am intolerant to americans going about in public with masks on.

 

[alasdairm]

...I am intolerant to americans going about in public with masks on.

but pointy white hood no problem!

alasdair

 

[Scrofula]

OK, Dave, let's pretend Antifa is a real thing, never mind all the other real groups out there. Go with the media narrative: Antifa shows up--but with masks!--to white power rallies and are ready to start a fight. Now, you may be some zen monk and carry spiders outside, you're so against violence, but I'm guessing you're a red-blooded 'Merican conservative who's willing to use force whenever necessary.

So what's wrong with this made-up Antifa? Oh, some innocent little-old man gets knocked down in a scuffle, you can't be so naive as to not realize that gets warped into "vicious assault by Leftist Thugs" in certain media.

They come out to start fights with white supremacists. Seems mostly OK to me.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

lol i shouldn't get involved in you guys's debate, but lol @ everyone in this thread.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Nah, antifa has active members who are more (or less) involved in organising actions and counter-demos - but besides that, there is no hierarchy.

That is what I was getting at. That is why most people railing against the entity of 'antifa' don't seem to even know what they are.

Antifa is the new KKK.

They are masked cowards and a police state's wet dream.

I hope they get terrorist designation and the roundup ensues, I am intolerant to americans going about in public with masks on.

They are burning things in peoples' yards while chanting weird shit, dragging people on the ground behind their pick-ups, and hanging innocents from trees? I guess Harvey has distracted us from the real dangers facing Amuhrica, thank you for bringing things back into focus (/s, David).

How do we even know the people doing violence are antifa? Could it be that dressing in black and throwing some rocks is easy, and that the organized demonization of a philosophy/ideal is where the real effort is?

The vast majority of ANTI-FASCISTS are walking around without any masks making clear their loathing for fascism and nazis. Fuck liberty, justice, and our Constitution everyone, David saw a picture of a few people wearing black, and now he wants to round up everyone wearing black or a mask, or being anti-fascist to do who knows what to them.

Why should a few anonymous people whose only concrete link to antifa is the color of the clothes they wear be the grounds for a "terrorist designation"? You want to round up some people protesting fascism, and then do what with them? What crimes have who committed? Could you provide some links to their atrocities? Do you not realize how illogical and terrifying your line of thought is? Get a grip man.

They certainly aren't the ones showing up with hundreds of guns demanding special treatment from law enforcement while chanting hate slogans.

I see many Americans referring to nazis/white supremacists as Y'all Qaeda and Vanilla ISIS.

P.S.- I have seen they are already selling Halloween candy this year. Be careful out there David, Oct. 31st isn't far away.