An Open Letter to Compulsive Liars

[naginnudej]

The impetus for this thread is simple: recently it has come to my attention that a dear friend of mine is a compulsive liar; while I have always had my suspicions about this person's capacity for truthfulness, the nature of our relationship made it next to impossible to verify the legitimacy of their statements.

In short: I trusted this person with my freedom, the most raw form of trust I can conceive of for myself. Details are not necessary for the purpose of this thread. All you need to know is that this violation of trust occurred at all levels of the relationship: business and personal. As such, I have decided to construct this thread not as a combative affront, but instead as call for self-growth for those afflicted by this disease of character.

Although I am not a compulsive liar myself, it is safe to say that during my teenage years my relationship with the truth was disastrous. Everything from white lies to top-down lies about who I am to not only others, but myself were spread at every opportunity. I am not proud of that, but I have changed my ways. As both a giver and receiver of said compulsive lying, it is my goal to be sympathetic, yet critical of the liar's paradise and the wake of destruction it leaves behind.

This thread is not a blanket decree of lying; that would be silly. Lying is inherent to the human construct and the language supported therein... to reject it would be to ignore a reality of human nature. There are many use cases when one can justify the use of a lie. Compulsive lying, however, does not posess such moral safeguards in my opinion. Here is why.

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The act of lying is intrinsically self-motivated; they are for the greater good of the individual who constructs them. With each lie one presents to the world, a motivation exists which drives the act. Some return on investment, so to speak. Perhaps it gets you out of trouble, makes your mother feel better about her weight etc...

In most cases, the immediate (and/or future) benefits of a lie outweigh the costs of being discovered in the lie, otherwise lies would not be a viable form of social currency. The negative impact on the party whose trust was breached usually coincides with the effects on the liar if discovered.

I believe this model sustains itself nicely when appended to the features of compulsive lying. Your first lie is easy, and the opportunity for future investment in lying appears worthwhile, given the benefit received during the first lie. However, as the lies compound one another, the correlation between the benefits and possible repercussions deviate from one another. Future lies offer a diminishing return on investment in relationship to the possibility of discovery. More often then not lies after the initial breach of trust just maintain the status quo. That's the logic side. Here is the personal side.

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To Your Neighboorhood CL,

It's never too late to stop lying my friend. People are more understanding than you give them credit for. It's ALWAYS easier to come clean then to be caught in the act; forgiveness comes easier to a victim when the offending party recognizes their injustice.

Truthfulness is easy. Lying is hard work, its tiring. Keeping them all straight can be nerve wracking; your mind races to find the wrong thing to say to the right person. Your house of cards is just that. What do you want to leave behind when you move on? Lies certainly hold no standing in the test of time.

A man is only his word, and a rejection of your word for a bed of lies is a violation of the your own humanity that extends to those around you. People who subscribe to your lies operate under the assumption that you are being honest and make decisions in their life about things unconnected to you based on your word. This can lead to disastrous effects if the lies are serious enough and can stem to people you don't even know.

Don't be afraid to be honest, it's easier than you think. People are here for you. If someone can't forgive you, that is their demon to battle, not yours. With every interaction is the opportunity to change your ways. The grass is greener my friend.

-Your fellow human

edit: feel free to express your own comments no matter what side of the fence you sit on. or just read, or leave. either works for me

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

That was well written, and a very articulate and fair way to deal with someone who betrayed you. I hope that if someone's unwillingness to be truthful with me landed me in a bad situation, I'd be a big enough person to face it (and them) with this sort of attitude. Telling a lot of lies just doesn't make sense, because it burns bridges.

I think a lot of compulsive liars don't mean to hurt anyone, and are not sociopaths. From what I've read, the jury is still out on the psychological causes of lying habitually with no clear benefit or reason. My three working theories, not mutually exclusive:

1) Habitual liars are short-sighted, thinking only of avoiding unpleasant conversations in the here and now, while ignoring the long-term consequences of not being upfront about the matter.

2) Habitual liars get -- or at least used to get -- a little bit of a natural high, a sense of satisfaction, from having others buy their cock-and-bull stories. So they pushed the envelope, and now substitute more fanciful statements for real facts truly out of habit, even long after growing numb to this cheap thrill. In this way they're a lot like kleptomaniacs.

3) Habitual liars are unusually wishful thinkers. They really, really want things to be true that aren't true, and that they have slim chance of ever making come true. Fooling themselves and others into believing their fabrications are something in between sympathetic magic and a consolation prize for a deep dissatisfaction or sense of failure or powerlessness.

The mindsets of people who'd compulsively lie for any or all of the 3 motivations I proposed have something big in common. The most fertile ground for them is in desperate people with few human connections that bring them any real joy, who see themselves as having little to lose. OP, ask yourself if the person who broke your trust fits this description. He or she may or may not be a monster, with little real regard for the effects their lies have on others, or the wellbeing of others in general. But he or she is in any event a sad case, I'm willing to bet, who probably deserves pity more than anger. It's sad to see a person with an ingrained habit that just drives people -- good people -- away.

*Hugs* I, too, speak as a reformed sinner. In some of the darkest and most socially isolated times of my life, when something deep inside me said "fuck everybody", I've turned to striking up conversations with strangers and acquaintances and living lives I've never really lived, for a cheap-thrill substitute for the real human connections I'd given up hope of ever having. Granted this was years ago, and I've learned my lesson and given this up, and I've come a long way socially since then. Maybe this person someday too will come around and see the error of their ways. One can only hope, for their sake and the sake of everyone who encounters them.

Now, if we're talking about someone who simply lies to people to use them for their own benefit, and you were one of their marks, that's a whole other bucket of feces. In the case of an out-and-out sociopathic user who just don't give a fuck, a nobly kind open letter may be a good start, but I'd say concrete steps to put a stop to their wake of suffering may be in order. (And no, I'm not talking about showing up at the person's house with a couple of thugs with baseball bats.)

 

[naginnudej]

Thanks for the response buddy havent seen u in awhile. good to hear from ya

My post was not intended to paint a picture of a monster or anything similar, it was simply a reflection on my hurt. Sorry if it came off that way.

On the same note I don't take any of the lies personally per se, because I recognize that someone's actions are not a reflection of the people whom they are projected upon but instead tell a tale of the projectee's sense of self-worth. But a misguided notion of self does not excuse the behavior nor does coddling the affliction as something separate from the actions empower any party involved (IMHO of course). Regardless, you are right, empathy goes a long way.

As for the three compulsive liar categories you presented (and their common ground), they pretty much fit in my model in one way or another, I was just trying to abstract it as to not dilute the message about the greater whole: I believe it is only when one has a real sense of the consequences of their actions (on others and themselves) that change from within can begin. How that can happen is tbd of course.

 

[HOP SING TONG]

3) Habitual liars are unusually wishful thinkers. They really, really want things to be true that aren't true, and that they have slim chance of ever making come true. Fooling themselves and others into believing their fabrications are something in between sympathetic magic and a consolation prize for a deep dissatisfaction or sense of failure or powerlessness.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner!

 

[Foreigner]

Seems to me that lying is a very status quo thing in our society. I know sometimes it's necessary for the greater good, but sometimes huge strides can be made if someone just steps up to the plate and tells the truth. People who are compulsive liars are just the extreme version of what everyone else is already doing.

It's also possible for people to compulsively lie because they have a split personality, and in that case it's technically not lying from their perspective because whatever dissociated world they've created seems real to them.

Unless someone's lie is personally damaging to me, I tend to not call them on it. The reason is because sometimes people lie as a coping strategy and it's something they just need to do for a period of their lives. Aside from malicious liars, IMO it's better to let liars realize their behaviour on their own, instead of calling them out about it.

 

[BlueHues]

Lying with the intent to mislead someone and take advantage of them or lying to cover up some wrong that you've done is different than lying out of insecurity or "telling stories"......

I guess everyone is guilty of bragging a little bit or throwing in details about themselves in conversation designed to impress people, even if we're not aware of doing it....I guess the next level is just "making shit up"....

I think a lot of people go through a "story-telling" phase as teenagers, born out the the social pressure to fit in....but it seems like most people outgrow this phase when they realize you're more judged on who you are as a person rather than all the cool things you've done....People like people who can be themselves, it makes them feel at ease and feel like they can be themselves too....Telling the truth, besides being the right thing to do seems to me to be a better "strategy" to get ahead in life, I'd never wanna have to feel like my success was based on lie....

Personally, I try to avoid going too much into depth about my life, because basically every small-talk type question you could ask me about my life will just throw up red flags and inevitably lead to more questions I just can't answer, so if anything, I leave out details or change things enough to avoid having to really explain myself....I wish it wasn't that way, but I kind of don't have a choice when in a work-type situation or a casual social situation with acquaintances I don't know too well....I have a whole ton of true stories about my life that aren't nearly as "cool" in my 30s as they were in my teens and 20s.....

Like foreigner, I don't call people out on their lies, I listen to them just dig themselves deeper while knowing the whole time that they're completely full of shit....There's tons of guys out there that just love to talk your ear off about all the women they banged, all the money they made etc etc, it's crazy! I just smile and nod!

I've been working a lot of temp jobs for different temp agencies the last few months and I work with different strangers all the time.....

Just yesterday, I was working for a company installing folding bleachers into a new junior high gymnasium being built, the temp agency sent me and another guy there to help with the project, and ALL day long this guy was just lying his ass off!....I got a creepy vibe from him from the get go.....He was telling me really obvious bullshit stories, but what disturbed me was that he kept bringing up how he hated child molesters and how he was living in a halfway house "full of child molesters and fags!".....He kept slipping that shit in there, and I just kept working and listening to him all day!

I read between the lines and kind of figured this guy must have been a sex offender, just the things he mentioned and the look in his eyes....It was like he was afraid that everyone could see through him!

I ended up feeling bad for the guy really, and I guess I at least try to relate to everyone.....I've used drugs for years, I have a couple felony drug charges and shitty credit, so basically, I can't get even get through the initial screening to get hired for any major company or corporation and it makes me feel like a loser sometimes, I tend to move around a lot, and with a clean record and good credit you can all kinds of jobs doing weird shit you've never considered....

Anyway I kept looking at this guy and thinking of how horrible it must be to be a sex-offender(if he was), it's literally like you can NEVER put the past behind you! Although hurting children is one of the worst things anyone could possibly do, I think if people can recover from it and make amends they should at least have some chance to redeem themselves....or are there some things that people should just have to carry until the day they die? And what exactly is "unforgiveable"? This is the shit I was thinking about..

Anyway I have no idea if this guy was a sex-offender but he was definitely a compulsive liar, he was a horrible worker too, slow, unable to problem solve, I basically did half his work for him because I felt bad....Anyway, I'm veering off course and getting controversial...oh well

 

[naginnudej]

Seems to me that lying is a very status quo thing in our society. I know sometimes it's necessary for the greater good, but sometimes huge strides can be made if someone just steps up to the plate and tells the truth. People who are compulsive liars are just the extreme version of what everyone else is already doing.

It's also possible for people to compulsively lie because they have a split personality, and in that case it's technically not lying from their perspective because whatever dissociated world they've created seems real to them.

Unless someone's lie is personally damaging to me, I tend to not call them on it. The reason is because sometimes people lie as a coping strategy and it's something they just need to do for a period of their lives. Aside from malicious liars, IMO it's better to let liars realize their behaviour on their own, instead of calling them out about it.

Yea, my original post was not broad enough... I see that now. All good points thanks for adding.

As for confrontation it's probably situation-dependent. Could go both ways IMO. In my situation it was a necessary evil, simply because we had reached a stopgap and there was no other option. Once I uncovered the truth I needed to serve up an explanation as to why I was cutting ties with the person.

I think a lot of people go through a "story-telling" phase as teenagers, born out the the social pressure to fit in....but it seems like most people outgrow this phase when they realize you're more judged on who you are as a person rather than all the cool things you've done....People like people who can be themselves, it makes them feel at ease and feel like they can be themselves too....Telling the truth, besides being the right thing to do seems to me to be a better "strategy" to get ahead in life, I'd never wanna have to feel like my success was based on lie....

VERY well said thank you for shedding some light on that.

Interesting story btw. You definitely handled it well. I've been in a few similar situations as well; just live and let live... not much else you can do.

 

[RedRum OG]

I feel like a true "compulsive liar" doesn't lie to benefit themselves. They don't really plan it out as some grand scheme, it just sort of happens, it's just like a ......compulsion

See what I did thar

 

[pmoseman]

I firmly believe if you have to lie to somebody, the next thing you should be doing is looking for a blunt object, about 3 feet long, or some pointy-stabby thing. If you get caught, someone will immediately feel redeemed by chopping your head off. However, people do not seem to, directly, respect honesty. They respect intelligence; they respect loyalty when they are considered responsible for your success or when you are held responsible for their failure.
You have to put effort into digging up the truth and if you can skip all that shit by lying? People will beg you to do it again. It is easy to get away with and difficult to stop. About all you can do is figure out why you do it, and control your own behavior.

 

[Lost Ego]

Let me make a distinction here. A habitual liar does so because they have gotten used to it. A compulsive liar does so out of compulsion, not intentionally, more often than not this is due to brain chemistry and is not their fault. It's sort of like ocd...

 

[omnipresenthuman]

OK, I get where the OP is coming from, but the question always is...honestly, depending on so-and-so's mind-state, what is better to do, offer a white lie and bypass an issue which YOU KNOW shouldn't actually be an issue (you can tie this thought process in with how there's 'God's' law, and there's man-made law, and, clearly, man made laws and thoughts produced via society are going to be inherently flawed SINCE MAN MADE THEM UP HIMSELF), or tell the truth, when you know for a fact that the truth isn't going to be helping anyone in a positive way?

These are my examples:

Omar Little in 'The Wire' - he told his grandmother that he worked at the airport cafeteria for low wages instead of telling her that he robbed drug dealers for a living. Yeah, Omar lied to his grandma, but, I mean, if he told his grandma what he was really doing, do you think she could've really stopped him from doing what he'd been doing for years at that point, and successfully so? And, further, is that shock really necessary to burden the grandma with? Omar was deep down the path of perdition already - why bring her down with him?

A gay kid, male or female, hiding their true sexual orientation from conservative religious parents who wouldn't think twice of disowning their flesh and blood kid just because they turned out to be gay - are you really suggesting that gay kids should just open up regardless of what they know/expect their parents to do to them? Fuck it if they cover up their sexuality from their parents - it's not like the parents are going to be playing a part in the kid's relationships once the kid gets into a bedroom with their lover by themselves. Is it really worth it to lose your family over coming out?

With the first example, I think Omar was justified in lying to his grandma - Omar was living on his own and if anyone's watched the Wire, we know she couldn't have changed his ways, in all likelihood.

With the second example, I really don't have an answer. If it was me and I had something to hide, I don't know what I'd do.

All I'm saying...yes, obviously, the truth is preferable, but have you ever heard of 'truthfulness' as it's talked about in Jainism? Basically, sometimes, the 'truth' needs to be adapted for various people...in other words, some people just can't handle the truth in its purest form. (I also can't help but mention the end of Godfather I when Michael Corleone lies to his wife, just to get her nose out of his dirty business - classic).

Do kids really need to be exposed to the full gamut of horrors that occurred in the Holocaust when in elementary school, even though it's the truth and makes up the largest, in terms of importance, world historical event of the last century? I personally do not think so.