Amphetamine Neurotoxicity in Low (ADHD) Doses or The Bitch is Back: Ricaurte Returns

[protovack]

The only strong contention that I have is whether or not reductions in striatal DAT and DA/DOPAC concentrations actually represent profound dopaminergic neurotoxicity. Ricaurte, et al certainly equate these molecular parameters with permanent dopaminergic nerve terminal damage, but that has not yet been adequately shown.

Precisely.

significant reductions in striatal
dopamine concentration, the density of [3H]WIN35,428labeled
DAT sites, the amount of DAT
protein and the number of [3H]DTBZlabeled
VMAT2 sites; quantitative autoradiographic
studies showed that the regional density of [125I]RTI121labeled
DAT sites was comparably
reduced (Fig. 1). A closer examination of regional monoamine data revealed lasting
dopaminergic deficits in the caudate nucleus and putamen of comparable magnitude (44 47
% depletions), while smaller, but significant, deficits (approximately 30 %) were also evident in the nucleus accumbens (Fig. 2a)

The thing is we have no idea if any of this is permanent, or if it even represents "damage."

 

[Middleway]

So no more dropping a couple of dexies and going jogging then? Damn, It feels so good

 

[Riemann Zeta]

^ True that. I don't think that exercise raises your core temperature that much, as long as you ensure that you are extremely well hydrated (more so than if you were jogging without the amphetamine) and sweat a lot. Also, there is a question of dose, I think taking ~30mg dexamphetamine wouldn't be all that bad, but taking >100mg might be a little dangerous.

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

it seems to me dehydration would be the major issue as what recording of body temperature have been shown in a setting where an individual can be hydrated sufficiently

...and then is hyperthermia the only real actual setting of "true neurotoxicity"

also how much of a role is layed by oxidation pathways and thus what role can proper anti-oxidants play in countering such?

the normal aging "pre"=Parkinson's comparison is a good one as aging via largely i assume oxidation pathways is what causes the reduction in DA (as well as other NTs) functioning

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

addressing Ricaute and his error, there are tons of error in research that we just never see revealed

he ordered from a viable supplier and made the assumption he received the material purchased...sure he could have gone the extra step to confirm it, but this is not the norm in many settings

the team managed to womehow identify and make known their error so kudos for that

now in that he makes conclusions that may be a bit far reaching for some...well those are his conslusions and the raw data is the raw data and other experrts still have the right and ability to take from his raw data and make their own conclusions so it does not invalidate the study's worth or the data contained therein which is valuable to the scientific community

one error that he is really not even perhaps to be blamed for as it was more an error by the chem supply house shoudl not invalidate his studies and the data therein

that he makes conclusions and remarks some feel are too far reaching or even somewhat show a biased intent also should not invalidate the worth and core content of the study

 

[s666x]

This is true of MDMA as well. Temperature is very very important ( for reasons I don't understand ) in neurotoxicity.

Temperature is important because changes in temperature can lead to the decomposition of cells. When you have a fever, your immune system is heating up your body to kill the virus/bacteria and you need more rest and water as a result so that your body can repair itself.

 

[atrollappears]

Temperature is important because changes in temperature can lead to the decomposition of cells. When you have a fever, your immune system is heating up your body to kill the virus/bacteria and you need more rest and water as a result so that your body can repair itself.

In amphetamine neurotoxicity I believe it has more to do with high temperatures inactivating certain antioxidant enzymes, IIRC

And by the way, I don't buy that this applies to humans, at least to the same extent. The incidence of parkinson's in amphetamine users would be much, much higher than it is. Also, I bet that there would be pretty obvious deficits in recreational amphetamine users, while, frankly, there are not.

 

[s666x]

In amphetamine neurotoxicity I believe it has more to do with high temperatures inactivating certain antioxidant enzymes, IIRC

And by the way, I don't buy that this applies to humans, at least to the same extent. The incidence of parkinson's in amphetamine users would be much, much higher than it is. Also, I bet that there would be pretty obvious deficits in recreational amphetamine users, while, frankly, there are not.

I was definitely oversimplifying, obviously if heat straight up decomposed your cells no one would be able to be a serious athlete or live in the desert. high body Temperature definitely derives its destructive power from the effect it has on your biochemistry at a sub-cellular level (i.e. enzyme or lipid reactions and the like). And honestly I don't think heat has that powerful of an effect. tons of people do hard work in sweltering heat all day and most of them are far from brain dead

 

[weekend addiction]

I doubt low doses of amp would have a drastic permanent effect. But I keep my dose low just in case. I've not increased my dose since I started therapy and won't unless I really need to. There has been no decrease in effect on concentration but the improved mood and energy are gone. I don't take amps for mood or energy but to concentrate. Because of the potential for danger I think people should really evaluate the purpose of their dosing before they increase their dose. Eventually your going to hit a wall with the mood and energy you can't just keep taking more speed and expect your body will keeping pumping out those chemicals.

 

[atrollappears]

I think people should really evaluate the purpose of their dosing before they increase their dose.

This is exactly it. Clearly amphetamines can be of great long-term benefit, as seen with patients with ADHD. On the other hand, it seems that once they take the form of powdered/crystalized street drugs, they become destructive and addictive. What's the difference? Well, how many people do you see railing/banging/smoking amph so they can stay calm, fidget less, or be organized?