Am I dependent?

[Foreigner]

I'm posting this in P&S because I think, at its core, this is a philosophical/spiritual issue and I'd like our resident philosophers (and psychedelic users) to weight in on it.

I look at the research on PDs in anthropology and it seems like humans have always used them, all over the world. There are even theories that human evolution is tied PD use. But then there is the modern conflicting views that they can be harmful, there shouldn't be long term use, and we of course hear stories from the dark side about abuse.

I find that psychedelics really open my world and allow me to engage in a different kind of learning that wouldn't be otherwise possible without that perspective shift. I go through periods where I don't use them, and then periods when I am using them regularly. I feel that, in general, my life is better with PDs than without. In the complete and prolonged absence of them, I feel that I become more concrete and less imaginative. When I do use them, life seems magical and other kinds of integration can happen.

The honest overview of my life at this point is that PDs will always be in my life, in some form of another, weaving in and out in varying intervals.

My question is: in greater arc of my life, would you define this as a dependency, or simply using a mind expanding tool to learn and grow? If it is a dependency, is there such a thing as a healthy dependency? Can we call someone dependent if the end result is generally good?

Then I think of this at another level. We often label addiction as an illness - and perhaps it is in one respect - but is there the possibility that some part of a person becomes addicted because it contains a dilemma that is necessary for their personal growth?

An even more controversial question might be, can there be people for whom addiction itself is needed, to exercise something inside themselves. In other words, is there a dependency or addiction that seems negative at that time, but whose net effect is highly beneficial to the person? (This question applies to all drugs.)

Whether positive or negative, could dependency be something we throw ourselves into for a greater learning curve?

 

[malakaix]

I suppose only you can determine if it's a dependency or not; i know that's the obvious answer here but your looking for perspective so in my personal experience.. i believe if the dependency is there then perhaps the person is working through issues within them self, from an outside perspective it may just be seen as addiction.. but for that person it might be an entirely different journey altogether.

There's always that fine line with psychedelics though, on one hand people will argue that their use is within the realm of personal growth and the expanding of consciousness of which i firmly believe is beneficial, but there's also the other side where i feel people become 'stuck' in that mind-frame and it becomes justification for their use; but this is black and white thinking.. with psychedelics the whole spectrum of thought is covered so you can essentially justify anything and it's very convincing. Which is why i usually have no opinion.. because only that person can come to their own conclusion.

Ive been on both sides of the fence with psychedelics, three years of heavy use followed by a couple of years of moderate use and then eventually stopping altogether. I came to the decision that i found what i was looking for and felt no further reason to use them, and in the time since i've spent time integrating that information back into my perspective of reality and my place in it.

Yeah it's controversial, but i think addiction as much as it may be used as an escape actually put's someone in hard contact with them-self.. the shadow self is forced to the surface and you become painfully aware of your "imagined" flaws and fears as a human being. Perhaps the greatest realization been that you have a 'choice' and that is the freedom within you.

Some of the most in-tune people i've ever met have at one stage or another in there life been addicted to a substance.

 

[hawaii]

There is a electronic music producer called Ricardo Villalobos who did an album last year called "Dependent And Happy".
I heard and interview with him where he says that you must depend on something or someone to be happy and that is opposed to freedom which is often a lonesome state.

I have to say that his vision was a bit of a "shocking revelation" to me when I heard for the first time.
I always thought to be immune and free from others or something but with the passing of time I think he's right in the end.

Our first dependency comes from the mother when we are kids and then you find someone else who replaces your mother's role.

 

[Renz Envy]

Opening your mind without the use of PD is safer.

 

[omnipresenthuman]

In Buddhism, simply being existent in this current material realm implies that we are dependent in a broad, yet fundamental, sense of the term - as material embodiments of spirit (or whatever you want to call it, I'm not a stickler for definitions), we are constantly engaging in a sort of 'dependent arising' - lives are like ocean waves, and as they (our lives) rise and fall, we depend on our material bodies and minds for sustainability, but, inevitably, these lives will wipe out, no matter what we do. Then, it starts over again, with a new life, a new dimensional reality, possibly - however, many people are born again simply as humans, and that's not even a bad thing, being a human is, overall, considered a neutral state, it certainly isn't the highest reality, but it isn't anywhere near the level of, say, being a plant or a simple-consciousness embodying animal, i.e., a bird or a fish. The only way to reach enlightenment, which, in all candor, is the only ultimate reason or point we have to our lives as human beings with self-reflective consciences able to determine what is right and wrong, and with the ability, under intense mental exercises and meditation practices, to actually break through the mental barrier or rationality which all humans preemptively employ in going about normative daily activities, is to 'free' ourselves from this dependent arising which we habitually are set into life after life via taking on material, or immaterial, bodies via consciousness.

With all that being said, I do have to agree with the OP that, having come out of plentiful drug use on my own terms fairly recently, just a few months ago, normal sobriety does seem to contain a rigidity which is disappointing in comparison to states of dependent intoxication or elevation which frequently do carry one's level of being seemingly way above or beyond everyday reality. I would say, though, I have noticed, in maintaining a full sobriety, absent of even caffeine and of course alcohol, everything, that there is a sort of very hard to define quietness which is constantly there with me and which is very interesting - I think, given a few more months, maybe years, of being sober, I will be able to investigate it further - I believe that quietness which I sense in the back or the forward most parts of my mind is just the minutest base aspect of a sense of independence from existence - then again, I'm not sure, I might be completely wrong.

All I know is that, if you are actually imbibing or using any substances which are external to your body, then that is merely the beginning, or, perhaps, even prior to the beginning, of becoming independent, because the path to becoming free of dependence is solely internalized, from what I've extensively read and heard about concerning Eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism. It all lies within you, you already have all the necessary tools - external matter is not going to help, even though it could very easily seem that way, trust me, I've been there, I wish it was that easy. Ironically, I already knew about this back in the days when I just smoked pot and that was it - I could have stopped there, but I went down the material rabbit-hole further than I usually like to admit. Nothing is out 'there' except more excruciating forms of dependence. Dependence on the material body is already painful enough, with all the pitfalls and hellish realities you have to endure as a matter of course.

Personally, I still feel dependent as hell even though I'm sober. Some things never change.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

There's always that fine line with psychedelics though, on one hand people will argue that their use is within the realm of personal growth and the expanding of consciousness of which i firmly believe is beneficial, but there's also the other side where i feel people become 'stuck' in that mind-frame and it becomes justification for their use; but this is black and white thinking.. with psychedelics the whole spectrum of thought is covered so you can essentially justify anything and it's very convincing. Which is why i usually have no opinion.. because only that person can come to their own conclusion.

Yeah I struggle with this whole thing as well sometimes, but like you said I can't really know for sure where beneficial use stops and where pernicious use begins, so I'm thinking of contenting myself with merely reminding them to integrate, integrate, integrate. The only way I could see judgment being justified is if we took the stance that the only acceptable use would be in the manner of mainstream psychiatry, with greater functionality in society/our personal lives, and working out mental/behavioral pathologies. So, the mind freeing/hippieish aspects of the experience, to put it broadly, would be undesirable side-effects. And I'm unwilling to take such a conservative view of things, since I see recreational use as justified, and am a poorly socialized individual myself.

An even more controversial question might be, can there be people for whom addiction itself is needed, to exercise something inside themselves. In other words, is there a dependency or addiction that seems negative at that time, but whose net effect is highly beneficial to the person? (This question applies to all drugs.)

As Ben Franklin put it, "There are no gains without pains." On the other hand, there's really no way to predict whether you'll turn out for the better, or be unable to quit until you're well into middle age and have nothing to show for it (or die pointlessly by OD/complications). The most sound statement I can think of is that continuing in addiction is just going to help you avoid dealing with the problems you need to deal with, since you can just focus on your little cycle of do drugs->do stuff to afford more drugs->do drugs->do stuff to afford more drugs->repeat.

I think it might have been in here someone recently quoted this, or maybe it was somewhere else, but feel it's appropriate:

"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert

 

[RobotRipping]

My question is: in greater arc of my life, would you define this as a dependency, or simply using a mind expanding tool to learn and grow? If it is a dependency, is there such a thing as a healthy dependency? Can we call someone dependent if the end result is generally good?

i assume you don't mean dependent by definition, as in being dependent on opiates or something. I would not call psychedelic use a dependency though dissociatives kind of blur that line between dependency and mind exploration. I've been using psychedelics for years and honestly, i just get bored of the experience after a while. Then i take a break for 6 months to a year and go back to using psychedelics. At some point i think i'll be completely done with psychedelics.

Then I think of this at another level. We often label addiction as an illness - and perhaps it is in one respect - but is there the possibility that some part of a person becomes addicted because it contains a dilemma that is necessary for their personal growth?

An even more controversial question might be, can there be people for whom addiction itself is needed, to exercise something inside themselves. In other words, is there a dependency or addiction that seems negative at that time, but whose net effect is highly beneficial to the person? (This question applies to all drugs.)

if you believe in predeterminism this would sound right. I think either way, there is something special about a drug addict that makes them what they are. Some prosper from this difference and others die. I think i needed to become an addict, otherwise i just would keep wondering about certain drugs, going through the highs and lows so extreme changes you as a person. It makes you mentally stronger IMO and more apt to deal with life than others. Compare a person who has used drugs for years and someone who has never touched a drug and i think there is a striking difference, even more so when the person has overcome an addiction or maintains one successfully.

Whether positive or negative, could dependency be something we throw ourselves into for a greater learning curve?

i definitely think so based on my experiences, dependency has taught me a lot of things about myself, my strength, my individuality and my identity itself. It's also caused a shit load of other problems too, there's no denying that, but after it's all said and done, i experienced something significant that a non-drug user will never experience. And life for myself is about experiencing things.

 

[BlueHues]

What is the "goal" of life supposed to be? Happiness? What is happiness? Is it experiencing pleasure, or is it a feeling of deep satisfaction with one's life?

I believe you can learn a lot about yourself and the world through the most common, simple interactions and experiences if you're open to learning from them...I think psychedelic drugs can make it easier to see the inter-connectedness of everything, which I believe is the ultimate truth. It sounds very simple to say it...."Everything in the universe is interconnected", it's kind of a cliché New Age/spiritual types like to throw around...but when you actually perceive that all of creation from the smallest molecule to the most complex organisms are all part of an endless cycle of creation and destruction, it's really something words can do justice to....It can be depressing to think how insignificant our lives are but it can be very inspiring and oddly comforting at the same time....

Is there any point to so-called "enlightenment"? I really don't know...

Is anything really %100 bad, or is everything just "the way it is"? I guess only you really know what's "good or bad" for you.....According to my beliefs, as long as something isn't causing anyone to suffer, it can't be bad! Of course, suffering is not always a bad thing if there's a reason for it....like if it serves a purpose in the long run

If you believe in Yin, yang....there's always gonna be a balance of negative and positive energy, that's what propels existence...If it goes too far in either direction, nature corrects itself.....It's way to confusing to go into, but I'm sure you guys know what I'm trying to get at!

 

[Magickduck]

yes and I believe sometimes this can create negative cycles... i need psychedelics to 'fix' this confusion which provides a temporary moment of clarity but thus end up causing more confusion and this can lead directly to insanity... but i believe (at least i hope so) that it is temporary and eventually I will recover..

though its all a learning experiance and once i integrate this all I will be a genius... if not, i'll be a madman.... or maybe a combination of both, hahah.

there's that quote "once you get the message, hang up the phone"... but hell, i couldn't help myself from sticking around for the massage.

 

[Magickduck]

I think psychedelic drugs can make it easier to see the inter-connectedness of everything, which I believe is the ultimate truth. It sounds very simple to say it...."Everything in the universe is interconnected"

yes but these connections are neverending and infite down the fractal, and do not nessicarily always mean something. sometimes they do, and this can be a portal into telepathy and such, but othertimes they can lead to delusion.

 

[TheAppleCore]

My question is: in greater arc of my life, would you define this as a dependency, or simply using a mind expanding tool to learn and grow? If it is a dependency, is there such a thing as a healthy dependency? Can we call someone dependent if the end result is generally good?

dependent. adjective. 1. relying on someone or something else for aid, support, etc.

Sure. Sounds like we both have a psychedelic dependency to me. I'm dependent on psychedelics in the same respect that I'm dependent on having a solid well-rounded education. I'm not going to die of ignorance or illiteracy (not immediately anyway), but it sure helps to be able to read and write, and do basic math, etc.

An even more controversial question might be, can there be people for whom addiction itself is needed, to exercise something inside themselves. In other words, is there a dependency or addiction that seems negative at that time, but whose net effect is highly beneficial to the person? (This question applies to all drugs.)

Yes. In fact, I believe that everything is ultimately positive. Even your own death is just a necessary and healthy part of the life cycle.