ALTERNATIVE THEORIES V: The Build-a-bear Workshop

[freddy47]

Which was it? Did it hit the deck or the Port Quarter. The photo shows the Port Quarter.

It hit both since the plane was in a dive. It hit the deck on the port quarter side of the ship.

WWII bombs were impact detonated, and that is unusual that it would hit something without exploding.

The bomb was not released and therefore not armed properly so they would not have exploded normally.

Well you may have enjoyed your little victory over my reading mistake, but it doesn't mean shit for you unfortunately. The plane was carrying a bomb and crashed into the side of the ship and I'd wager the bomb was responsible for doing the work.

Nah in this case the plane did most of the work man sorry but your not gonna slip away on this one.

 

[MyFinalRest]

Japanese Kamikaze hits the ship at 1729 hrs on 6 January 1945, during the Lingayen Gulf operation. The impact, on the main deck by the after gun turret, with the resulting explosion and fire, caused extensive damage and casualties.

How can you tell from a photo like that? It looks like the bomb fucking blew up. The above description didn't mention anything about pentrating like a bunker buster and then detonating. WWII bombs weren't very sophisticated and when they hit something, they blew up unless they were a dud.

The plane was carrying a bomb and that is what did the pentrating work. Had the
plane made it through first and then the bomb, then why weren't more decks pentrated?

P.S. I'm not sure, but a Port Quarter could aply to the deck or the side? I don't know.

 

[freddy47]

I did misread that, but still, I cannot believe that it penetrated without exploding. When a bomb hits dirt it explodes.

If the plane pentrated first an then the bomb went off, why is it the extent of the bomb damage unacknowledged? I made have made a slight error, but I'm still correct.

The bomb damage is unacknowledged? Hows that?

It's wikipedia, I could edit the page to say "after" instead of "before."

I also found it odd that it says "penetrated two decks" when it clearly hit the side of the ship.

Again the plane is clearly in a dive. It hit in a weird way that damaged the port quarter but as you can see from the angle it hit the deck as well.

USS Columbia (CL 56) Japanese Kamikaze hits the ship at 1729 hrs on 6 January 1945, during the Lingayen Gulf operation. The impact, on the main deck by the after gun turret, with the resulting explosion and fire, caused extensive damage and casualties. Photo taken from USS California (BB-44). Courtesy of John R. Henry, 1973.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/056/04056.htm

 

[freddy47]

Japanese Kamikaze hits the ship at 1729 hrs on 6 January 1945, during the Lingayen Gulf operation. The impact, on the main deck by the after gun turret, with the resulting explosion and fire, caused extensive damage and casualties.

How can you tell from a photo like that? It looks like the bomb fucking blew up. The above description didn't mention anything about pentrating like a bunker buster and then detonating. WWII bombs weren't very sophisticated and when they hit something, they blew up unless they were a dud.

The plane was carrying a bomb and that is what did the pentrating work. Had the plane made it through first and then the bomb, then why weren't more decks pentrated?

It looks to me like both the plane and the bomb exploded. You expect me to believe that the bomb exploded first and then the plane penetrated the two decks? How would that work? There wouldn't have been much left of the plane to penetrate two decks. The above description didn't have to mention it being anything like a bunker buster.

Kamikaze pilots did not "drop' their bombs prior to impact meaning they didn't arm them properly. They hit the ship with the bomb still attached meaning the resulting explosion from the plane would set off the bomb. You get my meaning?

As for the plane not managing to penetrate more decks. Well the ship was armored man. Also whats was left of the plane would have been destroyed by the resulting bomb explosion so it would no longer be able to penetrate more decks.

 

[MyFinalRest]

the issue for me, with these theories you keep repeating is how, in one post there were no planes, in another there were planes, but only with lasers attached to the nose. then in another, there were planes that crashed into the buildings, but the buildings had small nuclear bombs planted in them, to be detonated as the planes collided.

dont you want to be free from the fear man?

I never said anything about a laser attached to the nose. Link me to that one. I've said there were no planes, only an initial blast of conventional explosives causing an "airplane shaped hole" and quite possibly some nuclear devices to finish off the rest.
You're just being an asshole, oh great man of infinite spirituality.

What's there to fear? I'm familiar with aircraft, and I know that they are delicate. Even if they are heavy, they are still very delicate.

Are you saying I shouldn't fear the people who really did do 9/11 and fear those angry Muslims Arabs instead?

 

[MyFinalRest]

It looks to me like both the plane and the bomb exploded. You expect me to believe that the bomb exploded first and then the plane penetrated the two decks? How would that work? There wouldn't have been much left of the plane to penetrate two decks. The above description didn't have to mention it being anything like a bunker buster.

Kamikaze pilots did not "drop' their bombs prior to impact meaning they didn't arm them properly. They hit the ship with the bomb still attached meaning the resulting explosion from the plane would set off the bomb. You get my meaning?

I don't know much about WWII bombs, but when they collided with something they blew up. You would be wise not carelessly drop one! I don't think they could "arm" them as you say, but provide a link if you find out otherwise. I think they just had the ability to realease them. Primitive bombs were always "armed" with impact detonators. You couldn't count on a petrofuel explosion in open space to impact anything/ It doesn't generate much pressure.

As to penetrating two decks, the bomb went off also at the moment of collision and pentrated the two decks and more.

 

[MyFinalRest]

There is no other type of bomb a Kamikaze would carry other than live impacted detonated bombs. These things would go off as soon as the plane collided because they too would be hitting at the same time. The bomb did the work. Bombs are designed to penetrate and damge targets. Apparently there was no further pentration on the Jan. 6th Kamikaze on the USS Columbia and I find that hard to believe that the plane did all the penetrative work and the bomb did none.

Seriously, If you can't film an airplane cleaving steel columns and post it, I'm not interested in this "beating around the bush" bullshit. I want to see an airplane shred through steel columns and spandrels and steel reinforced concrete in a non-911 undoctored video. Otherwise, I'm not going to be convinced.

 

[MyFinalRest]

^what a load of bullshit. I don't know of any 911 truther who went on a violent rampage. I do know lots of proudly serving Military people who have rampaged Iraq and Afghanistan and left a lot of bitterness. If Middle Easterners didn't hate America then, they surely do now! But, they lack the overall craziness of Americans so I'm not worried about them.

According to the BBC, one of the hijacker suspects is alive and well, and living as a free man who had nothing to do with any such attack.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.

But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.

Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.

He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.

The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.

FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.

The bottom of the page has a link saying:
(Note: An update on this story was published in October 2006 in the BBC News editors' blog)

Haha, more like a cover-up after BBC fuckups let some good stuff loose just like the reporter who prematurely reported that WTC7 collapsed when she was still standing in front of it.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Ok let me get this straight. MFR you're saying that a plane cannot possibly penetrate steel while traveling at high speeds correct?

If that is so, how do you explain Kamikazes? The Mitsubishi Zero was a pretty light plane made out of aluminum. And yet there are cases of the planes crashing through armored decks (that is decks designed to withstand somewhat cannon shells and bombs and whatnot) and igniting ship magazines. These armored decks were made out of steel obviously. So what happened there? Was it a conspiracy by the US navy?

Don't you mean UK navy? I thought the US wasn't really into armored decks in WWII.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I don't know much about WWII bombs, but when they collided with something they blew up.

Not always. Look up the "Tallboy" bomb from WWII.

Weirdly, that was made of steel and could penetrate reinforced military structures.

 

[Mariposa]

So, everybody... tomorrow is the 21st, the end of the Mayan calendar! 11:11 AM GMT marks the Winter Solstice. I may or may not be asleep when it happens my time (3:11 AM). Most likely I will set an alarm for 3 AM, just to have one last bowl of the kindest green if it is the end.

And though I've joked about it for years, I really don't think anything of import is going to happen. There might be a few wackjobs acting out. But on the whole, I really do think it's going to be anti-climactic. I do have a bug out bag with extra clothes, map, compass, spare phone, my car has a full tank, I have some cash on hand and a supply of water/food/first aid/booze, but those are things I would have anyway. If there's one thing I have learned from being born and raised in hurricane country, it's to be prepared. My only weapons are pepper spray, (very good) kitchen knives, a baseball bat and a 9 iron. The axe we use to chop firewood (we've got a good supply of that too) is easily accessible.

Some of my family members - the same ones who tripped and built a Y2K bunker - are up in the mountains 'just in case'. I wish it were just an excuse for them to take the day off or a long weekend, but I do come from slightly crazy stock.

What I am wondering is how this will affect people who genuinely believe - to the point of being psychologically unstable - that something enormous is going to happen. I think NASA has ruled out Nibiru or an asteroid. The world has had a crazy month with the shootings and fiscal crisis, etc. Some people really take that sort of thing to heart. I know two people who ARE genuine believers, both took off to the country today. Neither is the type who would go batshit in a catastrophic situation, just a case of watching too many youtube videos combined with a little eccentricity.

But if the world does end - know that I've enjoyed engaging in various levels of discourse with most of you. I hope that this mark in time (and make no mistake, it is significant to many) brings a new level of peace and consciousness to the world.

See you on the flipside.

 

[L2R]

it's tomorrow here today

 

[MrGrunge]

^ Mayans don't operate in the 'Stralia timezone, mate.

 

[L2R]

i picture a couple of mexicans sitting bolt upright sipping tea from elegant teacups, both smoking cigarettes and sporting top hats and monacles.

gerald: so i say, which time zone do you propose that we set our armageddom calendar by, greenwich mean?
manfred: are there others?
gerald: *scoff*
manfred: *scoff indeed*

 

[freddy47]

Don't you mean UK navy? I thought the US wasn't really into armored decks in WWII.

The USN wasn't into armored decks for carriers I think but their battleships and cruisers had armored decks I'm pretty sure. That Cruiser I pointed out to MFR (evidence that he will again characteristically ignore) had 2 inches of armor for the deck.

The armor stats are:

These are the armor stats of the Cleveland class cruiser to which the USS Columbia belonged.

Armor:

Belt:3.25-5 in
Deck:2 in
Turrets:1.5-6 in
Barbettes: 6 in
Conning Tower:2.25-5 in

according to wikipedia.

 

[freddy47]

I don't know much about WWII bombs, but when they collided with something they blew up. You would be wise not carelessly drop one! I don't think they could "arm" them as you say, but provide a link if you find out otherwise. I think they just had the ability to realease them. Primitive bombs were always "armed" with impact detonators. You couldn't count on a petrofuel explosion in open space to impact anything/ It doesn't generate much pressure.

As to penetrating two decks, the bomb went off also at the moment of collision and pentrated the two decks and more.

You have no way of proving that the bomb went off at the moment of collision. In fact the evidence points to the contrary. The evidence being the amount of casualties suffered on board the USS Columbia. Most of the crew would have been inside the ship. If the bomb had exploded outside you would think there would have been less casualties.

As for WWII bombs. They had fuzes that needed to be armed before detonation.

There is no other type of bomb a Kamikaze would carry other than live impacted detonated bombs. These things would go off as soon as the plane collided because they too would be hitting at the same time. The bomb did the work.

Again you have no way of proving that the bomb did all the work and the plane did none. And Japanese planes were known to carry bombs that had fuzes that detonated the bombs AFTER impact which I will prove below.

Bombs are designed to penetrate and damge targets. Apparently there was no further pentration on the Jan. 6th Kamikaze on the USS Columbia and I find that hard to believe that the plane did all the penetrative work and the bomb did none.

Of course you find it hard to believe. You find everything that doesn't fit into your beliefs on the matter to be "hard to believe". Also you contradict yourself. If the bomb as you have said countless times detonated on impact than it couldn't have penetrated two decks because it would have exploded on the deck.

Also your knowledge of Japanese munitions is lacking. I will give you an example of how the typical Japanese bomb worked.

During the attack on Pearl Harbor the USS Arizona was hit by a bomb dropped from a Japanese plane. The bomb penetrated deep into the ship BEFORE exploding causing the ships magazine to ignite and explode sinking the battleship.

From Wikipedia:

The last bomb hit at 08:06 in the vicinity of Turret II, likely penetrating the armored deck near the ammunition magazines located in the forward section of the ship. While not enough of the ship is intact to judge the exact location, its effects are indisputable. About seven seconds after the hit, the forward magazines detonated in a cataclysmic explosion, mostly venting through the sides of the ship and destroying much of the interior structure of the forward part of the ship. This caused the forward turrets and conning tower to collapse downward some 25–30 feet (7.6–9.1 m) and the foremast and funnel to collapse forward.[47] The explosion killed 1,177 of the 1,512 crewmen on board at the time, over half of the lives lost during the attack.[21] It touched off fierce fires that burned for two days; debris showered down on Ford Island in the vicinity. The blast from this explosion also put out fires on the repair ship Vestal, which was moored alongside.

The bomb had a fuze that detonated the bomb after it had penetrated multiple decks. So now we know that not all WWII bombs were detonated upon impact. Which in the case of the USS Columbia means that both the plane and the bomb penetrated the ships steel armored deck before the bomb and the plane exploded.

 

[rickolasnice]

I think it's time we ignored the crazy man freddy.. who knows - he might fuck off.

There is no way the world is going to end today.. it's an "out there" interpretation of a relic from an ancient civilisation.. Didn't someone come forward recently and admit they may have interpreted it wrong?

That and my strong belief that psychic abilities just do not exist (at least within human beings)..

 

[kytnism]

So, everybody... tomorrow is the 21st, the end of the Mayan calendar! 11:11 AM GMT marks the Winter Solstice. I may or may not be asleep when it happens my time (3:11 AM). Most likely I will set an alarm for 3 AM, just to have one last bowl of the kindest green if it is the end.

And though I've joked about it for years, I really don't think anything of import is going to happen. There might be a few wackjobs acting out. But on the whole, I really do think it's going to be anti-climactic. I do have a bug out bag with extra clothes, map, compass, spare phone, my car has a full tank, I have some cash on hand and a supply of water/food/first aid/booze, but those are things I would have anyway. If there's one thing I have learned from being born and raised in hurricane country, it's to be prepared. My only weapons are pepper spray, (very good) kitchen knives, a baseball bat and a 9 iron. The axe we use to chop firewood (we've got a good supply of that too) is easily accessible.

Some of my family members - the same ones who tripped and built a Y2K bunker - are up in the mountains 'just in case'. I wish it were just an excuse for them to take the day off or a long weekend, but I do come from slightly crazy stock.

What I am wondering is how this will affect people who genuinely believe - to the point of being psychologically unstable - that something enormous is going to happen. I think NASA has ruled out Nibiru or an asteroid. The world has had a crazy month with the shootings and fiscal crisis, etc. Some people really take that sort of thing to heart. I know two people who ARE genuine believers, both took off to the country today. Neither is the type who would go batshit in a catastrophic situation, just a case of watching too many youtube videos combined with a little eccentricity.

But if the world does end - know that I've enjoyed engaging in various levels of discourse with most of you. I hope that this mark in time (and make no mistake, it is significant to many) brings a new level of peace and consciousness to the world.

See you on the flipside.

you couldnt even imagine.

the devastation involved psychologically in the "mayan: its the end of the world" theory in the mental health industry has been a truly saddening and deeply devastating outcome to those involved in the field during late 2012.

while the issue has been shits and giggles amongst adults in speculation, humour and debate; the greatest effects its had on anyone has been in teens and children. those most influential by societies "norms" and the media.

whilst adults, the media and radio have been broadcasting the issue; as though to be legitimate; for the past month; especially. the mental and social impact that it has caused as a result on youth mental health has been phenomenally negative and impacting to the point that words cannot describe.

children believing and trying to comprehend that everything theyve ever been taught to trust, know and love is suddenly coming to a final end and feel unsafe in simply being alive; is something almost impossible to talk them out of. no matter how much training/education/proof you can provide when everything else theyre socially being told dictates otherwise.

its a very hopeless position to be in. from both parties perspectives.

i only hope this issue disappears as quickly; and with evidence; as y2k did.

and the real issues in life that are present and problematic in todays society be focused moreso upon and ironed out so that tomorrows children can foresee a future, today.

...kytnism...

 

[rickolasnice]

Wow yeah didn't even think about what children would think about it.. poor lil buggers.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

The USN wasn't into armored decks for carriers I think but their battleships and cruisers had armored decks I'm pretty sure. That Cruiser I pointed out to MFR (evidence that he will again characteristically ignore) had 2 inches of armor for the deck.

I stand corrected.