Alcoholics Anonymous

[ranunky]

I comepletely agree with you TheDeceased. Anyone who says they are powerless over their addiction is having a laugh and frankly avoiding responsibility. You sound like my kind of guy. I respect your realism.

 

[PaulyPointz]

What AA means by powerlessness is choice thats masks itself as the compulsive abstinence from abusive substances. No one is powerless, the bottle doesn't chase us. What they mean is that the way our lizard brain is set up makes cessetion of our relationships to addictive substances very difficult once they are established. Think of the person you love the most and think how hard it would be to 'quit' that person, well that is what giving up your drink or drug is like. It is not about being powerless over this drug or that drink, it is about doing what it takes to seperate yourself from a destructive relationship which in the case of AA happens to be alcohol.
Think of it like being in a nasty relationship with this really really sexy girl who is amazing in bed but does shit like wreck your car and calls the cops on you just to be spiteful. She is fucking up your life but the sex is so good it kind of makes you forget and you feel like if you give her one more chance, things will work out differently, but it always ends the same and you swear that the bitch is out of your life for good. Then like always she shows up to your house with some sob story and gives you an amazing blow job and fucks your brains out when its been a dry spell and suddenly you think "maybe we can work things out". Then she wrecks your car again a few days later and calls the cops on you to be spiteful.
To not get in that trap you have to quit fucking her when she shows up at your house because you are powerless of what happens once you get in there.
Holla

 

[bagochina]

Anyone who says they are powerless over their addiction is having a laugh and frankly avoiding responsibility.

Tell me that when I was so strung out on heroin I would do whatever it took to get a fix. Thinking back on those days man I am definitely not laughing. That shit ruled my life I was a mindless slave.

peace.
seedless

 

[ranunky]

Anyone who says they are powerless over their addiction is [...] avoiding responsibility.

Tell me that when I was so strung out on heroin I would do whatever it took to get a fix.

I don't mean to slag you cause I'm doing the same thing myself but are you saying you had no choice?

 

[Asclepius]

Don't think any of the choices when it comes to chronic addiction are black or white. Was with someone for 5 years who was in and out of AA. Loving it after a relapse and hating it after a spell of recovery. Also, suicidaly desperate to give it up at one end, and throwing caution to the wind and saying 'I can control my alcohol intake if I can take responsibility for it' at the other.

Dont mean to scare-monger anyone, but although everyones different, dipping your toes in and out of a programme to get out of addictive behaviour doesnt work and I would strongly advise anyone who is confused to commit to a programme of recovery. Ive been to meetings myself and have found some of them unbearable/patronizing/sad/ ridiculous/hypocritical...lets just sayI I wouldnt want to have to be a member. However, when I've looked at my ex's life and how it turned out-I FULLY understand the need for 'Turning your will and your life over to a 'Higher Power''any 'Higher Power'!. HE's SO deluded , he doesnt even know when to believe himself and its driven him insane. Ive seen him so tormented... by his own doing and not being able to control it(it nearly drove me crazy too (luckily for me I went numb and stopped trying to fight for him because I became just another pawn in his cat and Mouse game with Alcohol)
His life is a farce, a string of broken relationships and bad choices-because of this addiction. He blames himself and when he cant take the guilt he pours on himself anymore-he'l blame Alcohol for his probs and when he cant blame Alcohol he'l drink and blame his drinking on something else. ITs a neverending spiral of guilt, blame, control, lies and denial. If I ever saw anyone in hell-its him! I mean there has been plenty of laughter bt it never endures because it means nothing to him-his main priority is to get rid of anything that causes him the tiniest amount of emotional pain! Alcohol's made him an emotional cripple and he's too proud to face that and too scared bt he cant face that either-he thinks hes Misunderstood. It broke my heart tryin to come to terms with denial at that level with someone you love and want to treat as an equal.

Although hes 'tough' he's not a classicall 'Bad guy', just a mans man but his ability to empathise has nearly gone completely. He's so charismatic, so street smart, so fun... but seeing that side of him becomes rare and soon only became apparent wen he was trying to show strangers how 'well adjusted' he was. Everything he does-he sets himself up for a fall, he has sclerocis of the liver and I know his brain isnt functioning right. Im waiting for a day to get a call to say he has died from it.
He 'thinks' he is fine when he's gone a few wks/month without it. He's an artist at making himself be unaware of what he's done to himself and everyone who cares about him. His femily cant get close, because no-one believes him, everyone has given up on him he's abused their trust so many times. Can you imagine how lonely it is to have Everyone in your Family(who are close nd functional) look at you with no respect or no trust just dissapointment? Like your the door to door Sales Man selling something they dont need! I hurt so bad for him, but he let me down too-so much, its the deliberate deceit I had to get away from it b4 I joined into his dillusions of grandeur. Even now he rings my familly home-Its been over a wk and he's still ringing a few times a day(no ones picked up but yet he's still tryin to control what he's no control of-and he wont let go!!!!!!!
He is the lonliest person I know because he does not know himself and he cant see that that's part of the problem. I dont mean to advocate any group to get over Alcoholism but please dont waste your time using reasons like Religion/likes/dislikes etc to not join something if you have a serious problem or if its becomming progressive.
You wont have to be violated by a priest or sacrifice your Genitles just because you join!!!! Its just a Matter of commiting to something that might save you from; at best-becomming the worst type of Cliche (Crazy Alcoholic), and at worst Dead; either Mentally/Spiritually/Physically or all 3- either way your signing your freedom and your life over to Alcohol.
I used to think people who talked like Ive just done were 'Over the Top', Over-Sensitive and exaggerating do-gooders but I've lost someone I love to this and would hate to not have said it if anyone might read it because sick of seein people's lives destroyed by addiction and denial of how strong it is.

 

[calmAnimal]

^ good shit right here

and to the person talking about being powerless... i guess its more the illusion of being powerless more than actually being powerless. i know what it feels like to use against my will and it sucks. i truly felt powerless at these times, but in reality did i have a choice? i guess but i just didnt know how to choose not to take another one.

enki- i loved ur pratical definition of AA. i go to NA cuz i can relate better but basically its the same concept. when i was using drugs i always wanted to be apart of the group getting high. i got high when i was happy, when i was pissed and when my friends were happy or pissed. now that i dont use its feels good to be apart of something less destructive. there are ppl in meetiings who can relate to what im going thru and r truly good ppl. of course there are going to be the shitty ppl there but i was told to stick with the "winners" if u keep going to meetings u'll realize who they r.

im aware that calling addiction a disease in the typical sense may b confusing and over simplified. as far as i can see its just easier. in my opinion, i think of it as more a syndrome. its an altered way of thinking that can be self destructive. and a way to tame this altered "fucked up " way of thinking is to talk about with other ppl who have this same "syndrome" they can relate to how im thinking and let me know how they handled a similar situation and how that worked out for them. cuz even when u take away the drugs,ppl can still act out of control.

also i think this syndrome manifests in many ways: sex, shopping, working, alcohol, drugs, pedophiles, serial killers, all ppll with harmful and self destructive thinkin patterns. of course that is a large range and some may b worse than others but i believe this " syndrome" is a sliding scale and however a person chooses to let it manifest, takes a hold of their life. anyways thats my 2 cents. hope it made sense. these night shifts got my sleeping schedule all fucked up.

 

[chief ten beers]

Well just got my second dui,I'm 42 years old and I can only look back at the wreckage left in the wake of my life because of booze.I'm not a very social person unless I'm drinking so I've used it as a crutch to be social with people.When I'm sober I'm very withdrawn and prefer to stay away from people but give me a few drinks and a switch goes off making me open up and become talkative and less inhibited.I guess it's back to try AA again which I've only dabbled with in the past.I find it interesting there are so many people who have such an aversion and distrust for god or the spiritual experience.I can understand a distaste for organized religion but i do believe the spiritual experience is a real phenomenon and can be truly life changing.To dismiss the possibility without trying it is to limit the chance for real lasting change in ones life as many addicts and alcoholics return to their old patterns again like a dog to it's vomit.Rational recovery huh? there is nothing rational about being an alcoholic or addict.Those destructive patterns get ingrained so deep in the body and the psyche and it takes something very powerful to change them and the rational mind isn't the best tool for that as it's a very fallible instrument.

 

[TheDeceased]

Had two beers last night. Only had five in the past week. Moderation is difficult, fucking god damn difficult, but it is possible. I used to be able to drink in moderation once upon a time. Drinking was fun then. I don't want to not be able to drink ever again. It's like drugs. I see some people fuck up drugs for themselves. They do way too much an they know they're doing too much and they don't care then they go an a mass downward spiral and at the bottom they realize: it's the drugs fault. The drugs are evil, they fucked up my life. But really it's not the booze or the drugs that fuck up people's lives. They fuck up their own lives or somebody else fucks up their life and then they blame it on the drugs because it's easier to do that then to blame yourself. I don't like the label ''alcoholic''. It's different from ''drug addict''. An alcoholic has a disease. They are powerless against booze, for life. They can never drink again. Whereas someone who's addicted to marijuana or LSD is a temporary addict. It's not a disease.

People shouldn't be taught that they are powerless, because then they believe it and when they relapse they are even worse because they know that they can't help themselves. They know that the night will go down hill.

If AA type support groups taught people how to handle alcohol and tried to work out the reasons that they drank in the first place and address those, then maybe people who are convinced that they are hopeless drunks could have a beer or two and not end up in the gutter.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Deceased congrats on minimizing your alcohol use. There is a prescription drug that is supposed to reduce cravings and periods of drinking. It is acamprosate. There are other pharmacological approaches too if any of that interests you. Keep up the good work!

People shouldn't be taught that they are powerless, because then they believe it and when they relapse they are even worse because they know that they can't help themselves. They know that the night will go down hill.

Alcohol and alcohol related problems are compex and varied enough that there should be multiple approaches available to people. I bet you would accept abstinence as an acceptable goal in a person with cirrhosis of the liver. In my opinion AA has become the answer for to many situations where it isn't necessarily appropriate. A Jr High kid suspended for gin in his locker is a different situation than a 55 y/o with multiple organ failure primarily caused by alcohol.

I can heear AA folks saying AA doesn't send people to AA the courts, the schools, or society does that. I'm for people choosing an approach for themselves. I think that AA as so many people and institutions default answer has to change, but AA is not a bad option. 12 step has dwarfed other approaches. That I think is what causes some resentment but we don't got to knock AA. It is likely the undeniably best approach for some people.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I went to my first meeting and ended up finding myself the following day with the biggest urge ever to drink and gamble. Some of the stories were quite bad and I guess me re-telling my stories didn't help. It just ended up playing in my head too much of how some of the occasions maybe weren't that bad. Although it was just that........ Wish I didn't drink the following day

 

[Legerity]

I can heear AA folks saying AA doesn't send people to AA the courts, the schools, or society does that. I'm for people choosing an approach for themselves. I think that AA as so many people and institutions default answer has to change, but AA is not a bad option. 12 step has dwarfed other approaches. That I think is what causes some resentment but we don't got to knock AA. It is likely the undeniably best approach for some people.

I think you have a very balanced view. Somehow AA has become the default treatment for addiction despite evidence showing that it is not particularly effective. When people do not improve they are told they are not working the program hard enough, rather than thinking that maybe it's just not the right approach for them.

I have my own resentments after having spent a lot of my formative years in AA/NA and having developed the self-identity of a lifelong addict, but if it works for somebody I would never tell them to leave. But the truth is that for many people, in particular adolescents, 12-step meetings can be not only unhelpful but actually harmful.

 

[PaulyPointz]

I just have a hard time trusting someone with my business, if I was to do the steps properly.

 

[tremours]

i think aa might work for people who realy want to get clean but from my experience when people are forced to go for rehab, courts and shit like that it has no beneficial value. Which is why i only pretend to go. I just need to figure out how to get an imaginary sponsor.

 

[T. Calderone]

But the truth is that for many people, in particular adolescents, 12-step meetings can be not only unhelpful but actually harmful.

My ex-husband would take my son to AA ever since he was 2. I didn't think it was appropriate for a young child to be exposed to all the drama. It's not like they had a separate room for children either. In 2004, he went whining to the courts that he wanted more time with our son. I mean, we divorced in 1999 and he had rights to take him 2 days a week and every other weekend.

We were ordered to see a certain mediator (no choice of who) and this woman was an idiot, plus cost us each $750. She didn't think it was a problem taking a little kid to AA, she thought it might "educate" him on the perils of drinking. I disagreed, as these people tell some gut-wreching stories. What a joke, she even demanded that each of us keep photos of ex spouse on display in our homes, in order to not alienate the boy. Total bitch...

 

[calmAnimal]

its easy i went to an iop last year when i was forced to try getting clean. at the time i wanted nothing to do with being clean. i lied about my meeting attendance, having a sponsor, the people i was hanging out with, everything. u may have to go to a few meetings to figure out what and how shit is done but it shouldnt be hard for a friend to be an imaginary sponsor, just tell em what to say if they check up on u.

 

[n1etzche]

"I hate myself when I drink and I always drink. So I hate myself generally"

Welcome to the wonderful world of addiction. My thoughts go out to you.

 

[Georgie25]

I don't like the label ''alcoholic''. It's different from ''drug addict''. An alcoholic has a disease. They are powerless against booze, for life. They can never drink again. Whereas someone who's addicted to marijuana or LSD is a temporary addict.

What are you talking about? Addiction itself is the disease. Whether you're addicted to alcohol, heroin, cocaine, meth, benzos, etc. Same thing. Idk how you can say an alcoholic is different from a drug addict, because alcohol itself is a drug. Just cause it's legal and society accepts it doesn't mean it's not a highly addictive, life ruining, drug which causes a lot of long term physical and mental problems when taking it over time, just like with many other drugs.

 

[deez_nuggs]

People shouldn't be taught that they are powerless, because then they believe it and when they relapse they are even worse because they know that they can't help themselves. They know that the night will go down hill.

If AA type support groups taught people how to handle alcohol and tried to work out the reasons that they drank in the first place and address those, then maybe people who are convinced that they are hopeless drunks could have a beer or two and not end up in the gutter.

The drugs you describe are in no way addictive. Alcohol can lead to physical addiction. yeah you can be taught one way and carry that belief through your adult life, or you can look at yourself, and say i'm powerful and not weak, accomplished not frustrated, and I'm not addicted. Whether or not you have a dependence on alcohol, its in your cognitive capacity to allow success or failure in this fight.

 

[TheDeceased]

Yeah I don't think everyone is capable of moderating their drinking without some help/support. I didn't really mean that AA is pointless, just pointless for me. I'd rather try and get it under control then end up like them.

T.Calderone, I only went to one meeting but the stuff people said blew me away. Highly disturbing gut-stuff. I don't think it's a good place for a little kid. You can educate children about the dangers of alcohol without throwing them in the deep end. The mediator sounds like a lunatic.

What are you talking about? Addiction itself is the disease. Whether you're addicted to alcohol, heroin, cocaine, meth, benzos, etc. Same thing. Idk how you can say an alcoholic is different from a drug addict, because alcohol itself is a drug. Just cause it's legal and society accepts it doesn't mean it's not a highly addictive, life ruining, drug which causes a lot of long term physical and mental problems when taking it over time, just like with many other drugs.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm saying there's a double standard applied to alcohol (like the legal thing you mentioned) where people with alcohol problems are labelled alcoholics and people who take drugs are often (temporarily) ''addicted to drugs''.

The general assumption is that alcoholism is more of a hereditary thing, that it is genetic, a disease, for life, etc.

It's not a disease. It's a question of will power. In AA you either put a drink to your lips or you don't. People in AA count the days that they remain sober. In terms of moderation, on the other hand, you either drink three drinks or you drink thirteen (or none). It's still a choice. I'd rather have three sometimes rather then always having zero.

Alcohol isn't inherently evil and I don't want to fuck it up for myself and end up blaming it for this bullshit power that it has over me.

The drugs you describe are in no way addictive.

Alcohol isn't addictive?

Alcoholics develop both a chemical and psychological dependency. You can die from DTs.

?

 

[ControlDaddy]

I love AA but AA doesn't keep me sober.
Only stim abuse seems to keep me sober. Wait a second...
Denial is a hell of a drug.
Stick around. You will laugh and you will most certainly cry.
Spiritual vs. Religious phooey. It don't matter just go and help your self get as much out of it as you can.
It is a cult. A remarkably benevolent one.

I also do this and it might help you too.

Home - SMART Recovery

SMART Recovery is the leading evidence-based addiction recovery program. Join a free meeting today and begin experiencing a Life Beyond Addiction.

www.smartrecovery.org

They have been doing mostly online meetings long before COVID so the community is pretty sophisticated in that sense.
It is not a spiritual or faith based program.
It is based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
There are way fewer members hence there are less meetings but so what?

I do everything I can to help myself because ETOH is doing all it can to keep me mad until it takes life itself away.
EDIT: @TheDeceased please PM me any time and at any level of intoxication. I can bullshit about alcohol or life or your mom or what have you until the cows come home.