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  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Alcohol hangover = Alcohol withdrawal (?)

Negentropic said:
I like him, too.

The only thing he's said that I question is when he talks about his personal heroin and meth use. He casually mentions that he can use such drugs with no repercussions, can use them very responsibly and has no cravings to use them again the next day.

Only a small subset of the population could do such a thing. It just bothers me that when he said this on the JRE podcast to millions....
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I agree.
In his book he does emphasize several times that everybody is different and that some people are much more prone to negative consequences than others. He also discourages daily use of anything.
He should probably be more careful about making bold statements without qualifiers.
 
Another question: Why is it that some people (like me) do not get hangovers?
 
nomorebenzos said:
Another question: Why is it that some people (like me) do not get hangovers?
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You have ascended to the next level of the human genome.

It's genetic. Something like 20% of people don't get them.

Apparently scientists aren't really sure why, though.

Maybe you're just really efficient at metabolizing acetaldehyde into acetic acid.
 
nomorebenzos said:
Another question: Why is it that some people (like me) do not get hangovers?
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Do you have any experience with 1,4-butanediol? It uses the same dehydrogenases, so the level of how well bdo works for you compared to gbl would likely correlate to your body's enzymatic activity, and could be a data point.

Do you get dehydrated from drinking? Do you notice impaired sleep when you go to bed drunk?

I think @jasperkent had a really good model for the elements that cause hangovers. Likely there is something in your makeup that makes those less severe. My first bet would be increased metabolism, as that would reduce all of the hangover symptoms.
 
Skorpio said:
Do you have any experience with 1,4-butanediol? It uses the same dehydrogenases, so the level of how well bdo works for you compared to gbl would likely correlate to your body's enzymatic activity, and could be a data point.

Do you get dehydrated from drinking? Do you notice impaired sleep when you go to bed drunk?

I think @jasperkent had a really good model for the elements that cause hangovers. Likely there is something in your makeup that makes those less severe. My first bet would be increased metabolism, as that would reduce all of the hangover symptoms.
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No experience with butanediol as far as I know

I don't usually get dehydrated from drinking. Although during benzo withdrawal I spent a week fully awake drinking whisky 24/7 and became so dehydrated I couldn't poop at all. As far as sleep goes I would say yeah it is impaired somewhat but I suspect that has to do with damage to my GABA system overall and not an acute result of alcohol consumption.
 
nomorebenzos said:
Another question: Why is it that some people (like me) do not get hangovers?
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How many years, months, days have you been drinking alcohol? How often do you drink and how much do you drink?

I thought I was immune from getting hangovers and I was until I started drinking in large amounts and daily, and then quit everything by 30. I never went to rehab, AA/NA. If other people do this it is fine I just did it slowly, but did not even tell anyone I was doing this. I had a tendency to drink daily even if it was in low amounts and when I would get super drunk on weekends, at pubs/bars, at parties, etc. I still would drink daily but in lower amounts with or without smoking marijuana or hashish and then slowly cut back.

Re: hangovers = alcohol poisoning. I have been told this is true. I am not sure if it is alcohol withdrawal? I know alcoholics who when they drink in low standard amounts such as 1-3 drinks they get alcohol withdrawal, and this happened over time.

Kindling (sedative–hypnotic withdrawal) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
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Hangovers are not real.

They are a punishment from judgement. A wicked one if you ask me.

I hate judgement.
 
right, the AWD stuff is gaba/glutamate axis damage. and distinctly different. it's not a "sick" feeling it's a "panic attack" feeling.
 
PriestTheyCalledHim said:
How many years, months, days have you been drinking alcohol? How often do you drink and how much do you drink?

I thought I was immune from getting hangovers and I was until I started drinking in large amounts and daily, and then quit everything by 30. I never went to rehab, AA/NA. If other people do this it is fine I just did it slowly, but did not even tell anyone I was doing this. I had a tendency to drink daily even if it was in low amounts and when I would get super drunk on weekends, at pubs/bars, at parties, etc. I still would drink daily but in lower amounts with or without smoking marijuana or hashish and then slowly cut back.

Re: hangovers = alcohol poisoning. I have been told this is true. I am not sure if it is alcohol withdrawal? I know alcoholics who when they drink in low standard amounts such as 1-3 drinks they get alcohol withdrawal, and this happened over time.

Kindling (sedative–hypnotic withdrawal) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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also - some people just have a genetic predisposition to NOT developing kindling affects. I have polish friends that polish off a handle a day for months then go on a trip or something and just stop, no thoughts about it. it's not everyone, very small minority but it does exist. then there's people like me where my entire family line is littered w anxiety/gaba/electrical mental problems and me, my sis and mom all get severe AWD symptoms from 6 beers.
 
Yeah, alcohol is an interesting drug because it effects nearly every neurotransmitter in your brain (as well as other things like your gut microbiome), unlike all other drugs which effect 1, 2 maybe 3 neurotransmitters (at least in a significant way).

I suspect this is why there is such a huge genetic variance in how alcohol effects people. So many different factors.
 
cdin said:
also - some people just have a genetic predisposition to NOT developing kindling affects. I have polish friends that polish off a handle a day for months then go on a trip or something and just stop, no thoughts about it. it's not everyone, very small minority but it does exist. then there's people like me where my entire family line is littered w anxiety/gaba/electrical mental problems and me, my sis and mom all get severe AWD symptoms from 6 beers.
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That is interesting. When I was drinking daily and had been for at least a year I saw a doctor, for an annual physical and I told her how much I was drinking and she became angry and I figured I had to have liver damage from too much alcohol but I was perfectly fine. Years later when I quit everything even alcohol and just said how I just slowly stopped the doctor said I was genetically lucky not to have had any withdrawal/kindling. When I was drinking daily or just partying a lot smoking marijuana/hashish, taking acid, and mushrooms I would drink liters of coffee, green tea, and black tea daily so maybe that helped some?
 
In my opinion, hangovers and withdrawal are separate phenomena. A lot of the symptoms of your run of the mill hangover are from dehydration, poor sleep, stomach upset and the metabolites produced as alcohol is processed by the liver.

As evidence for this, I will provide my own experience. When I first started drinking, having no alcohol dependence and not really knowing how much water I needed to drink or anything, I got some bad hangovers. As my body got more used to alcohol and regular drinking, the hangovers went away and I could function well the next day after drinking a lot the night before. However, as my drinking progressed to unhealthy levels the hangovers started to get bad again.

Now, if hangovers were from alcohol withdrawal why would they have gotten better as I started drinking more regularly? Isn't the definition of withdrawal that it appears when the drug your body is used to, is removed? Also, as someone else pointed out, a benzo hangover feels quite different from benzo withdrawal, so why is that?

You could argue some of the effects of hangovers are GABA rebound which is a type of withdrawal. I am willing to concede that, although to me it comes down to semantics at this point. Withdrawal and hangover are two distinct phenomena as I see it, with some possible overlap. Whether you want to call that withdrawal or GABA rebound is up to you. I think GABA rebound is more precise and less confusing.



Negentropic said:
They wrote a few books that are not promoted or advertised, they've been on a few podcasts by request... I'd hardly call them charlatans, they don't go around pushing products or services... they both stay in their natural element as one would do in their position and people come to them and buy their books if they like them.

They're not selling snake oil on the street and making a big display. They're not Dr. Oz, lol.


I assume you're specifically speaking about Jordan Peterson here

The guy is a college professor and I really don't think he intended to become as internet famous as he did. His college lectures were posted on youtube years ago and they went viral-ish. I can understand why a lot of people don't like him, there are some glaring things I question about him myself.

You seem very animated and passionate here, who or what do you think people should learn psychology from instead? Just curious.

In this spiritually retarded world we live in-- where is the enlightenment you seem to prefer yourself?
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Jordan Peterson has been trying to get famous for decades. He craves attention and admiration. Not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that but let's not pretend he was just some normal college professor who happened to go rival. Going rival was simply the lucky break that got him famous after many previous attempts starting with all his Canadian TV appearances.
 
I agree. Nuanced response last post. And yep, some of the symptoms overlap but the DTs/awd are separate.
 
burn out said:
Jordan Peterson has been trying to get famous for decades. He craves attention and admiration. Not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that but let's not pretend he was just some normal college professor who happened to go rival. Going rival was simply the lucky break that got him famous after many previous attempts starting with all his Canadian TV appearances.
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Can you point to some evidence for this? You may be right but I've never had that impression. What designates an overt attempt or desire for fame?

I'm not exactly super familiar with his work either, though.

What are his Canadian TV appearances? Interviews? Is he going around begging TV producers to interview him?

The Dalai Lama travels the world giving speeches at large sold out venues. Is he attempting to become famous? I guess we could go on an infinite semantical argument.
 
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My understanding is that a hangover from alcohol is primarily the toxicity from acetaldehyde, which is a very toxic substance that is the metabolic result of alcohol dehydrogenase breaking down ethanol. Dehydration is also a factor. It will happen to people who have never drank before as well as anyone else, every time you drink enough (and especially, quickly enough) that more than a little bit is able to accumulate at a time. Of course, over time, if you drink heavily and often, you will being to develop dependence, and at that point, a hangover also includes withdrawal. But I don't think that's all it is. Nobody gets withdrawal from a drug the first time they do it, but people get terrible hangovers the very first time they drink, if they drink too much.
 
Negentropic said:
Can you point to some evidence for this? You may be right but I've never had that impression. What designates an overt attempt or desire for fame?

I'm not exactly super familiar with his work either, though.

What are his Canadian TV appearances? Interviews? Is he going around begging TV producers to interview him?

The Dalai Lama travels the world giving speeches at large sold out venues. Is he attempting to become famous? I guess we could go on an infinite semantical argument.
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I don't think that the Dalai Lama is an apt comparison. Being a major public figurehead is part of the Dalai Lama's job description and as far as I understand it, he didn't even choose that job but rather was selected for it. That's not to say he doesn't desire fame, I have no idea I just don't see the relevance.

Jordan Peterson on the other hand, has a clear pattern of seeking the spotlight and self promoting. Here is a clip from one of his stints on Canadian TV:



I can't find the name of show anymore, there used to be a lot more videos like this on youtube but it seems they have been deleted or set to private now for some reason.

Anyway, when I was in college none of professors were appearing on talk shows wearing funny hats to promote their work. I could be wrong but I just think it's more than coincidence how famous he is now.
 
@burn out that is indeed a silly little hat lol

I see your perspective, although my idea of someone who is attention seeking and fame seeking is something different. This seems to be him giving advice to people on a public platform. That seems to be most of what he does. Trying to help people navigate life. Attention seeking, to me, has a negative connotation. I think he's honestly just trying to help people in this clip and most other clips I've seen of him.

anyways, back on topic
 
BenzoEnthusiast said:
Confusing hangovers as withdrawal has lead me to actual withdrawals many a time.

Like shaking hands in the morning when really I just needed to replace the sugars the alcohol burnt away is just one example.
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that's a great insight, similar things have led me to further dependence in the past by thinking I was having withdrawals when in reality it was probably psychologically manifested, other biophysical problems or maybe a little rebound

the fear of withdrawal is powerful
 
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