Alchemy

[akautonomics]

This is sort of a diversion from my Philosophy vs. Science which I'm surprised didn't devolve into Philosophy/Science/Religion, because along with science, philosophy and yes even religion, I think alchemy can be a helpful addition for evolving spiritually.

Has anyone here studied alchemy? I have read a bit on wikipedia and looked at a lot of pictures (I have a book of alchemical art from the Hermetic Museum.)

 

[rangrz]

What does alchemy have to do with "evolving spiritually" (I might also ask, what in the fuck does that even mean?)

Alchemy is just a proto-science that became chemistry (and perhaps the profession of pharmacy). It had a few successes, albeit far more failures. It's goal of the "philosophers stone" has finally been kind of realized in the form of ¹⁹⁶Hg+neutron--->¹⁹⁷Hg --->electron capture--->¹⁹⁷Au+ electron anti-neutrino is the simplest, but various other ones exist.

But I don't know where you going with this, like alchemy was in reality primarily a (quasi)scientific endeavour in it's time, one that has been superseded by various modern sciences and understanding. It had it's spiritual and mystical aspect, but only in so far as everything during that period of history had mystical/spiritual/magic/religious aspects. Alchemy, along with mathematics, and natural philosophy probably had less of that nonsense than most stuff back then did.

Knowing you the way I do, I have a suspicion most of your interest in it is due to the aesthetics of the symbols and formalism used. Need I remind you that all symbols are inherently arbitrary and meaningless of themselves and that modern symbols are equally much so in being squiggly lines. Make up any damn symbol you find "aesthetically pleasing" assign it whatever bloody semantic meaning you please and use it your notes in your OrgChem class, while still learning something valid and useful.

Really, it's just a refuted scientific theory/concept in chemistry like the geocentric solar system is astronomy, spontaneous generation is in biology or the Luminiferous aether in physics. None of those have any value to "spiritual evolution" do they? Why would alchemy?

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

My understanding at this stage:
Alchemy is the ancestor(or one stage of the evolution of) of modern day philosophy,science and religion it is based on the study of affecting change(transmutation) on our external world through science and technology, affecting change(transmutation) on our internal self through spirituality/religion(think Hermeticism) and distinguishing/binding the two by philosophical means.


Relation to Hermeticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy):
In the eyes of a variety of esoteric and Hermetic practitioners, the heart of alchemy is spiritual. Transmutation of lead into gold is presented as an analogy for personal transmutation, purification, and perfection.[6] This approach is often termed 'spiritual', 'esoteric', or 'internal' alchemy.

Early alchemists, such as Zosimos of Panopolis (c. AD(CE) 300), highlight the spiritual nature of the alchemical quest, symbolic of a religious regeneration of the human soul.[15] This approach continued in the Middle Ages, as metaphysical aspects, substances, physical states, and material processes were used as metaphors for spiritual entities, spiritual states, and, ultimately, transformation. In this sense, the literal meanings of 'Alchemical Formulas' were a blind, hiding their true spiritual philosophy. Practitioners and patrons such as Melchior Cibinensis and Pope Innocent VIII existed within the ranks of the church, while Martin Luther applauded alchemy for its consistency with Christian teachings.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy)
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On the page there was the picture below from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Llull) and it seems rather similar to the path of Kundalini also below.

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History- Chakras as a part of Kundalini (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_yoga)

All yoga forms are believed to raise kundalini energy, and have their origins in the pillars and Yoga Sutra of Patanjali, a foundational yoga scripture believed to have been compiled around the 2nd century BCE(BC).[7][8] Based on this foundation, most yoga forms and meditation derive their structure and discipline from the ashtanga 8-limbed approach, which provide guidelines for the austerities of practice.

It is impossible to know much more about the origins of some of the concepts (Egyptians are often cited) due to destruction of libraries/art in the past through human selfishness/stupidity or the very impermanent method of storing information in the physical world.
(Maybe one day we can teleport an extremely powerful telescope far enough away in space/time in have a closer look at our own history as the light from back then reaches the telescope, is this possible do you think Rangerz?).

Also I would term Alexander Shulgin and Albert Hoffman and many other people as alchemists at heart, I would say their work in the laboratory has aided spiritual evolution much more than the invention of spaceflight or modern medicine.

Edit:(Also you may have noticed my avatar which is a representation/artwork of the legend of Merlin who was a wizard with magic and alchemical talents

 

[rangrz]

Shulgin and Hoffman are chemists in the modern sense. They applied the scientific method, rigour and most importantly in this case, treated chemistry in a reductionist fashion on the grounds of methodological naturalism . Whatever their spiritual beliefs may be, they treated chemistry as a purely mechanistic process and though it terms of atoms, electrons, functional groups, etc.

In shulgin's case, even his approach to the psychedelic experience has the trappings of science. He has a quantitative scale of intensity. He notes things like perspiration, heart rate, queasyness and other such physiological details. As above, none of the chemistry details in Phikal has any hint of mysticism or spiritual influence. It's cold, hard science.

If alchemy has been used as an analogy to personal growth. Like transmutation of lead to gold to mean transmutation of your internal state by mysticism, it is only a modern view or use. Alchemy was serious science in it's day. It was about the physical world, understanding and manipulating things via chemical reactions. (Or in the case of lead to gold, what actually turned out to be nuclear reactions) Newton was an alchemist, and in no way is his description of motion or his law of universal gravitation an analogy for spiritual growth. His equations are what the landing module computer on the Apollo Missions used! Nor are synthetic routes for sulphuric acid, nitric acid or hydrochloric acid. Or purification of mercury and sulphur from rocks. Or smelting gold and silver and alloying iron and bronze. Those are all genuine physical processes with important engineering implications. IIRC alchemy gave the first concept of conservation laws. That the total weight of a system stays if it's all sealed in, despite the fact that the stuff might change. All that stuff is recognizably scientific, the mysticism and such was just a consequence of the time, when mysticism was attached to everything.

I respect the alchemists of past for their works, discoveries and for giving birth to the sciences. They truly did, as no other field was approached with empirical observation and experiment. (biology was non-existent as such, physics aside from a bit work on optics, was mostly wanky metaphysics, etc) But, in the same way as the alchemists did experiments and used empirical evidence, so should we and continue on with modern chemistry, leaving the refuted theories behind. Of course, the reactions that the alchemists worked out a thousand years ago are still valid, but let's keep finding new reactions to add to them.

re:telescope teleporting. Aside from the teleporting issue, the problem is how faint the light would be. Light falls off by an inverse square. (it's 9 times fainter at 3 feet away than it was at 1 foot away) and extinction distance (How much dust and interstellar gas atoms can the light go thru before no original photons are left)

 

[panic in paradise]

for myself alchemy is a lot like osmosis/allegory, which varies in effect from one person to the next.

^this picture to your average Joe might seem to have some inherent meaning, or not; for the spiritually adept viewing this or something similar, they might have a life changing affect, with no explanation as to why. the reason is the inherent message, even though not completely understood at first, it is "downloaded" and a process of change begins from within.

 

[akautonomics]

Word. It's also a dope picture. May I put it on my tumblr?

 

[rangrz]

For me, Alchemy is still just primitive chemistry.

To your average Joe, these pictures have no meaning and are patent nonsense. For the scientifically adept viewing this or something similar, they might have a deep insight into the nature of atoms and molecules and I think that if the original alchemists had access to the modern understanding and techniques and seen their amazing explanatory and predictive power, they would download it and a process of change within them would begin and tilt them to abandon their model in favour of it.

 

[Cthulhu]

^^rangrz: it may be true that the original meaning of "alchemy" was the transmutation of physical substances, a type of primitive chemistry as you say (although I'm not sure, and there certainly was a mystical component that developed at some point). However, in the modern age alchemy has no utility within that construct because it obviously cannot compete with chemistry. Therefore, isn't it appropriate that its present meaning reside in the realm of psychological and spiritual change? This is where it currently has great utility.

That utility has to do with a different kind of science: the science of the inner world. Because the construct of alchemy has to do with purposive, deliberate change through transmutation, that principle would have to hold on the inner level. One example: the transmutation of fear into courage; here, we can see the process of transmutation at work in the simultaneous similarity and difference between "fear" and "courage". Fear is more instinctual, gut-level, and behaviorally manifested as fight/flight/freeze. Courage is similar because some trepidation still exists, but the base instinct has been refined into a conscious decision to engage with the situation and accept its inherent uncertainty. Visually, this can be illustrated by changes in the chakras and energy flow.

 

[akautonomics]

Cthulhu: I think that's what is meant by the microcosm/macrocosm duality in alchemy. Macrocosm refers to study of the universe and things outside the observer's mind. The microcosm is like... the internal process of transmutation.

I'm not really sure whether I have the right idea here, but that's how it seems to me. Alchemy is like a combination of both philosophy and natural philosophy (aka Science). I would say modern chemistry/physics should be amalgamated into the field of alchemy (macrocosm-wise) and perhaps psychology, philosophy and religion can be used to study the microcosm.

I think modern alchemists (chemists) have been brainwashed by our society's imperative to "advance" and consume resources, and have completely forgotten about the importance of introspection and personal spiritual growth. I'm sure there are some chemists who have a strong sense of microcosm. My brother is a chemist and he is one of the most emotionally stable and content people I know. Then again he is also a sociopath.

 

[Cthulhu]

My brother is a chemist and he is one of the most emotionally stable and content people I know. Then again he is also a sociopath.

Lol - don't confuse emotionally stable with emotionally vacant!

As to the scope of your conception of alchemy: if it covers such a broad range of phenomena, what would you say its unifying purpose is in the hands of humankind?

 

[akautonomics]

I'm really not sure to any extent. The best answer that I can come up with is that the goal is some kind of resolution/unification of the macrocosm with the microcosm, in the sense of one's perception of self as an individual and how they relate to the rest of the universe.

 

[Cthulhu]

Going along with that idea of inner and outer, universe and self, how about a purpose related to evolution? The universe has evolved from the physical to the biological to the human, through processes of change and complexification. Perhaps alchemy is humankind taking the torch of evolution and furthering it in the domains of spirit, psyche, and society.

I see alchemy as a name for the process of taking what's given us and creating something new and beautiful. Like the Tibetan Vajayana purpose of taking whatever life circumstances are given to one and incorporating that into one's practice of movement toward enlightenment.

A great example of alchemy: getting lemons and making lemonade - how sweet and satisfying!

 

[rangrz]

But the universe has not evolved in the sense of physical--->biological---->human. For one, Human is subsumed into biological which subsumed into physical. The other reason is that, well, there still exists a lot of physical, non-biological, non-human stuff in the universe. No?

 

[akautonomics]

If humans evolved from apes, WHY ARE THERE STILL APES

 

[rangrz]

What extant species of ape do you think should be missing?

 

[P A]

^lol

 

[ShaggyFin]

This is more about Norse philosophy than Alchemy :D but good subject :D

 

[rangrz]

Really? Explain that to me ShaggyFin, how is this thread, or what akautonomics is talking about, more about Norse mythology than alchemy. I'd be fascinated to hear how Akautonomics got norse mytho from books and websites that about alchemy and refer to Middle Eastern Alchemists on a frequent basis. (Bearing in mind that I hang out with AkAutonomics almost every day and I've seen the books and the websites she looks at)

 

[ShaggyFin]

Posts like these. This is all heavily Norse.

My understanding at this stage:
Alchemy is the ancestor(or one stage of the evolution of) of modern day philosophy,science and religion it is based on the study of affecting change(transmutation) on our external world through science and technology, affecting change(transmutation) on our internal self through spirituality/religion(think Hermeticism) and distinguishing/binding the two by philosophical means.


Relation to Hermeticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy):
In the eyes of a variety of esoteric and Hermetic practitioners, the heart of alchemy is spiritual. Transmutation of lead into gold is presented as an analogy for personal transmutation, purification, and perfection.[6] This approach is often termed 'spiritual', 'esoteric', or 'internal' alchemy.

Early alchemists, such as Zosimos of Panopolis (c. AD(CE) 300), highlight the spiritual nature of the alchemical quest, symbolic of a religious regeneration of the human soul.[15] This approach continued in the Middle Ages, as metaphysical aspects, substances, physical states, and material processes were used as metaphors for spiritual entities, spiritual states, and, ultimately, transformation. In this sense, the literal meanings of 'Alchemical Formulas' were a blind, hiding their true spiritual philosophy. Practitioners and patrons such as Melchior Cibinensis and Pope Innocent VIII existed within the ranks of the church, while Martin Luther applauded alchemy for its consistency with Christian teachings.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy)
------------------
On the page there was the picture below from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Llull) and it seems rather similar to the path of Kundalini also below.

---------------------

History- Chakras as a part of Kundalini (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_yoga)

^^rangrz: it may be true that the original meaning of "alchemy" was the transmutation of physical substances, a type of primitive chemistry as you say (although I'm not sure, and there certainly was a mystical component that developed at some point). However, in the modern age alchemy has no utility within that construct because it obviously cannot compete with chemistry. Therefore, isn't it appropriate that its present meaning reside in the realm of psychological and spiritual change? This is where it currently has great utility.

That utility has to do with a different kind of science: the science of the inner world. Because the construct of alchemy has to do with purposive, deliberate change through transmutation, that principle would have to hold on the inner level. One example: the transmutation of fear into courage; here, we can see the process of transmutation at work in the simultaneous similarity and difference between "fear" and "courage". Fear is more instinctual, gut-level, and behaviorally manifested as fight/flight/freeze. Courage is similar because some trepidation still exists, but the base instinct has been refined into a conscious decision to engage with the situation and accept its inherent uncertainty. Visually, this can be illustrated by changes in the chakras and energy flow.

 

[rangrz]

Zosimos of Panopolis was Egyptian.
Melchior Cibinensis was Hungarian.
The picture was from Ramon Llul, who was from a region which is in modern day Spain, at the time it was under the Muslim rule.
Kundalini is a hindu concept, ditto for chakras.

I fail to see what connection any of that has with Norse mythos.