Advice needed for heroin detox please

[WolfCub]

Hi I am in such a terrible place I don't know where to turn. Im a female iv heroin user from UK and I desperately need any help you can give.

I've been literally attempting to stop using every day for several months and my life has consisted of going into withdrawal for anywhere from 1 to 3 days and then using. Rinse and repeat. I have no friends and if my daughter finds out I'm using again I won't have a family either.

My heroin addiction started 5 years ago and ive had a few weeks clean here and there. I IV and currently do betwen 3 and 5 bags of crap gear. My habit used to be huge 20 bags plus 70ml methadone. I went to rehab and got off the methadone and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I have got 2 subutex tablets. I have read obsessively how to use them for quick detox but the info is so contradictory. Some people seem to think that using sub is just just postponing the withdrawals and others swear that a short sub detox works wonders.

Could someone please explain how a short sub detox works... if it isn't just a continuance of opiate use where the WD will start when I finish the sub, how is it different? Perhaps if I understand how it works I will be less fearful.

I am so completely paralysed with fear. Fear to keep using and fear of stopping. I used to be able to cold turkey with ease but the fear and anxiety are so bad. ZThe longest I went was 4 days a few weeks ago and I honesty thought I was going to have a heart attack my heart was beating so hard I didn't know what to do with myself. Is this normAl? I'm sure it didn't used to happen.

Im at more than rock bottom. My self pity sickens me and my life consists of reading about how to detox and lying in bed waiting to take subutex. But the fear and anxiety gets so bad I don't end up doing the subutex. Im scared I'll make things worse. This has to end because the next level down is losing my daughter (and new grandaughter) and ending up in a mental hospital.

Please. Anyone, I'd be so grateful for any help or support because I have no one in real life. Thanks.

 

[cj]

A short sub detox will help the withdrawals if you do it right. Do you have access to benzos? valium or kolonopin would be preferred but anything will help. Can you get into your GP and get a full range of comfort meds? Clonidine, a muscle relaxer, benzo, and ambien would be a damn near full kick kit imo. Can you get loperamide at the drug store in UK? I know you can get codeine right? A quick step down with codeine would actually be my choice over the bupe. Anyway you slice it your going to feel like shit for a week. Accept that there are variations of how much shit your going to feel like and this will all be a lot easier.

Besides we both know staying off is harder then getting off. Your going to need a support system of some kind. Im not a 12 stepper and I don't know what the NHS has to offer as far as outpatient treatment but you need some help at first. Hiding it from your daughter will be tough for many reasons. If your anything like me you think you got everyone fooled but you don't. You will be the last to know that everyone knows that's just how heroin addiction plays out.

Sorry your going through this. I had to get on methadone and stay on methadone to get off H for good. The roller coaster just wore me out. I am sure others will have advice but let us know what kind of comfort meds you can get and we will cook you up a plan.

 

[WolfCub]

Thanks for replying cj.

The comfort meds situation is a problem. Here in the uk or at least in my area, GP will not prescribe anything with regard to opiate detox. I have asked on several occasions and they can only refer you to drug services. I have contacted drug services thinking they might prescribe comfort meds but there is only a choice of subutex, methadone and in rare cases they will prescribe a weeks' worth of Britlofex/Lofexidine. It's crazy right?

I can't even get a script for a benzo by blagging it. The docs are soooo scared to prescribe anything. I don't have any access to black market drugs either because I am a complete hermit and have contact with one person on a daily basis... I suppose I coukd try to buy a benzo online but I don't know of a trustworthy source and would hate to end up buying sugar pills or worse.

Yes I can get loperamide otc. I have lope, 5htp, valerian and passionflower, potassium and about 50mg of tramadol as well as the 2 x 8mg of subutex. I know that if it wasn't for the extreme anxiety I would be able to do this with relative ease. I can't really even describe it as anxiety it seems to go beyond that.

I feel how you felt... I am worn out. I never thought something could be so horrendous and so soul sapping. Im beyond sick of it and am at the point where I feel like there's only one way out.

My daughter really doesn't know and she has made it perfectly clear in the past that if I were to go back to using then I could say goodbye to her and my grandaughter. I truly wish I could tell her because i really believe that the deceit and pressure of hiding it from her and trying to detox without her knowing is making it all but impossible to succeed.

I am not a fan of the 12 steps to say the least. I live in a very remote tiny village in the English countryside and so there are plenty of heroin addicts but virtually no community services. I know this all comes across as sounding like I have a defeatist attitude but trust me my resources are extremely limited.

Thanks again cj. Im really grateful to have a resource such as BL and if a plan can be cooked up that helps me get this monkey off my back and kicked into the gutter I'll give it 110% thank you

Like you I'm not a fan of 12 step programmes and I'm looking into rational recovery and smart recovery. U live in a tiny village in the English countryside which has more than its fair share of heroin addicts and less than its share of community services.

I am so grateful to have BL and if a plan can be cooked up that gives me a chance to get this smelly monkey off my back and kicked into the gutter I couldn't ask for more. Thank you

 

[cj]

Ight I would start with 1mg of subutex approx. 24 hours after last H dose or whenever you cant stand the withdrawal anymore. Then wait 45min if you don't go into precip withdrawal take 2mg then wait 2 hours and take 1mg doses until your somewhat comfortable. For me it doesn't matter how much sub I take the first day I wont be 100 percent comfortable so don't blow it all trying to feel completely normal. Once your stable on the sub take 2mg dose in the morning then 1mg dose at lunch and 1mg before bed. Then next day 1mg at wake up 1mg at night. and repeat the goal would be to get to 1mg once a day but im not sure you have enough sub to do that. The key is too keep your introduction dose as low as possible so you have more to actually taper with. Bupe has a long half life and will build in your system so after you finish the 16mg you should have 2-3 days with limited symptoms of withdrawal. Once you feel the withdrawal again use the tramadol. Then start using the other comfort meds once your out of opiates.

If its still unbearably bad after all that then go get some lope and you can continue a taper with that but I advise against it as many people get stuck in that cycle. Also eating right and getting a little exercise to kick start some endorphins will help. I especially recommend you do something fun the days your on bupe and feeling comfortable. Use those as a dry run for what your going to do once the physical sickness passes. The real war is staying off this shit long term.

How does that sound?

 

[JoeJunky]

Hi I am in such a terrible place I don't know where to turn. Im a female iv heroin user from UK and I desperately need any help you can give.

I've been literally attempting to stop using every day for several months and my life has consisted of going into withdrawal for anywhere from 1 to 3 days and then using. Rinse and repeat. I have no friends and if my daughter finds out I'm using again I won't have a family either.

My heroin addiction started 5 years ago and ive had a few weeks clean here and there. I IV and currently do betwen 3 and 5 bags of crap gear. My habit used to be huge 20 bags plus 70ml methadone. I went to rehab and got off the methadone and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I have got 2 subutex tablets. I have read obsessively how to use them for quick detox but the info is so contradictory. Some people seem to think that using sub is just just postponing the withdrawals and others swear that a short sub detox works wonders.

Could someone please explain how a short sub detox works... if it isn't just a continuance of opiate use where the WD will start when I finish the sub, how is it different? Perhaps if I understand how it works I will be less fearful.

I am so completely paralysed with fear. Fear to keep using and fear of stopping. I used to be able to cold turkey with ease but the fear and anxiety are so bad. ZThe longest I went was 4 days a few weeks ago and I honesty thought I was going to have a heart attack my heart was beating so hard I didn't know what to do with myself. Is this normAl? I'm sure it didn't used to happen.

Im at more than rock bottom. My self pity sickens me and my life consists of reading about how to detox and lying in bed waiting to take subutex. But the fear and anxiety gets so bad I don't end up doing the subutex. Im scared I'll make things worse. This has to end because the next level down is losing my daughter (and new grandaughter) and ending up in a mental hospital.

Please. Anyone, I'd be so grateful for any help or support because I have no one in real life. Thanks.

I'll just say that suboxone changed my mindset, I stopped obsessing about H. Shooting suboxone is a waste of time and using it to bridge gaps between H fixes is frustrating too.

I tried methadone clinic also, it didn't work for me for several reasons. I hate to tell someone go get on suboxone because you might have the willpower to stop for good, I didn't.

Again, suboxone got my life to a stable place first then I was ready to jump off opiates with much less of a chance of relapse.

My life was in a really bad place on H, I still see people on H with no plan on quitting. You realize it's a problem and want to do something, that's your big positive.

Best of luck.

 

[WolfCub]

Ight I would start with 1mg of subutex approx. 24 hours after last H dose or whenever you cant stand the withdrawal anymore. Then wait 45min if you don't go into precip withdrawal take 2mg then wait 2 hours and take 1mg doses until your somewhat comfortable. For me it doesn't matter how much sub I take the first day I wont be 100 percent comfortable so don't blow it all trying to feel completely normal. Once your stable on the sub take 2mg dose in the morning then 1mg dose at lunch and 1mg before bed. Then next day 1mg at wake up 1mg at night. and repeat the goal would be to get to 1mg once a day but im not sure you have enough sub to do that. The key is too keep your introduction dose as low as possible so you have more to actually taper with. Bupe has a long half life and will build in your system so after you finish the 16mg you should have 2-3 days with limited symptoms of withdrawal. Once you feel the withdrawal again use the tramadol. Then start using the other comfort meds once your out of opiates.

If its still unbearably bad after all that then go get some lope and you can continue a taper with that but I advise against it as many people get stuck in that cycle. Also eating right and getting a little exercise to kick start some endorphins will help. I especially recommend you do something fun the days your on bupe and feeling comfortable. Use those as a dry run for what your going to do once the physical sickness passes. The real war is staying off this shit long term.

How does that sound?

That's great thank you. I will make this work!

To clarify if I do have enough sub should I jump off at 1mg or go lower? Ive just checked and actually have 2.5 pills, 20mg. I have the pills and they're difficult to accurately measure into piles so I'm worried about taking inaccurate doses and messing up. How many days am I doing it for? Sorry for all the questions I just want to do this right.

What level of discomfort do you envisage I'll be having during and after the sub? And... last question honestly... can you tell me how this works... as I said in my OP I've read so much contradictory info where some people say doing this just postpones the WD and the WD will start when the subs run out. Yet other people say it works like a charm.

Thank you again cj it means a ton to have something concrete to follow. Ive had my last bit of h now. Here we go onwards and upwards!

 

[WolfCub]

Hi Joe

I cannot go on any kind of maintenance or at least I've been unsuccessful in the past on both sub and methadone maintenance. I just ended up using on top. But that was when I was a semi functional addict. I thought I was in hell but I had no idea how much worse things can get. If the memory of the misery of the last few months of my life isn't enough to keep me away from heroin I don't think anything will.

So are you completely off the opiates now? It's great to hear it and my heart literally sings when I hear that people have managed to get ahead of their addiction. If we can't know happiness without first knowing misery then the happiness of successfully staying off heroin for longterm must be put of this world.

 

[Sunriseoversea]

Hi there, I cant help you with sub cause Ive never used it but Im sending you good toughts and loads of love. You can do it. Keep it up girl!

 

[JoeJunky]

Hi Joe

I cannot go on any kind of maintenance or at least I've been unsuccessful in the past on both sub and methadone maintenance. I just ended up using on top. But that was when I was a semi functional addict. I thought I was in hell but I had no idea how much worse things can get. If the memory of the misery of the last few months of my life isn't enough to keep me away from heroin I don't think anything will.

So are you completely off the opiates now? It's great to hear it and my heart literally sings when I hear that people have managed to get ahead of their addiction. If we can't know happiness without first knowing misery then the happiness of successfully staying off heroin for longterm must be put of this world.

I know it's crazy, I was in hospital for a couple months because of H and I still didn't quit.

But yeah I'm clean from opiates now, I haven't stuck a needle in my arm in over two years but I've only been off sub for just over a month. My next door neighbor shoots H and I have no urge to ask for a hook-up. I did at the beginning though..

It took me some time to get stable on suboxone.

How long have you been on maintenance before going back to H?

Methadone didn't block H for me, so I kept using, to be fair I was against a dosage of something like 200mg a day.

 

[cj]

That's great thank you. I will make this work!

To clarify if I do have enough sub should I jump off at 1mg or go lower? Ive just checked and actually have 2.5 pills, 20mg. I have the pills and they're difficult to accurately measure into piles so I'm worried about taking inaccurate doses and messing up. How many days am I doing it for? Sorry for all the questions I just want to do this right.

What level of discomfort do you envisage I'll be having during and after the sub? And... last question honestly... can you tell me how this works... as I said in my OP I've read so much contradictory info where some people say doing this just postpones the WD and the WD will start when the subs run out. Yet other people say it works like a charm.

Thank you again cj it means a ton to have something concrete to follow. Ive had my last bit of h now. Here we go onwards and upwards!

The lower you go the less severe the withdrawal will be when you stop. You don't have enough sub to worry about prolonging the withdrawal. The basic idea of tapering is too slowly drop the amount of fake endorphins and dopamine your body is getting from opiates as that level drops your body should start amping up its own production of those chemicals to achieve homeostasis. Basically withdrawal is your body being out of homeostasis. You will have some discomfort when you stop all the opiates. How much depends on the size of your habit length of use and a hundred other smaller variables. Its not going to be fun but its going to be a hell of a lot better the cold turkey. You can do this.

So yes if you can get down to just doing a tiny grain of sub a day do it. Break the pill into 4ths that's 2mg apiece then half those 4ths that's 1mg it gets less precise the lower you go but it doesn't have to be perfect. Especially since bupe has such a long half life there will be some halflife overlap with the schedule I set u up

 

[Jabberwocky]

That's great thank you. I will make this work!

To clarify if I do have enough sub should I jump off at 1mg or go lower? Ive just checked and actually have 2.5 pills, 20mg. I have the pills and they're difficult to accurately measure into piles so I'm worried about taking inaccurate doses and messing up. How many days am I doing it for? Sorry for all the questions I just want to do this right.

What level of discomfort do you envisage I'll be having during and after the sub? And... last question honestly... can you tell me how this works... as I said in my OP I've read so much contradictory info where some people say doing this just postpones the WD and the WD will start when the subs run out. Yet other people say it works like a charm.

Thank you again cj it means a ton to have something concrete to follow. Ive had my last bit of h now. Here we go onwards and upwards!

So you have a habit, but it isn't like a lady with the million dollar arm habit. When was the last time you kicked heroin/opiates/opioids?

You won't have been using buprenorphine long enough to become dependent on it, so it doesn't matter if you stop taking it at 2mg/day or 1mg/day (or less, or more). Just try and spread the buprenorphine and tramadol out as long as possible, only taking a little more when you're feeling really shitty.

Also, please not that there isn't the same kind of interaction between tramadol and buprenorphine that there is with classic opiates/opioids and buprenorphine. But I really encourage you to only use one at a time - meaning first use the buprenorphine to get your through the first 4-7 days of withdrawal, then use the tramadol to manage any linger symptoms if necessary.

You have buprenorphine and tramadol, you'll be golden. Have you ever sniffed Subutex before? It is much more effective than using it sublingually, and as you have a very limited supply to work with, I highly encourage you to take it this way.

With the tramadol and buprenorphine, you shouldn't be in any serious discomfort. You will probably feel a bit shitty, but it will be nothing like kicking cold turkey. Do you have any other specific questions?

 

[Stargazer]

Damn TPD - Ive been waiting for you to show up.

Wolfcub-I happened to see your post in another thread by Simco. You started using due to marital issues. I have some choice words for your husband- with white knuckles I will refrain from saying things such as "wanker" as you would say or "jerk off" as I would say. PM me anytime.

My two cents is slow and steady wins the race. I have had two quick detoxes-cold turkey off of 14-18 bags of IV heroin a day. And one of those detoxes was both off h and 300mgs of morphine a day- prescribed due to chronic pain. I had seizures-horrific ones. Both times. I don't drink often or take benzos regularly-so that just fucked the entire "you only have seizures from benzos and alcohol" line of shit. And I never before had seizures.

You just want to get it over with-fast I completely understand. But slow your roll-theres no rush. As long as you aren't shooting dope and doing your taper- its ok. You're human.

Another thing that was always left out for me- is your mental health must be handled or being sober doesn't feel good. My entire life I suffered w severe anxiety and panic attacks, insomnia, etc. About 2yrs ago I was diagnosed w Bipolar 2. Finally it all made sense. I was self-medicating for 14-15yrs. Not all heroin-prescribed meds as well.

I was prescribed Gabapentin(Neurontin) and it was life changing. Its helps w the anxiety and panic attacks. I promise being sober truly is better. However- if my mental health issues weren't addressed- I positively would've become a full-blown h, drug addict again. The anxiety and panic was unbearable.

Im rooting for you-hard girl. It can be done ans it also can be good. No matter how far down you are. I was very very down and got up. I have back slid a bit- but Im getting back up. I wish you all the best life has to offer.

 

[Stargazer]

**edit - I was using 14-21 bags IV of h per day. I know that isn't conducive to living but thats the way it was. I blew about $150,000.00 for about a yr. As my husband was also using that amount.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You've come quite a long way 10Years! That's fucking awesome to get to know you a bit more + good advice to WolfCub. I'll get to your pm shortly.

 

[Stargazer]

TPD- you are a delight to know. You're a wealth of information for all of us.

Its 1:23am- I still can't sleep from a 3wk binge on H Wolfcub. I was steadily indulging in a bit of h after being clean for a yr and a half. I've been buckling under extreme stress. Then I guess I just went nuts. Where I dropped the ball is not having an effective support system in place. The support system I had in place- wasn't I was reaching out - not hiding that I was struggling and messing up but I felt like I was talking crazy pills - noone was listening or taking me serious. Its difficult to get help in the US too. I called a few rehabs asking to get in. I fear a full-blown relapse where Im seriously re-addicted.

The w/d Im experiencing is unpleasant- a sure reminder of what my life was like. The symptoms aren't as intense but I could really do without them. Being clean is so much better than this roller coaster of w/d, self-hatred. I felt like I could do anything when I was clean. Everything goes to shit when using.

I know I don't know every single detail of your situation but I do know you love your daughter-and new granddaughter (Congratulations!) very much. Having to hide feels horrible. And my God, its so much harder and more difficult. Even if your taper took six months- I can almost guarantee you'd feel a whole lot better. You'd begin to learn how to live again, tackle the responsibilities you have to, etc. Be able to be there for your family because you'd be stable. And working on yourself in a positive way.

My mother was a severe alcoholic-she beat the shit out of me and was fixated on me directing her rage and unhappiness at me. Like your daughter, I expected my mother to unrealistically stop drinking immediately or else. My mother died an alcoholic BUT I personally understood addiction myself by that time. Some type of family counseling or even a trusted family member or friend intervening to explain to your daughter you cant magically stop using in one day. And while you're tapering or whatever you choose- you need her support. I hope you're well Wolfcub. All the best to you. -S

 

[Bella Figura]

You've gotten some pretty good advice in here - spread out your subutex as much as possible, taper taper taper - there will be uncomfortableness to deal with, but it won't be anywhere near as bad as going cold turkey.

Worst case scenario you're going to be under the weather for a couple weeks / a month. After that you've the rest of your life and your daughters life with the option of being opiate free.

I was a junky once too, it can be done. It just takes time, patience, self-compassion and determination.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I was a junky once too, it can be done. It just takes time, patience, self-compassion and determination.

Well said!

 

[Bella Figura]

thanks

 

[cj]

Hows it coming wolfcub?

 

[johnnypotsmoker198]

With suboxone, I was able to use the medication for about a 3-4 days depending on my physical addiction at the time then stop cold turkey with no effects.

Mentally, I struggled still with the addiction, but the physical withdraws would pass. I personally never found suboxone to be physically addicting and I have done the taper method as others have suggested.

I used suboxone off and on throughout my addiction. If you are to use suboxone, please use the drug then make sure you remove any reminder of your previous heroin addiction from your house, your phone and your life. This is a key step. Lose contact with those around you and remember why you want to better yourself.

One of the hardest struggles will be the concept of control your mind will play against you. That you can use "responsibly" and not get addicted. That you can control the addiction that this time; that you will smart enough to not allow it to be a problem.

Be strong. Don't allow yourself to succumb to the temptation and self delusions of control after you have found yourself sober. This is key to recovery.

Don't succumb to the illusion of control and self delude yourself that you are somehow cured and that you will be smarter, stronger or will have some new founded ability to control the drug use and not become addicted.

I wish you luck and hope one day you can look back on your addiction as conquering one of the most difficult challenges you will have in your life.