Stimulants ADHD stimulants and heart attack risks, how risky is it?

[sacsky]

What worries me is that both ritalin and also amphetamines mention stuff like heart attack, stroke etc. in their leaflets.
Does this mean that there are cases were healthy young people took MPH or amphetamines in therapeutic doses and then got a heart attack or stroke
out of the blue?
That would be sick!

I also wonder what the risk factors are. I mean is it all about pulse and blood pressure? Or do stimulants raise the risk totally independent of these factors, meaning
that even if you do not get a huge raise on blood pressure you are still at a bigger risk when taking stimulants?

I noticed that sometimes I have some discomfort in the chest area on the left side. This worries me. What if this has something to do with ritalin?

What if for example stimulants, by raising stress hormones, cause the coronary arteries to contract? That would probably count as a risk factor. I wonder if this
has been studied.

 

[pinpoint]

In therapeutic doses in healthy people it's about as common as something like steven-johnson syndrome. Think of how many children and adults are Rx'd ADHD meds, do you think it'd be on the market if it was more prevalent than 1 in x,xxx,xxx? Your chest discomfort is much more likely to be a combination of muscle tension and anxiety.. ever try taking a benzo when that happens?

 

[cj]

at reasonable doses the risk is as close to zero as statistics allow.

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

At rx doses there were several deaths associated with adderall xr in canada
few deaths due to undiagnosed heart problems/conditions
id say personally if you have any kind of cardiovascular issues you should not take any stimulant period beyond caffeine
deaths isnt how you judge danger in taking something
Cause shit ephedrine has a few recorded deaths under its belt
And ephedrine is quite a mild stimulant in common doses.

 

[sacsky]

Damn, this is scary. There is a study by Gould from 2009 where she found a link in children (!) between stims and sudden death! I am shocked.
I thought stims were safe in therapeutic doses I even asked my cardiologist if I can take ritalin cause a few years ago I had one episode of atrial flutter which landed me in the ER.
This sucks.
But if I don't have any trouble with ritalin then would this mean that amphetamines in small doses would also be safe? Or is it basically impossible to tell?

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

There are no risks. If you have heart problems then you are going to die just as easily from exercising too hard or just randomly because your heart is going to give out anyway.

Check your heart with the doctor and see. If you have no heart problems, it won't give you any. I've done stimulants in very high doses and also done extensive physical activity on high doses.

The key is to listen to your body and know the signals correctly. Problem is if you have anxiety you will think you are having a heart attack when it is just a panic attack, and even a single heart palpitation will freak you out.

So you need to face your anxiety of it first, which sounds like hypochondria to me, then stimulants are safe to use, even in high doses. Just start small.

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

Damn, this is scary. There is a study by Gould from 2009 where she found a link in children (!) between stims and sudden death! I am shocked.
I thought stims were safe in therapeutic doses I even asked my cardiologist if I can take ritalin cause a few years ago I had one episode of atrial flutter which landed me in the ER.
This sucks.
But if I don't have any trouble with ritalin then would this mean that amphetamines in small doses would also be safe? Or is it basically impossible to tell?

There is no link, that is psuedoscience. People who get "sudden death" will get it regardless of the drugs they use. Millions of children use stimulants, only a few hundred have ever died suddenly. Proof right there.

Basically you can get an EKG done, bloodwork, check your heart rate and blood pressure. If it is fine, you will be fine. Your heart rate WILL go up with stimulants, but it also will go up with anxiety or exercising.

Exercise is the best thing (I recommend walking, swimming, any light cardio), because it lowers blood pressure.

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

At rx doses there were several deaths associated with adderall xr in canada
few deaths due to undiagnosed heart problems/conditions
id say personally if you have any kind of cardiovascular issues you should not take any stimulant period beyond caffeine
deaths isnt how you judge danger in taking something
Cause shit ephedrine has a few recorded deaths under its belt
And ephedrine is quite a mild stimulant in common doses.

They aren't "associated". Undiagnosed heart problem = the killer, not the drug.

The reason these drugs kill people is because it is just enough to do them in, but they would've eventually died regardless.

However, if you diagnose a cardiovascular problem early enough, there are some treatments available that can allow you to even use stimulants.

Think of your heart as a car motor. If it is having problems, it will break down eventually. If you speed or go off-roading with a faulty engine, it will just break down quicker than if you had run it at regular speeds on smooth terrain, but even doing that the motor will still go out, just like everyone will eventually die regardless. But if you fix your vehicle's motor, you can go off-roading or speeding, even if it does wear your repaired motor down.

The heart really is the same way. A healthy cardiovascular system won't just stop working for no reason. Stimulants may damage your cardiovascular system long term, but no more (and probably a lot less actually) than intense cardiovascular exercise or strength training with heavy weights. But there is even some evidence to suggest the opposite; working the heart harder actually might improve it long term, but nobody really knows, so there's no conclusive data. They used to think saturated fat causes heart attacks, now there's evidence to suggest it helps to prevent them. There's no correct answers, a problem we must all admit to. Nobody really knows anything much, and science doesn't even have any consensus in regards to health.

 

[sacsky]

Hello,
but what about sudden arrhythmias? You can have a healthy heart and still get heart rhythm disorders from using too much alcohol,caffeine, stimulants.
What if you go into rhythm disorder which can be life threatening? One time I had atrial flutter but this only happened once years ago. It was scary. Suddenly my
heart was at 180. I spent a few days in a clinic where they did ultrasound and everything non invasive.
I asked my doc if I could take ritalin and he said yes. But I worry that amphetamines could be more risky and unhealthy for the heart.
I mean they raise stress hormones right? Then doesnt this mean that stimulants are like having stress and stress in unhealthy?

 

[TheLostBoys]

I've tried Adderall several times, my experiences are total opposite of everyone else.......

I get very hungry & I'm a sleep within 2 hours while my friend can't eat at all & is up 30 hours straight......

All these stimulants along with coke are terrible for your heart & blood pressure.......for the life of me, I can't understand why doctors prescribe this shit to young kids with ADHD........there's gotta be something out there much safer & possibly herbal like.

 

[Dysphoric]

I've tried Adderall several times, my experiences are total opposite of everyone else.......

I get very hungry & I'm a sleep within 2 hours while my friend can't eat at all & is up 30 hours straight......

All these stimulants along with coke are terrible for your heart & blood pressure....

You can't even compare the two -- cocaine is severely cardiotoxic due to blocking K+ channels, increase in L-type Ca2+, and inhibiting Na+ influx. All of which can lead to myocardial infarction, fatal arrhythmias, and so on. Amphetamines are actually pretty forgiving in terms of cardiotoxicity (if at all cardiotoxic), especially at lower doses.

Only people who should worry about amphetamines, and cardiovascular concerns should be people with pre-existing conditions, or extreme exercise while on them.

& possibly herbal like.

What difference would it make if it were natural or not?

 

[romealone]

While I agree that at therapeutic doses, the chances of someone having a cardiac event who doesn't have a congenital cardiac defect, or a serious pre-existing serious arrythmia, is extraordinarily low. Consider the fact that recreational meth addicts with tolerance will often take doses of 100mg or more in a single dose (note this is quite a high dose, but even casual "weekend warrior" meth users will commonly dose in the 50mg range). Consider that meth is about twice as potent as adderall. Now obviously street meth is not 100% pure, street meth can often have surprisingly high purity (not uncommon to be 80% pure or more). For the sake of ease of in my example, assuming 100% pure meth, 50mg is roughly equal to 100mg of adderall..while I know many who have taken considerably more than 100mg of adderall over the course of the day, 100mg of adderall would be considered a much higher dose than a standard therapeutic dose for ADD/ADHD.

My point is that even at these doses, heart attacks in people without underlying cardiac conditions are extraordinarily rare-even when going on a multiple day binge where one gets no sleep and takes over 100mg per day for days straight.

Bottom line...very very unlikely to suffer a cardiac event from therapeutic doses of stims used for ADD, even when using for days on end at doses several times higher than the typical presribed dose.

 

[sacsky]

Do prescription amphetamines damage the brain? I often read warnings about stims saying they fry the brain or cause long term damage. That would be scary.

Do people who use meth not get anything typical side effects? For example does the blood pressure not get very high?

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

It's quite risky, if you start with higher than a regular dose ( I started with Adderall XR 25mg, the white/orange ones) and then when the government didn't want to pay for it, demanding papers from my GP asking why I need Adderall XR (no IR here), I just said, would you script me Dexedrine instead, it's a lot less dangerous for the heart too (not even a joke) and there I left with a script for 2x10mg dex spansules in the morning and 2x5mg IR at 3-4pm. So 60 of each every month. If you're overweight, it might get you into being more active, but don't overdo it. Especially if you have a perverted girlfriend who likes to go on "marathons" with your medication...And yep, Dexedrine are free, for everyone, no under 18 then over 18 it becomes an "exception medication". Vyvanse is an exception medication for EVERYBODY, even teenagers here. But they can be scripted Dexedrine instead by their GP. Hilarious.

Those days are over since I got on methadone 2 years ago (was on it 11 months, now suboxone). Methadone and dexies didn't seem to agree together, both being bad for the heart, so I said eff it and just stockpile my dexedrine scripts since a couple years now, the things scare me that much now. It did help me beat 2 out of 3 classes needed for me to finally get my Masters....didn't happen, there's one class I'm just never gonna be able to finish, amped up or not (Physical Chemistry III).

I forgot to say, the amount of times I had chest pain from Adderall was everyday. Dexedrine after exagerating for 2-3 days, I'd get bad feels, like really horrible chest tightening.

I mostly meant that it does make you speed through life, you have your body grow older faster than it would otherwise when taking amps daily.
I did take some Magnesium Glycerophosphate(sic), a very bioavailable form of magnesium, it also contained 3 or 4 other forms of magnesium, 500mg daily, it does help protecting the heart, nerves, stomach. Also L-Arginine is a good idea if you're planning on moving around on amps...it's good for circulation, although kinda expensive if bought at the regular natural products area of a pharmacy. It is the amino acid that the inventors of Viagra studied and try and recreate something artificial that works better just for one part of the body....L-Arginine works well for that, but I mean, everyone here who ever did amps knows how it can get you to get cold feet/needles and pins feelings in the feet or hands sometimes, L-Arginine+Magnesium helps making all that go away.

What is weird is that eating/snorting typical canadian meth bombs never felt as bad for my heart, unless it was something like the last time I bought street speed...that Molson Dry beer cap shaped pill almost killed me (I'll never forget those 5 extremely loud and out of control thumps inside my chest). When I decided to call 911, they stopped, but I still felt shitty and awake....like what PMMA is supposed to do. Called the guy who sold em to me, I would get 15 methbombs at once, they were always as advertised, although the designs changed often and someday he must have decided to get rid of the shit people didn't like. I called him to tell him those pills were shit and almost had me in the hospital and there was no way i was gonna "move" them, he started yelling at me incoherent shit and something about it's normal to have your heart beat fast while on speed. That was a while ago, I don't move anything since the last decade But yeah it was horrendous. It's what made me go to my doc and tell him that I am ADD:Inattentive diagnosed but never did much about it, Ritalin gave me tremors and nightmares (but that might have been the combo of it + the trazodone he had given me for sleep...idiotic doctor, it wasn't long even then in 2001 that I figured out online that ritalin + trazodone = bad idea. Trazodone itself I'll say is a bad idea. So we went with something else and I told about that.

 

[JustADudeYep]

There is a way it COULD happen but not very likely. I mean you'd most likely have to be going nuts, working your heart to the core and also probably not in the greatest of shape for this to happen.

On a flip side; my friend's dad was 49 years old, just saw his first Yankees game, was a very laid back man, and on the subway back from the game he just dropped and passed away from a coronary / heart attack. So you honestly just never know.

Btw, I get that same feeling in my chest and I am on ritalin. I am guessing it's because it probably picks up our heart rate at least somewhat. Same type of deal with caffeine though.

 

[sacsky]

Hello,
why is dextroamphetamine better for the heart than adderall?

And do amphetamines make you age faster even in therapeutic doses? That would be really scary. How do they do this? By speeding up the metabolism?

I also wonder when you take ritalin or amph and it increases heart rate then is this already unhealthy cause it means extra stress for the heart?
Or is this the same as doing sports and having a faster pulse?

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

The lack of levo-amphetamine.

Look into the 23% of levo-amphetamine in Adderall...all it causes is PNS stimulation, nothing in your brain, it's what makes one have tachycardia easier on Adderall than Dexedrine.

 

[sacsky]

The lack of levo-amphetamine.

Look into the 23% of levo-amphetamine in Adderall...all it causes is PNS stimulation, nothing in your brain, it's what makes one have tachycardia easier on Adderall than Dexedrine.

I read in a book from Stephen Stahl that L-Amph releases NE while D-Amph releases DA.
Then wouldn't antidepressants with NE reuptake inhibition not have similar side effects as L-Amph?
I'm currently on 90mg cymbalta (SNRI) and this shit doesn't help my depression at all.
Wellbutrin (NDRI) also didn't do anything.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Antidepressants are a russian roulette, there's so many of them.

My mom had success with up to 90mg of Cymbalta too, but then when she felt better tapered herself in a way her doc approved, one day took 60mg, then none the next, etc. until out of them. Cymbalta not being in generic form in Canada is a rare thing and that shit's expensive, even if her insurance pays 80%, it's 80% 2-3weeks after you have to buy the crap. I dunno, it's in the family of Effexor....wouldn't touch with an air sealed antimicrobial plastic covered 100 foot pole.

 

[sacsky]

You wouldnt touch Effexor or Cymbalta?
I think cymbalta can also cause withdrawal issues. Oh boy.
Before I went on cymbalta I had brain zaps from lexapro for over 3 weeks until I started cymbalta.
I worry that when I get off cymbalta the brain zaps will come back.