About Meth.vs.Amphetamine

[Biscuit]

Just to get some clarification on the above comments:
i presume phase-dancer is saying that 2.5 points of street speed (cut down, unpure etc) regardless of its chemical identity (d-amphet, d-meth, dl-meth etc) is a standard nightly dose.
That i would agree with.
But not 250mg of pure dexamphetamine surely?
as sirLSD said, 50 dexies is an ENORMOUS amount; even over several days. I'd suggest 50 in a night would put u on a slab.
As for meth 50-100 mg of relatively pure stuff will have a mid-range user dialling 000.
4 dexies taken orally at once produce notable effects in me and thats a meagre 20mg.
I'd never even consider more than 4 at once.

 

[phase_dancer]

I agree that 250mg Dex would well be lethal for most, but perhaps not necessarily for a chronic user.
From Goodman and Gilmans 6th Ed page 162 (referring to amphetamine, dl I guess)
"...severe reactions have occurred with 30mg, yet doses of 400 to 500mg are not uniformly fatal. Larger doses can be tolerated after chronic use."
Biscuit, as for 50mg of pure meth, I agree this would also be dangerous, but it was once prescribed in doses of 5-15mg /day. If a developed tolerance to meth is similar to that of amp, then it may be reasonable to expect a chronic user could tolerate such amounts (>50mg) without convulsions and coma. There are probably many factors governing this, not least the relative toxicity of each.
Can anyone comment on this?
While they may not be common, there are those that do consume several points of HQ base over a weekend.
I’ve dealt with several cases of methamphetamine overdose. All were characterized by intense anxiety, paranoia and fear. All recovered, although those who were suffering cardiovascular related difficulties were referred to medical personnel. Most had taken really large amounts -several points - through various forms of administration. Perhaps not pharmaceutical grade but still a lot. mmm.. guess it's all about love and tolerance.
Biscuit, will reply to your email soon.

 

[SirLSD]

phase dancer, do u remember what medication those that received medical assistance were given?
SirLSD
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: SirLSD ]

 

[Soma]

A friend of mine accidently drank too much water water with crystal meth in it (Guy: Its ICE WATER!!. Girl: (loud music) HUH? Guy: ICED WATER Girl: WHAAAT? COLD YEAH GREAT I'M SO THIRSTY! *GULP GULP GULP* Guy: NO WAIT...
She got taken to hospital emergancy or casualty by friends and I believe they actually went the pethadine route for some reason.
I'll ask her when I next see her and bump this up as a reply.

 

[phase_dancer]

Of the cases referred to St Johns, I am aware of only one that required hospitalisation. Sorry I can’t give you details on what she may have been given.
The others, although seeming to us to be quite serious, have all to my knowledge, simply been placed under observation and then released. One may have been administered a urine acidifier. It was discussed but I was never told if it had been given.
According to the G&G text mentioned previously, excretion of amphetamine is negligible if urine is alkaline. It would be doubtful though that this test would be performed in the field.
I’ve often thought about having ammonium chloride in the first aid kit, but as with the giving of any pharmaceutical from one (unauthorized) person to another, it is not permitted. Even paramedics have to fill out a small form before they can give a panadol to someone with sunburn at a rave.
There is always Vitamin C but I’m not sure how effective it is, as only a small proportion is excreted as acidic metabolites.
The text says chlorpromazine is/was given in acute overdose, as it acts both as a CNS symptoms treatment and an alpha-receptor blocking agent (reduces blood pressure). A nitrite can also be given if hypertension is marked.

 

[ruski]

I appreciate the quality of this post. It has been many months since I have been able to read through an entire thread and actually learn something or be totally engrossed in the discussion without being deterred by a stupid comment somewhere along the line.

 

[Plague Bearer]

The Merck Manual, one of the most respected medical publications in the world, reports: "Even massive doses are rarely fatal. Long-term users have reportedly injected as much as 15,000 mg. of amphetamines in 24 hours without observable acute illness." [3]

 

[popper]

I've read that Merck entry before. 15,000mg is absolutely huge - I'm not saying it didn't happen but that is pretty hard to believe and it did say "reportedly" i.e. hearsay.
I'd love to see someone do that - it would beat anything on TV.
They didn't mention the cut of the gear. So there may have been as little as 1.5g if it was 10%.
15,000mg of pharmaceutical d-methamphetamine in 24 hours would have to kill most people or at least cause damage to the heart.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: popper ]
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: popper ]
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: popper ]

 

[Plague Bearer]

I would imagine (but I don't really know) that if it were in a medical journal of such repute then it could well be pharmecutical grade amphetamines and that these could be clinical trials.
Anyway, if I could try and steer this discussion back towards its original direction;
Maybe I'm just a stubborn mule but I'm still not personally satisfied with the current explanations for the varying quality in speed which is available. And I propose an experiment which should theoretically solve all the questions.
People seem satisifed that 99% of speed in Australia or Melbourne is meth. And therefore the varying degrees of quality are accounted for by the degree of cut it is sold with and possibly the presence of an l isomer instead of a d isomer in some of the product.
IF this is so then a simple alkaloid extraction of a number of samples of speed sold on the street should all yield VERY similar product. The filler and rubbish would be removed and should leave nothing but pure methamphetamine. Naturally the finally quantity yielded will vary as greatly as the number of different samples used.
This process may have some other value simply in that one could feel happier and safer with the product they use and have a better, cleaner experience with superior powder.
[ 07 February 2002: Message edited by: Plague Bearer ]

 

[popper]

There is simple way for you to believe us.
Buy an EZ test X-treme and test all the wizz you can find for a secondary and primary amine. You will always come up positive for a methylamine (secondary amine)!
Again...if it's made from sudafed they can ONLY make methamphetamine from it. Sudafed is a major supply route (may be the biggest?? if you include illicitly imported ephedrine precursor).

 

[Lord Kaos]

I aint no chem expert, but I've always found the best way 2 tell good meth is the size of the crystals...the bigger they are the harder u fall!
everytime i get fine white crystals and the taste is bearable the meth is average (cut up). When the chystals are big and fat, look more clear than white and the taste is shocking then the meth is fucking awesome.
The only time I get meth no. 2 is wen I get straight from the chef, everyone else stomps it.

 

[phase_dancer]

Plague, the l isomer is not produced in meth made by reduction of pseudo. Remember ephedrine has the amine stuck on - in the right place - so the molecule is already shaped to give the d isomer as the only product.
It’s different when meth is made from phenyl-2-propanone (P2P). Here the chemist is starting with a geometrically planer bond (the C=O of the P2P or ketone). When adding the amine, an intermediate imine first forms (C=NH), which is then catalytically reduced. i.e. both the C and the N get an extra hydrogen (H).
The imine is also planner, so as the N & C accept the H2 (reduction) and lose the double bond (=), the resulting H2 on the nitrogen can take one position or the other i.e. the N-C bond rotates to the left or the right, producing the l or d isomer. Sorry I haven’t time to draw this out.
For a more detailed understanding, check out this old post.
http://www.bluelight.ru/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=35&t=000196&p=
Not all chemical reactions such as this give a racemic mixture (50/50). Amp. from P2P does, but most molecules give uneven amounts of isomers. Reasons for this get quite complicated. It has to do with ion pairs and kinetics.
The unwanted things in meth from pseudo are most likely to be any of the following:
Un-reacted pseudo (most common)
iodine
phosporic acid
and small amounts of (or none hopefully), aldol products, dimers, and a host of possible derivatives. Oh, and sulphuric acid if it’s a sulphate salt.

 

[Plague Bearer]

phase_dancer - While I was not aware of (and still do not fully coomprehend) the fine scientific details, I am aware that the Pseudo+iod+RP reaction will only result in d-meth. And that it is p2p which has 50/50 results.
I mentioned this other reaction which I'm sure is barely used to try and explain why crystal may still have lower purity.
popper - My experience with the EZ Extemem tester has been inconclusive. As I've had samples testing for both meth & amp, usually towards the amp end of the spectrum. Does this suggest manufacture from eph?

 

[popper]

plague bearer: Are you sure you didn't the robadope and siomon's mixed up? I'm having trouble believing you are getting more amphetamine than methamphetamine.
If you are getting more amphetamine then that suggests manufacture from benzaldehye or
p-2-p.
Here's the weird thing, with p-2-p it's more cost and dose efficient to make meth. This is the industrial meth method (multi kilo batches - that brought up a nice picture in your head didn't it?), so that's why we get more meth.
Have you also noticed that meth ia WAY more common to come up in pill lab test sites. On a european lab site there were a few amphets. On the american ones get pretty much only wizz - can't remember seeing amph.
Have you ever had wizz that smelt like dead ants (formic acid)? This is p-2-p wizz!
Phase dancer - nice post man.