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Abortion: For and Against

claire22 said:

If abortion is outlawed, all that will happen is that 'backyard abortions' will occur again, endangering the womans life.
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Completely beside the point.

Should we legalize rape on the basis that it still happens despite its illegality?

The issue is whether or not the fetus ought to have rights (which is simply a matter a line-drawing).

I'm pro-life, but admittedly, there are almost infinite places of where any particular individual can decide to draw his or her line.

But, to quote my all-time favorite law professor, "Well, we've GOT draw it somewhere!"

And I simply don't buy the argument that life begins at birth, and also reject the "viability" argument, as well - how many 1-month olds could actually survive on their own?

Do those of you who are pro-legalization-of-abortion REALLY think that the pain inflicted upon a 1 month old baby who is "murdered" is qualitatively different than the pain that is inflicted on a 5 month old fetus who is merely "aborted?"

Again - we've got to draw the line somewhere - and in my opinion, whenever that being begins to FEEL PAIN (emotional, physical, or otherwise) is when I think that the act becomes despicable.
 
^ I don't think it's completely beside the point. If enacting a law doesn't do more than express the state's disapproval, and might actually increase the damage from the activity, then it's not a law that should be enacted. The point of a law should be to discourage the act and prevent the damage. Your rape example isn't accurate - it should've been, 'Should we legalize rape if its illegality makes it more frequent and violent?' I'm not trying to say the effect of abortion laws are cut and dry like this of course, but just that Claire's point isn't irrelevent.

How do you determine if a fetus can feel pain?
 
Papa said:

^ I don't think it's completely beside the point.

If enacting a law doesn't do more than express the state's disapproval, and might actually increase the damage from the activity, then it's not a law that should be enacted.
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Completely disagree.

Ethics, and our society's strong stance that we are going to strive to be as an ethical society as possible, is, to me, at least, MUCH more important than the statistics as to how strong of a deterrent a particular law is.


The point of a law should be to discourage the act and prevent the damage.
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Those certainly are two of MAIN points as to why we have laws.

There are others, however, such as the good feeling that the members of society enjoy in the knowledge that the rules of their society are FAIR.


Your rape example isn't accurate - it should've been,

'Should we legalize rape if its illegality makes it more frequent and violent?
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Agreed - that would have been a much better analogy.


How do you determine if a fetus can feel pain?
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I, personally, cannot determine at what exact point a fetus can feel pain.

How, may I ask, have you determined that a fetus CANNOT feel pain?

Because, if, hypothetically, the entire scientific community in the entire world can't come up with the answer to that pretty darned important question, then don't you think that we ought to err on the side of NOT allowing someone (particularly, someone who assumed the risk of putting themselves in this situation) to knowingly MAYBE cause extreme pain?
 
Keeping abortion legal is telling people that its ok to be irresponsible. It is now becoming socially acceptable to kill an unborn child. This is what the world is becoming. It makes me very sad.


I hear this argument that the unborn infant is just a mass of cells. However true in a manner of thinking, so are we all masses of cells.

I do not like the distancing people are developing from this cruel, murderous act. That is a child, at any age. A living, breathing, conscious (to a degree) baby with a beating heart.

...

If you create life, that is a decision that you made (that is the purpose of sexual intercourse), and it is now time for you to make a noble decision, and let your child have its life.
 
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So if the outcome of enacting a law is actually the exact opposite of what that law is attempting to do (e.g. making drugs illegal actually increases drug harm) it should be enacted anyway for optics? Fair rules? Rules that do the opposite of what they're supposed to aren't fair - they're STUPID.

Back on topic: I meant that maybe it's impractical to try and assess when a fetus feels pain, so maybe that's not a great way to assess abortion. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_pain: "Because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it may be "impossible to know" when painful experiences are perceived, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established." To me, fetal pain sounds like a bit of a red herring.

Would you be for abortion if it were for sure painless?
 
Im for, most definitly.

Abortion helps keep the population down, end of.

Besides, the 'baby' doesn't know what that this world has burger king, lcd tv's and the internet.. Its not like its a conscious being that has enjoyed life, its a brainless, mindless noob who cant think and doesnt know what its missing out on.
 
Making the killing of unborn infants legal will increase shuch behaviors tenfold. If the act were completely (aside from victims of rape and severe health risks on part of the mother) illegal, we would be saving countless lives in the process. Abortion is an act of genocide to the lower classes. The massacre of future generations sisters and brothers.
 
Yes, children are considered a liability instead of an asset these days. Do they really deserve to die for it?
 
^ Sorry, I was off topic before.

The issue of abortion isn't about saving lives. It's about what constitutes a life, that is when the fetus becomes more than an extension of its mother's body.
 
How can anyone say, in a scientific manner, that a fetus is not alive? How did we all come to be?
 
Is a sperm and an egg alive the millisecond after conception? If so, what specific criteria make it alive?
 
The fact that it exists as a life and continues to develop as a human. Not into a human, as a human.
 
^ Most of what you said is just that it is alive, which is not more than reasserting your original statement.

Why is a sperm-and-egg a millisecond after conception alive? Because they can 'continue to develop as a human'?

Well, the sperm-and-egg need an extremely specific environment to develop into a human (i.e. a functioning womb, etc). A sperm itself can 'continue to develop as a human' too given the right circumstances (i.e. meeting an egg and hanging out in a womb,etc), but we don't consider sperm alive (or else I'd get arrested for genocide daily). Again, a sperm-and-egg do not in any way just spontaneously unfold into a human: they need a lot more things.

Why is a sperm-and-egg alive while the individual sperm is not?

I should point out that abortion makes me uncomfortable and I'm not championing anything here. You just seem to think that what constitutes a life is simple, which I think is wrong.
 
When i did mushies for the first time i said 'Humans, we breath in life, and breath out death'... It was halarious at the time and everyone laughed but when i really think about it thats exactly it, we breath in life, and breath out death, and we are alive from the moment we take our first breath to the moment we breath out our last.

I dunno, thats just how i see it.
 
This should make you uncomfortable. We are speaking of the notion of destroying a human life. To answer your question, the sperm and egg are active components of male and female, however are not a life while separated. Upon conception is when human life begins.
 
Why should talking about destroying human life make me(or anyone actually) uncomfortable? Cause it makes YOU uncomfortable? So i guess if leather chairs make you uncomfortable they should make me uncomfortable yeah? 8)
 
mrjackjones said:
This should make you uncomfortable. We are speaking of the notion of destroying a human life. To answer your question, the sperm and egg are active components of male and female, however are not a life while separated. Upon conception is when human life begins.
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Heh, you're doing a lot of asserting and not really answering the questions. It's clear that you think a fertilized egg is a life. It's not clear why.

Can I combine any 'active components of male and female' and call it a life?

Again, this is not straightforward...
 
moonyham said:
Why should talking about destroying human life make me(or anyone actually) uncomfortable? Cause it makes YOU uncomfortable? So i guess if leather chairs make you uncomfortable they should make me uncomfortable yeah? 8)
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The reason why I said that is in response to this quote by papasomni:



^ Most of what you said is just that it is alive, which is not more than reasserting your original statement.

Why is a sperm-and-egg a millisecond after conception alive? Because they can 'continue to develop as a human'?

Well, the sperm-and-egg need an extremely specific environment to develop into a human (i.e. a functioning womb, etc). A sperm itself can 'continue to develop as a human' too given the right circumstances (i.e. meeting an egg and hanging out in a womb,etc), but we don't consider sperm alive (or else I'd get arrested for genocide daily). Again, a sperm-and-egg do not in any way just spontaneously unfold into a human: they need a lot more things.

Why is a sperm-and-egg alive while the individual sperm is not?

I should point out that abortion makes me uncomfortable and I'm not championing anything here. You just seem to think that what constitutes a life is simple, which I think is wrong.
 
Papa said:
Heh, you're doing a lot of asserting and not really answering the questions. It's clear that you think a fertilized egg is a life. It's not clear why.

Can I combine any 'active components of male and female' and call it a life?

Again, this is not straightforward...
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Is a fertilized egg not the beginning of life? Why would I think anything different?
 
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