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AA/NA Discussion Mega Thread (merged)
- Thread starter JennaHermosaCA
- Start date
I'm nervous but it all seems to be coming together. I'm going to be fine. Tonight I will listen and assimilate.
Mariposa
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2002
- Messages
- 24,741
^Great. I'll probably do the tl;dr version in the alcoholism thread, but my friend and I were very warmly welcomed. There were probably 30 people at the meeting, which is about 4 blocks from my house. It was a beginners' meeting and open. No smoking inside, but that is state law. Tons of coffee and tea, of course - these people take their caffeine seriously!
People ranged in age from 18-really old, probably half were under 35. I was not expecting the offer of a sponsor right away. I got THREE. I told them I would think about whether I could further commit after attending next Tuesday's atheists/agnostics meeting, which a LOT of the younger crowd attend according to an aspiring actor who offered to go out for dinner after. My friend had school in the morning, so I said we could do that Tuesday tentatively.
I found the vibe to be overall very positive and non-demanding. It was definitely NOT boring.
I may be back before Tuesday but definitely Tuesdays and Thursdays for now.
People ranged in age from 18-really old, probably half were under 35. I was not expecting the offer of a sponsor right away. I got THREE. I told them I would think about whether I could further commit after attending next Tuesday's atheists/agnostics meeting, which a LOT of the younger crowd attend according to an aspiring actor who offered to go out for dinner after. My friend had school in the morning, so I said we could do that Tuesday tentatively.
I found the vibe to be overall very positive and non-demanding. It was definitely NOT boring.
I may be back before Tuesday but definitely Tuesdays and Thursdays for now.
PureLife
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2005
- Messages
- 2,659
People need more options
Alcoholics Anonymous: A Beguile Organization with ultraconservative views
This is a rant on how in America, the ONLY treatment option we have is Alcoholics Anonymous. 97% of inpatient and outpatient drug rehabilitation programs are 12 step related. What if AA/NA just isn't for you? What if it doesn't work for you? Here's some statistics and other articles to read up on. How this country is praising a program that's success rate is 3% ( some studies say its more like 1%) Yet 40% of people that get clean do it on their own, and stay clean. So let me get this straight, 40% of people clean did it their own way, and only 3% of people who used the AA/NA 12-step method got clean. hmmmmmm
*****Disclaimer**********
I see NO problem with people going to AA/NA or other related self help groups, if it works for you, thats AWESOME. That is essentially what thiis is about, what works for you.
The 12-step success rate is showing to be approximately 3 percent. Yes, that’s right… only 3 percent! (Brown,Treatment Doesn’t Work, 1991). Here are some more startling statistics: 45% of the people who attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings never return after their first meeting.
• 95% never return after the first year.
• 5% retention rate (Based on Alcoholics Anonymous World Services' own statistics).
• 93-97% of conventional drug rehabs and alcohol treatment centers are 12-step or AA based, so those who leave AA to look elsewhere, such as conventional alcohol and drug treatment for solutions, are essentially rejoining AA!AA hardly sounds like a “proven method,” let alone one that works for most people. So, if only about 5% of the people are getting the help that they need, what about the 95% of the people who are not being helped? That is the purpose of this article… to provide much needed awareness to individuals, rehabilitation centers, hospitals, sober livings, and even 12-step programs themselves so that people with substance abuse problems can be helped.
The bottom line is this… is the goal to get alcoholics and addicts into AA or NA or CA, or is it to actually get them help? source: http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/647/1/AA-Is-Not-The-Only-Way/Page1.html
There's something else that bothers me in AA and other 12 step groups. The disease model that is used by 12-step and AA/NA. Here's a great way to explain it, source at bottom.
One of the unique features of this disease is that the effects of the disease are usually first felt by people other than the one suffering from the disease. For most diseases, the sick person feels bad. If the sick person doesn’t feel bad, nobody else feels bad. If alcoholism is a disease, it must be a mental illness. The mentally ill often deny they are ill and the first identification of a mental illness is often when others notice that the afflicted person is behaving in unconventional, bizarre or self-destructive ways. Like other mental illnesses, there is no blood or urine test for alcoholism. There is no physical marker the healer can look for to identify the disease. All the signs are behavioral.
Unlike mental illness, however, alcohol abuse is self-inflicted and might better be called brain abuse.
One cynical view of the matter is that alcoholism as a disease is not a matter of discovery, but of definition. It is a disease because it has been declared to be so by the very ones who profess to have the cure for the disease. How fortunate for the world that those who define the disease also define the cure! Actually, they don’t have a "cure." They have a remedy. The inventors of the disease also declare that no one can be cured of this disease. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You haven’t had a drink in fifty years, you say. That is not evidence that you are no longer an alcoholic. A cure would mean an end to treatment. A remedy means a lifelong income for the SAT provider. The treatment usually begins by being repeatedly told that the first step to recovery is the declaration: I am an alcoholic. For the sinner to be saved, the sinner must first admit he is a sinner. (I am not claiming that A.A. uses the word 'sin' or 'sinner' or 'grace' or that there is any official use of theological terminology.) To refuse to do so is proof the sick one is "in denial" and without grace. The only way to prove you are not in denial is to admit you are an alcoholic. This is only phase one. The next phase is public confession: the subject must declare before others how they have degraded themselves and betrayed their humanity through substance abuse. The point, I suppose, is to get the substance abuser to believe he or she is hopelessly addicted or diabolically possessed (or both) and can be helped only by abandoning oneself to a "Higher Power."
Neither A.A. nor many other SATs are based on science, nor do they seem interested in doing any scientific studies which might test whether the treatment they give is effective. A.A. members know A.A. works, so they don’t need studies to verify the effectiveness of the program. They have very vivid testimonials from people like Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., of hopeless alcoholics whose only salvation was a religious experience. But others might like to know how many don’t stay and go through the program? How many go through it, but leave? We only hear about the successes, not the failures, because the failures aren’t counted; they aren’t around to be counted. We won’t read about any comparisons with non-A.A. programs, nor will we hear about those substance abusers who quit drinking or drugs without any treatment at all. They didn’t need a "Higher Power" or the group’s help to quit; they did it on their own. How is that possible? If alcoholism is a disease for which there is no cure, and which requires the substance abuser to give oneself over to a "Higher Power," how do some people quit abusing alcohol or drugs on their own? This should not be possible if either the A.A. philosophy or the disease theory is correct.
We know that many studies have found that many people who abuse alcohol have stopped the abuse on their own. The studies vary in quality and the results are wildly disparate, but most of them found at least 40% success rates with no treatment at all. Getting data from A.A. is not easy, but their own people say that they have a success rate of about 40% (Salerno 2005: 142). The probability is that the success rate is much lower.
In any case, if alcoholism isn’t a disease, then it is foolish to seek a "cure" for it. It is foolish to have treatment centers with patients who are "suffering from alcoholism," if it isn't a disease that needs to be treated, but a behavior that needs to be changed.
Even if alcoholism is a sin and a matter of self-control, it is especially foolish to treat all alcoholics with the A.A. 12-step program. All alcoholics don’t come from the same mold. They are not all physically addicted. They are not all psychologically addicted. They are not all addicted. They are not all victims. They are not all diseased. They are not all hopelessly without any self-control. They are not all completely irrational and incompetent. They are not all mentally ill. They don’t all need therapy or medication. There are probably many good programs besides those based on the "disease" or the "sinner" models of the alcoholic. Substance abusers who want to get back some control in their lives might check out some of these other programs and not feel it’s either A.A. or a "chemical dependency" program or nothing. Although, there is a good chance that no program, with the support of people who love you, and a sincere effort on your part, could be just as beneficial as any of the organized substance abuse programs.
One final note: it seems rather curious that Bill Wilson, founder of A.A., credited people like Carl Jung and William James’s Varieties of Religious Experience for helping him see that "ego collapse" is the common denominator in conversion experiences and that such an experience was the one the alcoholic must have in order to reform. (Wilson also wrote fondly to Jung that some in A.A. had become devotees of psychic powers and the I Ching, a favorite of Jung’s.) Jung had simply thought that some people were hopeless and therapy could do them no good, but perhaps religious devotion could help them. James catalogued experiences as part of his pragmatism: the truth of religion is in its fruits, its effects on a person’s life. The idea is attractive if you keep one eye shut and ignore the Jim Joneses, Jerry Falwells, David Koreshes, Peter Popovs, and Pat Robertsons of the world. The idea might seem true to someone whose selective memory ignores all the alcoholic priests, priestesses, and devoted churchgoers.
I know this might sound like this is some drug induced rant. But its not, and I am quite sober. Last night I wrote literally 27 pages of information regarding Alcoholics Anonymous. I was court ordered to attend Alcoholics Anonymous?Narcotics anonymous. This was a year ago. I did my 90 meetings in 90 days, got a sponsor. Some days I even went to 2 or 3 meetings. But It did NOT work for me. I used during my 90/90. I lied to to my sponsor. I even took commitments ( coffee, clean up, all that shit) hell, i even SPOKE at meetings, In the end it just wasn't for me, it didn't keep me clean.
Last Wednesday my probation officer said that I need to come back with my signed AA slips ( proof i went) or she will violate me ( violate me for going to a program that simply hasn't kept me clean???). Anyway, is there ANY recovery programs out there that do NOT use the 12 step recovery model, and if possible, the disease model. Just, through some groups my way I could attend in my area, just give my links to their sites
Sorry for the long read Gals and Guys. If you actually enjoy all this ready, I have plenty more reading i could shoot your way.
-Marc
Alcoholics Anonymous: A Beguile Organization with ultraconservative views
This is a rant on how in America, the ONLY treatment option we have is Alcoholics Anonymous. 97% of inpatient and outpatient drug rehabilitation programs are 12 step related. What if AA/NA just isn't for you? What if it doesn't work for you? Here's some statistics and other articles to read up on. How this country is praising a program that's success rate is 3% ( some studies say its more like 1%) Yet 40% of people that get clean do it on their own, and stay clean. So let me get this straight, 40% of people clean did it their own way, and only 3% of people who used the AA/NA 12-step method got clean. hmmmmmm
*****Disclaimer**********
I see NO problem with people going to AA/NA or other related self help groups, if it works for you, thats AWESOME. That is essentially what thiis is about, what works for you.
The 12-step success rate is showing to be approximately 3 percent. Yes, that’s right… only 3 percent! (Brown,Treatment Doesn’t Work, 1991). Here are some more startling statistics: 45% of the people who attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings never return after their first meeting.
• 95% never return after the first year.
• 5% retention rate (Based on Alcoholics Anonymous World Services' own statistics).
• 93-97% of conventional drug rehabs and alcohol treatment centers are 12-step or AA based, so those who leave AA to look elsewhere, such as conventional alcohol and drug treatment for solutions, are essentially rejoining AA!AA hardly sounds like a “proven method,” let alone one that works for most people. So, if only about 5% of the people are getting the help that they need, what about the 95% of the people who are not being helped? That is the purpose of this article… to provide much needed awareness to individuals, rehabilitation centers, hospitals, sober livings, and even 12-step programs themselves so that people with substance abuse problems can be helped.
The bottom line is this… is the goal to get alcoholics and addicts into AA or NA or CA, or is it to actually get them help? source: http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/647/1/AA-Is-Not-The-Only-Way/Page1.html
There's something else that bothers me in AA and other 12 step groups. The disease model that is used by 12-step and AA/NA. Here's a great way to explain it, source at bottom.
One of the unique features of this disease is that the effects of the disease are usually first felt by people other than the one suffering from the disease. For most diseases, the sick person feels bad. If the sick person doesn’t feel bad, nobody else feels bad. If alcoholism is a disease, it must be a mental illness. The mentally ill often deny they are ill and the first identification of a mental illness is often when others notice that the afflicted person is behaving in unconventional, bizarre or self-destructive ways. Like other mental illnesses, there is no blood or urine test for alcoholism. There is no physical marker the healer can look for to identify the disease. All the signs are behavioral.
Unlike mental illness, however, alcohol abuse is self-inflicted and might better be called brain abuse.
One cynical view of the matter is that alcoholism as a disease is not a matter of discovery, but of definition. It is a disease because it has been declared to be so by the very ones who profess to have the cure for the disease. How fortunate for the world that those who define the disease also define the cure! Actually, they don’t have a "cure." They have a remedy. The inventors of the disease also declare that no one can be cured of this disease. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You haven’t had a drink in fifty years, you say. That is not evidence that you are no longer an alcoholic. A cure would mean an end to treatment. A remedy means a lifelong income for the SAT provider. The treatment usually begins by being repeatedly told that the first step to recovery is the declaration: I am an alcoholic. For the sinner to be saved, the sinner must first admit he is a sinner. (I am not claiming that A.A. uses the word 'sin' or 'sinner' or 'grace' or that there is any official use of theological terminology.) To refuse to do so is proof the sick one is "in denial" and without grace. The only way to prove you are not in denial is to admit you are an alcoholic. This is only phase one. The next phase is public confession: the subject must declare before others how they have degraded themselves and betrayed their humanity through substance abuse. The point, I suppose, is to get the substance abuser to believe he or she is hopelessly addicted or diabolically possessed (or both) and can be helped only by abandoning oneself to a "Higher Power."
Neither A.A. nor many other SATs are based on science, nor do they seem interested in doing any scientific studies which might test whether the treatment they give is effective. A.A. members know A.A. works, so they don’t need studies to verify the effectiveness of the program. They have very vivid testimonials from people like Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., of hopeless alcoholics whose only salvation was a religious experience. But others might like to know how many don’t stay and go through the program? How many go through it, but leave? We only hear about the successes, not the failures, because the failures aren’t counted; they aren’t around to be counted. We won’t read about any comparisons with non-A.A. programs, nor will we hear about those substance abusers who quit drinking or drugs without any treatment at all. They didn’t need a "Higher Power" or the group’s help to quit; they did it on their own. How is that possible? If alcoholism is a disease for which there is no cure, and which requires the substance abuser to give oneself over to a "Higher Power," how do some people quit abusing alcohol or drugs on their own? This should not be possible if either the A.A. philosophy or the disease theory is correct.
We know that many studies have found that many people who abuse alcohol have stopped the abuse on their own. The studies vary in quality and the results are wildly disparate, but most of them found at least 40% success rates with no treatment at all. Getting data from A.A. is not easy, but their own people say that they have a success rate of about 40% (Salerno 2005: 142). The probability is that the success rate is much lower.
In any case, if alcoholism isn’t a disease, then it is foolish to seek a "cure" for it. It is foolish to have treatment centers with patients who are "suffering from alcoholism," if it isn't a disease that needs to be treated, but a behavior that needs to be changed.
Even if alcoholism is a sin and a matter of self-control, it is especially foolish to treat all alcoholics with the A.A. 12-step program. All alcoholics don’t come from the same mold. They are not all physically addicted. They are not all psychologically addicted. They are not all addicted. They are not all victims. They are not all diseased. They are not all hopelessly without any self-control. They are not all completely irrational and incompetent. They are not all mentally ill. They don’t all need therapy or medication. There are probably many good programs besides those based on the "disease" or the "sinner" models of the alcoholic. Substance abusers who want to get back some control in their lives might check out some of these other programs and not feel it’s either A.A. or a "chemical dependency" program or nothing. Although, there is a good chance that no program, with the support of people who love you, and a sincere effort on your part, could be just as beneficial as any of the organized substance abuse programs.
One final note: it seems rather curious that Bill Wilson, founder of A.A., credited people like Carl Jung and William James’s Varieties of Religious Experience for helping him see that "ego collapse" is the common denominator in conversion experiences and that such an experience was the one the alcoholic must have in order to reform. (Wilson also wrote fondly to Jung that some in A.A. had become devotees of psychic powers and the I Ching, a favorite of Jung’s.) Jung had simply thought that some people were hopeless and therapy could do them no good, but perhaps religious devotion could help them. James catalogued experiences as part of his pragmatism: the truth of religion is in its fruits, its effects on a person’s life. The idea is attractive if you keep one eye shut and ignore the Jim Joneses, Jerry Falwells, David Koreshes, Peter Popovs, and Pat Robertsons of the world. The idea might seem true to someone whose selective memory ignores all the alcoholic priests, priestesses, and devoted churchgoers.
I know this might sound like this is some drug induced rant. But its not, and I am quite sober. Last night I wrote literally 27 pages of information regarding Alcoholics Anonymous. I was court ordered to attend Alcoholics Anonymous?Narcotics anonymous. This was a year ago. I did my 90 meetings in 90 days, got a sponsor. Some days I even went to 2 or 3 meetings. But It did NOT work for me. I used during my 90/90. I lied to to my sponsor. I even took commitments ( coffee, clean up, all that shit) hell, i even SPOKE at meetings, In the end it just wasn't for me, it didn't keep me clean.
Last Wednesday my probation officer said that I need to come back with my signed AA slips ( proof i went) or she will violate me ( violate me for going to a program that simply hasn't kept me clean???). Anyway, is there ANY recovery programs out there that do NOT use the 12 step recovery model, and if possible, the disease model. Just, through some groups my way I could attend in my area, just give my links to their sites
Sorry for the long read Gals and Guys. If you actually enjoy all this ready, I have plenty more reading i could shoot your way.
-Marc
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 84,998
PureLife, we've mostly been keeping AA/NA stuff, especially general commentary about the program to one thread these days. I'm going to move this there. My single biggest frustration w/ NA/AA is the huge percentage of treatment facilities and clinics which use it as its mainstay. There have been other ideas and information since the 1930's but the most money and energy is going into this single approach that has rather unimpressive results when it gets examined without hype or glorification of disciples not open to any other means.
I myself am not a believer in God nor religion or higher powers nor ghosts
And one of the main guiding lights of the AA/NA programs is this pseudo Philosophical bullshit they call a higher power witch is just a fig leaf for religion and or god
I had a chance once to go as an observer to a AA meeting for my friends mother
Firstly let me state some positive aspects it is a place where people of similar Situations can get together and talk about there problems vent frustrations and find support from others
that's fine
What i found disturbing- firstly this summing up your entire existence with hi my name is Bob and I'm a fuck up seems as if your mistakes are and will be the defining role for the duration of the treatment program. Having this admittance of ones faults as some kind of proper introduction to a group seems cruel and creepy
I also found it unsettling that most people there kept this idea of there mistakes with drugs
as the forefront of there being almost like nothing else defined them more uniquely in character then there previous mistakes with taking drugs CREEPY
but hey if it works for some so be it right?
my point is this shit should not be forced by law on people it's wrong
I think there should be a more scientific alternative for those whom are turned off by AA/NA
that's my 2 cents
And one of the main guiding lights of the AA/NA programs is this pseudo Philosophical bullshit they call a higher power witch is just a fig leaf for religion and or god
I had a chance once to go as an observer to a AA meeting for my friends mother
Firstly let me state some positive aspects it is a place where people of similar Situations can get together and talk about there problems vent frustrations and find support from others
that's fine
What i found disturbing- firstly this summing up your entire existence with hi my name is Bob and I'm a fuck up seems as if your mistakes are and will be the defining role for the duration of the treatment program. Having this admittance of ones faults as some kind of proper introduction to a group seems cruel and creepy
I also found it unsettling that most people there kept this idea of there mistakes with drugs
as the forefront of there being almost like nothing else defined them more uniquely in character then there previous mistakes with taking drugs CREEPY
but hey if it works for some so be it right?
my point is this shit should not be forced by law on people it's wrong
I think there should be a more scientific alternative for those whom are turned off by AA/NA
that's my 2 cents
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 84,998
Rational Recovery is one group I can think of off the top of my head, I know there are others out there as well.
PracticalPrankster
Greenlighter
- Joined
- May 26, 2009
- Messages
- 13
In my area in Western New York, as long as you have a desire to stop using you are welcome.
If they can tell you are high they might ask why you decided to come high and help you from that point.
I have seen many people obviously high in meetings and nobody bothered them.. If they shared something ridiculous they might get put in place sometimes so people don't get the wrong idea.
i.e. "Smoking pot helps me not use heroin"
as this doesnt apply very well to the NA model
PracticalPrankster
Greenlighter
- Joined
- May 26, 2009
- Messages
- 13
Is SOS a 12 step program?
lasthurrah19
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 565
I went to AA for about 6 months and NA for about 8 months. I tried to let go of the religious garbage they shove down your throat. I tried for more than a year!
Ultimately, it's a bunch of bait and switch shit - first you don't have to believe anything, then you just have to believe in a "power greater than yourself", then all of a sudden in step three its "God", the big G, and even though it's "as you understand him", they still went from nothing to HP to GOD in three easy steps. I'm sorry but I'm not giving my WILL and my LIFE over to a micromanaging NA God who speaks to you and tells you what to do (people will profess to this over and over in meetings). Furthermore, I am not powerless over my addiction. I have a choice, once I am not doing it anymore. If they only taught the BIOLOGY of addiction, I think that could help many people... base brain vs. rational brain, etc. But no, it's thought stopping slogans and prophecies and doomsday if you ever leave. It's almost a cult to a T, except the cult gurus are dead - and some of the groups end up having their own gurus (anyone from DC could attest to the Q Group - which is or was nothing short of a cult, with sexual exploitation normal and thugs to keep members there), and some of them don't.
Anyway, my point it... be careful. There is nothing wrong with a support group, but from what I've seen... stay away from big meetings... stay away from meetings where there are obvious leaders (as in, one or two people), who always chair and obviously control the group. Go to the business meeting and see who the members really are, outside of the traditional meeting. I learned a lot about the people that way... specifically I knew a man who was all about his HP and serenity, who threw a chair at someone because they had suggested having a timer going as people spoke. I was against it too, but I didn't throw a chair at anyone.
AA, furthermore, is almost an exact copy of the Oxford Group, a religious cult from the early 1900's - which was renamed Moral Re-Armament and still is around, not sure the name anymore. Bill W. was part of this cult and basically kept recruiting alcoholics, to the point they all but kicked him out, and he copied the cult, added in extra steps to bind people a little more, and voila. And then they invent Al-Anon to get the rest of the alcoholic's family in the cult. It's really quite sad.
I still go to meetings once a week or so, but it's to say hi to friends and see if they are still sober, get support, etc. - the few people in NA that I used to use with and know their family, well... one mom recently asked me why her kid refused to talk to her unless she went to Al-Anon meetings. Why he was all of a sudden a religious nut who professed to talk to God. All I could say was "Sorry, he's following the program. I didn't know."
I plan to attend a SMART meeting - even if there isn't one in your area, there's plenty of useful info on their website, and online meetings. AA/NA would be great, but it's really a covert religious conversion program. It takes people who are vulnerable and already have a lot of guilt, throws more guilt on them... I'm looking for a quote from the Big Book which out and out SAYS the main purpose is for the alcoholic to know the "one true God"...
This is not from the Big Book, but from a companion book:
We may start out as agnostics. We may then come to view the group or recovery process as our higher power, looking to other people for strength. Gradually, we accept a vague notion of god, which grows to a more specific monotheistic god. We may even begin to pray to and dialogue with this god. Eventually we come to know the one true God.
Serenity, A Companion for Twelve Step Recovery, Complete with New Testament Psalms & Proverbs, Dr. Robert Hemfelt and Dr. Richard Fowler, page 78.
And this IS from the Big Book:
"At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us."
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action, page 77
The ONE TRUE GOD. Very damning evidence...
Ultimately, it's a bunch of bait and switch shit - first you don't have to believe anything, then you just have to believe in a "power greater than yourself", then all of a sudden in step three its "God", the big G, and even though it's "as you understand him", they still went from nothing to HP to GOD in three easy steps. I'm sorry but I'm not giving my WILL and my LIFE over to a micromanaging NA God who speaks to you and tells you what to do (people will profess to this over and over in meetings). Furthermore, I am not powerless over my addiction. I have a choice, once I am not doing it anymore. If they only taught the BIOLOGY of addiction, I think that could help many people... base brain vs. rational brain, etc. But no, it's thought stopping slogans and prophecies and doomsday if you ever leave. It's almost a cult to a T, except the cult gurus are dead - and some of the groups end up having their own gurus (anyone from DC could attest to the Q Group - which is or was nothing short of a cult, with sexual exploitation normal and thugs to keep members there), and some of them don't.
Anyway, my point it... be careful. There is nothing wrong with a support group, but from what I've seen... stay away from big meetings... stay away from meetings where there are obvious leaders (as in, one or two people), who always chair and obviously control the group. Go to the business meeting and see who the members really are, outside of the traditional meeting. I learned a lot about the people that way... specifically I knew a man who was all about his HP and serenity, who threw a chair at someone because they had suggested having a timer going as people spoke. I was against it too, but I didn't throw a chair at anyone.
AA, furthermore, is almost an exact copy of the Oxford Group, a religious cult from the early 1900's - which was renamed Moral Re-Armament and still is around, not sure the name anymore. Bill W. was part of this cult and basically kept recruiting alcoholics, to the point they all but kicked him out, and he copied the cult, added in extra steps to bind people a little more, and voila. And then they invent Al-Anon to get the rest of the alcoholic's family in the cult. It's really quite sad.
I still go to meetings once a week or so, but it's to say hi to friends and see if they are still sober, get support, etc. - the few people in NA that I used to use with and know their family, well... one mom recently asked me why her kid refused to talk to her unless she went to Al-Anon meetings. Why he was all of a sudden a religious nut who professed to talk to God. All I could say was "Sorry, he's following the program. I didn't know."
I plan to attend a SMART meeting - even if there isn't one in your area, there's plenty of useful info on their website, and online meetings. AA/NA would be great, but it's really a covert religious conversion program. It takes people who are vulnerable and already have a lot of guilt, throws more guilt on them... I'm looking for a quote from the Big Book which out and out SAYS the main purpose is for the alcoholic to know the "one true God"...
This is not from the Big Book, but from a companion book:
We may start out as agnostics. We may then come to view the group or recovery process as our higher power, looking to other people for strength. Gradually, we accept a vague notion of god, which grows to a more specific monotheistic god. We may even begin to pray to and dialogue with this god. Eventually we come to know the one true God.
Serenity, A Companion for Twelve Step Recovery, Complete with New Testament Psalms & Proverbs, Dr. Robert Hemfelt and Dr. Richard Fowler, page 78.
And this IS from the Big Book:
"At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us."
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action, page 77
The ONE TRUE GOD. Very damning evidence...
Last edited:
lasthurrah19
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
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- 565
The Steps say, in Step Three, that we only need to believe in "God as we understand Him," that we have great freedom in defining our "God", so that the program can accommodate all religions and all faiths. But the subsequent steps become increasingly specific about just Who and What God is, until by Step Twelve, A.A. has precisely defined their version of God.
Likewise, if you point out that it is unChristian and heretical to believe in a Golden Calf as your Higher Power, the sponsors will tell you that you can't really believe in a Golden Calf — that the "anything as God" line is just something that they tell the newcomers who might object to a dogmatic cult religion. Later, the newcomers learn that there is really only one acceptable Higher Power, and It is the entity that Bill Wilson called "God".
Step Two says that you only have to believe that a "Power greater than yourself" — which can be anything, they proudly declare, including a doorknob, a potato, a mountain, a motorcycle, or the A.A. group itself — Who will "restore you to sanity."
But the following steps instruct you to do things that require a very specific kind of God:
# You must believe that God can (and will) control your alcoholism and manage your life (Step One). So it has to be some kind of meddling, micro-managing God who actually wants to meddle and micro-manage.
# You must believe that God can (and will) restore you to sanity (Step Two). Again, God must be a meddler who actually wants to poke around inside your head. You must turn your will and your life over to the care of God (Step Three). So It must be a God Who can and will take care of your life and your will for you. And it must also be a God who wants to do that.
(http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-bait-switch.html)
And there is more to it than that. WAY more. If it's not okay to link to outside stuff, please feel free to delete that URL, it's just the source. The guy who wrote that site sums it up way better than I could ever do, with his own research and a lot of sources. He basically compiled all of this relevant AA/NA info into one (huge) website. I was happy to find it, as I could feel how wrong it was in my bones but did not have all the info to prove what I felt.
Likewise, if you point out that it is unChristian and heretical to believe in a Golden Calf as your Higher Power, the sponsors will tell you that you can't really believe in a Golden Calf — that the "anything as God" line is just something that they tell the newcomers who might object to a dogmatic cult religion. Later, the newcomers learn that there is really only one acceptable Higher Power, and It is the entity that Bill Wilson called "God".
Step Two says that you only have to believe that a "Power greater than yourself" — which can be anything, they proudly declare, including a doorknob, a potato, a mountain, a motorcycle, or the A.A. group itself — Who will "restore you to sanity."
But the following steps instruct you to do things that require a very specific kind of God:
# You must believe that God can (and will) control your alcoholism and manage your life (Step One). So it has to be some kind of meddling, micro-managing God who actually wants to meddle and micro-manage.
# You must believe that God can (and will) restore you to sanity (Step Two). Again, God must be a meddler who actually wants to poke around inside your head. You must turn your will and your life over to the care of God (Step Three). So It must be a God Who can and will take care of your life and your will for you. And it must also be a God who wants to do that.
(http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-bait-switch.html)
And there is more to it than that. WAY more. If it's not okay to link to outside stuff, please feel free to delete that URL, it's just the source. The guy who wrote that site sums it up way better than I could ever do, with his own research and a lot of sources. He basically compiled all of this relevant AA/NA info into one (huge) website. I was happy to find it, as I could feel how wrong it was in my bones but did not have all the info to prove what I felt.
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lasthurrah19
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 565
And maybe all of this wouldn't be such a bad thing... I'd be okay, maybe, with some kind of benevolent cult that really helped people with drugs/alcohol. But the proof is not in the pudding, in this case. AA has no greater rate of recovery than spontaneous remission, IE people would have quit on their own anyway. (see http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html and http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD005032/frame.html and others). The only research I've ever read that said anything contrary to that came from Hazeldon, an organization that funnels people into AA/NA.
That's the worst part of it. People are forced into a cult for having problems with substances, or even if they don't have a problem and just got caught one of the few times they are using. That is deceptive recruiting, and doesn't fit it with the tradition about "attraction, not promotion". Sounds more like force to me.
Anyway, I could go on and on. There's lots of info out there. If it's working for you, great. Just take care not to turn into a religious maniac; also be proud of what YOU have done, the program didn't do it for you. YOU did it for you. AA/NA wants you to give up "reason" for "faith". That is dangerous and very scary. Any time they say give your will to "God" they are saying give your will to "Us, the twelve step group". Do what God says - but first run it by your sponsor, so they can tweak it for you. It's really sick. Just because I have a drug problem, that doesn't mean I deserve to be funneled into a cult that only serves itself. Not to mention, predators know there are people hurting there. There seems to be a much greater percentage of predators at meetings than in the general population (obviously that is just my experience)... it's sick seeing these old timer men with young girls, every month or so a different one. I've observed one of these men buying beer for themselves after a meeting as well - so, everyone who says they are sober may not be. If someone has the ambition to hurt people, and get money/sex/recognition, AA/NA has it all set up for them - just say you have ten+ years sober, just moved from someplace, and start chairing and get known for a few months... then start your own meeting... and prey on people who come in and have never been to a meeting before (which the chairperson conveniently asks everyone at the start of the meeting). They won't know any better.
Sorry for the multiple posts and rants... I just feel strongly on this subject, and I've lost friends who have "found God" in the program and will no longer speak to me, even though as far as they know I am sober. But if I went to NA they would be my best friends. Such a sham.
That's the worst part of it. People are forced into a cult for having problems with substances, or even if they don't have a problem and just got caught one of the few times they are using. That is deceptive recruiting, and doesn't fit it with the tradition about "attraction, not promotion". Sounds more like force to me.
Anyway, I could go on and on. There's lots of info out there. If it's working for you, great. Just take care not to turn into a religious maniac; also be proud of what YOU have done, the program didn't do it for you. YOU did it for you. AA/NA wants you to give up "reason" for "faith". That is dangerous and very scary. Any time they say give your will to "God" they are saying give your will to "Us, the twelve step group". Do what God says - but first run it by your sponsor, so they can tweak it for you. It's really sick. Just because I have a drug problem, that doesn't mean I deserve to be funneled into a cult that only serves itself. Not to mention, predators know there are people hurting there. There seems to be a much greater percentage of predators at meetings than in the general population (obviously that is just my experience)... it's sick seeing these old timer men with young girls, every month or so a different one. I've observed one of these men buying beer for themselves after a meeting as well - so, everyone who says they are sober may not be. If someone has the ambition to hurt people, and get money/sex/recognition, AA/NA has it all set up for them - just say you have ten+ years sober, just moved from someplace, and start chairing and get known for a few months... then start your own meeting... and prey on people who come in and have never been to a meeting before (which the chairperson conveniently asks everyone at the start of the meeting). They won't know any better.
Sorry for the multiple posts and rants... I just feel strongly on this subject, and I've lost friends who have "found God" in the program and will no longer speak to me, even though as far as they know I am sober. But if I went to NA they would be my best friends. Such a sham.
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eon_blue
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 2,707
Great posts, lasthurrah19. I agree with your opinions entirely on the subject of AA/NA, I myself was involved with "the program" 100% for 4 or 5 months. In the last month or so that I was there, something just started to not feel right. It was as if I was finally waking up from the recovery-induced coma I was thrown into while in rehab, and I started to realize, hey, I'm not questioning anything here, what's really going on?
Then of course, I fell into a pit of self-loathing thinking that I was wrong for questioning "the program" and that I should just lie down and take what's being given to me 8) Makes me almost sick to my stomach to think that I had practically given up what little pride and dignity I had left for them to manipulate me with.
I too have lost friends to the program, one day they say they'll do anything for you and the next, after you've *gasp* taken your life into your own hands (leaving the program), they want nothing to do with you.
Ultimately, I simply feel as though I should not be condemned to live the rest of my life focused on some stupid decisions I made in my youth. I can't imagine being 50 years old and still going to meetings because things got a little out of control when I was 19-22 years old. Maybe I'm "rationalizing and minimizing my disease", but so what? Taking that risk and actually enjoying life is far more attractive to me than cowering behind the program in fear of the next liquor store or pot smoking hippy that might be lurking around the corner.
Thanks for the link too, I think it sums things up nicely
Then of course, I fell into a pit of self-loathing thinking that I was wrong for questioning "the program" and that I should just lie down and take what's being given to me 8) Makes me almost sick to my stomach to think that I had practically given up what little pride and dignity I had left for them to manipulate me with.
I too have lost friends to the program, one day they say they'll do anything for you and the next, after you've *gasp* taken your life into your own hands (leaving the program), they want nothing to do with you.
Ultimately, I simply feel as though I should not be condemned to live the rest of my life focused on some stupid decisions I made in my youth. I can't imagine being 50 years old and still going to meetings because things got a little out of control when I was 19-22 years old. Maybe I'm "rationalizing and minimizing my disease", but so what? Taking that risk and actually enjoying life is far more attractive to me than cowering behind the program in fear of the next liquor store or pot smoking hippy that might be lurking around the corner.
Thanks for the link too, I think it sums things up nicely
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lasthurrah19
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 565
Congrats for getting out before getting completely brainwashed, lots of people never go back after a few, but for those who do (like you and I), are at least at marginal risk to be very hurt by the "program".
Thanks for the positive input on my post. Usually if I present this to someone they won't even read it, their denial and brainwashing is so in effect. Unless someone is saying negative AA things, I never bring it up the few times I do still go... and never in a group of people. I don't want to get hurt lol
I don't object to the person getting therapy individually, with a therapy group or with some other meetings that are not geared towards religion, they are geared towards providing tools and being a support group, and religion or spirituality don't have anything to do with the program. Of course you can be whatever faith and attend. It's just a non-issue.
I definitely hope I am out of my stupid mistakes and drug use of any kind without too many years going by. It's certainly at a place which is WAY less dangerous as when I was deep in my addiction, by a long shot. So it's getting better, I'm getting better and better and slipping up less. Rates for people getting sober are way higher than most people think... I'm not sure the percentage, but somewhere along the lines of 50/50 (over your lifetime). I was also taught (in school and treatment programs and NA) that's it's less than 10%. Presumably just to scare people into coming back.
And yeah, the orange papers spell it out nice and clear and it's very logical and just makes total sense. Someone who really reads it and has half a brain (not brainwashed yet) should realize it pretty clearly.
Thanks for the positive input on my post.
Usually if I present this to someone they won't even read it, their denial and brainwashing is so in effect. Unless someone is saying negative AA things, I never bring it up the few times I do still go... and never in a group of people. I don't want to get hurt lolI don't object to the person getting therapy individually, with a therapy group or with some other meetings that are not geared towards religion, they are geared towards providing tools and being a support group, and religion or spirituality don't have anything to do with the program. Of course you can be whatever faith and attend. It's just a non-issue.
I definitely hope I am out of my stupid mistakes and drug use of any kind without too many years going by. It's certainly at a place which is WAY less dangerous as when I was deep in my addiction, by a long shot. So it's getting better, I'm getting better and better and slipping up less. Rates for people getting sober are way higher than most people think... I'm not sure the percentage, but somewhere along the lines of 50/50 (over your lifetime). I was also taught (in school and treatment programs and NA) that's it's less than 10%. Presumably just to scare people into coming back.
And yeah, the orange papers spell it out nice and clear and it's very logical and just makes total sense. Someone who really reads it and has half a brain (not brainwashed yet) should realize it pretty clearly.
I really dislike AA. I completely agree that the AA book is full of bait and switch. That's exactly how I felt the first time I read it.
For me the worst part of AA is how it enforces the idea that you will relapse if you don't work a program in people's minds. I firmly believe that most people relapse soon after leaving AA because they believe that shit and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
For me the worst part of AA is how it enforces the idea that you will relapse if you don't work a program in people's minds. I firmly believe that most people relapse soon after leaving AA because they believe that shit and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.