A question of loyalty amongst family and loved ones.

[JessFR]

So I'm curious where other people stand on this.

One of the recurring problems between me and my ex was a question of values when it comes to loyalty and taking sides in arguments.

Say you have a partner, a boyfriend or girlfriend or brother or sister or whatever. And a dispute comes up between them, and a mutual friend.

One of the problems I had with my ex is that we had different values about how to respond in this kind of situation. He felt that he should be honest, side with the friend against spouse or family member if he honestly thought they were in the wrong. Or at the very least take no side at all.

I on the other hand, I guess I was brought up with a different system of values. If there's a dispute between a family member or spouse against a common friend, I would always publically side with and defend the spouse or family member. Even if I thought they were wrong. Sure I'd privately tell them I thought they were wrong and try and get them to see that. But publically I'd always side with them in the dispute.

Likewise, if I had a dispute with a friend, and I were also a friend of their spouse or sibling or something, I would expect them to defend them regardless of their real opinions and wouldn't hold it against them. Of course they're going to defend their partner or brother. To me it would seem unfair to expect them to do otherwise even if they actually agreed with me.

A similar and related value is not complaining about a spouse or family member to someone else who's not a spouse or family member. You bring your complaint up with the person directly, not go behind their back to someone outside your family.

I don't have very many people I consider family. But those I do I hold a strong loyalty to. And I suppose I tend to assume this is how most people see it. But perhaps I'm in the minority.

I'm curious what other people think. Should you be honest towards your actual beliefs even if it means siding against a spouse, partner, family member etc? Or is publically showing support and loyalty the greater obligation?

 

[tokezu]

Defending is a pretty strong word. If I would feel an actual need for defending my spouse or my family member then I would do so, i.e. if I feel they have been attacked without proper justification. But I don't think every disagreement my spouse or my family member has with another person automatically means I have to come to their defense. If somebody who is close to me never disagrees with me about anything as long as we are in public, I would think that's kind of weird. If somebody who is close to me would expect me to never disagree with them about anything as long as we are in public, that would be a huge red flag to me.

 

[JessFR]

Ehh. I don't mean not disagreeing about anything in public. I'm more talking about a more heated (but not violent) interpersonal argument. Not something largely inconsequential.

I'm having trouble thinking of a good example. But something along the severity of a tense political argument perhaps.

Not getting involved and staying out of it if you really thought your partner or whatever is in the wrong is probably fine. But I certainly wouldn't argue against a spouse in favor of a mutual friend in a dispute even if I agreed with the friend. Nor would I expect the reverse if I were the friend. In private I'd tell them what I really thought, but not in public.

If I had to explain why, I'd say it's because I place an overall greater value on loyalty than honesty.

EDIT: Actually having thought about it more, I'd probably be OK with the partner giving their real views to both sides of the dispute, but privately. Not during the dispute. Also while I'm mentioning this applying to both family and romantic partners, if the dispute involved all 3, your romantic partner is owed the greater loyalty.

This would apply to children too since they're obviously also family. Though id say immediate family come ahead of more distance relatives, who (if you consider them your family, family isn't always blood related, a blood family member you've never really known is owed no loyalty at all) in turn are ahead of friends.

 

[tokezu]

Yes, I understand you weren't actually talking about not disagreeing about anything in public. But I think you were talking about not disagreeing in public when it's about an issue that is important to them, did I get that right? For me this isn't really the point, the point is that every disagreement has to be voiced respectfully (and it needn't be in private to be considered respectful).

To put my position a bit differently, I would defend my spouse or family member against a verbal attack that is aimed against them as a person. But if someone attacks soley the argument that my spouse or family member is putting forward - and I find that particular argument to be indefensible - I don't think I have a duty to defend that argument or even a duty to at least not get involved out of loyalty.

 

[Shady's Fox]

This is very weird written. In public of course there it's that shame that most people have which depends on the subject that it's brought up. Loyalty doesn't consist only in defending, it's in a more larger glass that involves respect --- commitments --- truth, caring, just because you have this for them doesn't meaning you don't have your right to share your view even if it's public --- private and be right for their satisfaction. If you want to defend someone in a argument ( family/spouse/friend) make the words you use calculated and also this depends on the person which they have the fight with, whenever you defend someone you can add some negatives too if it's the case and you are right

 

[thujone]

Ooo touchy subject. I try not to get involved because unless I'm taking sides against a partner it can still be assumed that I would normally back them up. If I do get involved then the friend might end up feeling alienated, especially if he/she was a friend from before the relationship. Afterwards, in private, the partner usually dumps on the friend ("how could he/she think that?!", etc) so that's when I try and explain the friend's point of view just so the partner in future is mindful to avoid that topic around the friend.

 

[Help?!?!]

What's right is right in most cases. Proper mediation is the key between people not just siding with someone because of their connection with you. It's not a case of "Oh I'm your XXX and you can't defend me?" more of trying to get both parties to see the things that were done wrong so everyone can come to a justified and relevant solution on adult terms.

 

[swilow]

I'm curious what other people think. Should you be honest towards your actual beliefs even if it means siding against a spouse, partner, family member etc? Or is publically showing support and loyalty the greater obligation?

I would rather, and I opt for, honesty as much as possible. I love my partner deeply and respect her and learn from her, but I don't agree with everything she says. Just don't tell her that

Arguably, it is wiser to be loyal to your own views. Its easier at least- I think my own opinions out as thoroughly as possible, I've no way of knowing if anyone else does that, I'm hesitatant to back anyones opinion simply because I have a close connection with them.

If it came to physicality, everything is different. Anyone who would physically attack anyone close to me is my sworn enemy for life and beyond But more seriously, that sort of instance is where I would step in instantly and have had to for my older brother. Not these days, but he used to be aggressive and emotional and would just end up in ridiculous situations where he would be toe-to-toe with some guy and completely in the wrong...but to prevent him getting stomped en mass? I would have to jump in. Though when alone, the fight would continue between him and I.

 

[Asclepius]

Unless it's something extreme like, if the welfare of a child etc was in jeopardy, or something completely unethical - I would always side with those close to me and expect the same behaviour.

Your ex sounds like an obnoxious moron. Well rid!

 

[cduggles]

I agree with OP, in the sense that a partner shouldn't jump in on the other side of a heated discussion with "outsiders" about an issue.

I definitely grew up learning that is proper, and it's difficult for me to understand OP's ex.

You can discuss things in private, and your partner should know how to tactfully bring it up later if it's still so important that they have to tell you their opinion.

Just a small, fairly relevant example: a couple of days ago, I was informed privately that I was mispronouncing a term. I was a little surprised, yet happy to be corrected. And yes, I was relieved it was in private.