A good death and reflections on dying

[swilow]

I've been re-reading passages from The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and the sometimes playful, exuberant and whimsical language creates a sort of positive dissonance, given the subject matter. Which has lead me to a few thoughts. Humans often seem to talk about what they want out of life, what they want to achieve, things they desire, things they wish to learn... Its quite rare to discuss what one wants of their death. Its a heavy topic and I think our societies cultural aversion to death (like it is a bad or abhorrent thing) actually creates a deeper fear of it. I think people find it difficult to even consider choosing a death, because dying will most likely be against one's will; choice doesn't come into it. But, I think there is value in examining and considering your own end.

I've found it useful to try and imagine what a good death would be, in the same way that I consider and work towards a good life. I would like my death to come by my own hand, when I am an old guy, in beautiful autumn sunlight and remembering my life. I would like to face it, head on, and really feel the sensation. I don't want to feel compelled to, through physical or mental suffering, but if I get to a point where life is too painful, I would face the end as clearly and openly as possible.

But, I concede that this will most likely not happen. However, the idea of being in control of this final step gives me heart when contemplating my demise. I also feel that a deeper awareness of the inevitability of death can really provide one with heightened impetus to have a good, fulfilling life. Despite the darkness of death, an awareness and appreciation can actually have a positive impact on your life.

I've often felt like injected 5-MeO-DMT is fucking close to the feels of death. I can't know this, but something about the complete lack of sensation, context, frames of reference feels a bit like what I imagine dying to be. I've had similar, but infinitely more pleasant, experiences on ketamine too.

What would you guys consider to be a "good death"? I'm not sure if this topic will be very interesting, but maybe worth a shot. I hope it doesn't make anyone uncomfortable; but, if it does, I think that that in itself is worth examining.

Feel free to mention any theories you have regarding death/afterlife; any thoughts on this topic, as a way of possibly demystifying it, would be of interest to me and hopefully others.

Peace

 

[-=SS=-]

My only wish is to be fully present and aware. You only get one shot at it, and it has taken years to arrive.. so, I don't want to miss anything! Don't really care about pain or not, that doesn't bother me at all. My ideal setting would be laying down or reclining in a chair, in a quiet room, so I can hear sounds distinctly and not be distracted from the experience. I don't want to die in a public place and be a spectacle for gawking idiots with their mobile phones.. the idea of possibly being aware of that scene post-death would piss me off, and I don't want to be pissed off after death haha.

This book on near-death experiences may be of interest

http://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/Raymond-Moody-Life-After-Life.pdf

 

[herbavore]

I just went again to see the film about Timothy Leary's death and about his life, especially his friendship with Ram Dass, called Dying to Know. The film starts with Leary, dying of cancer at home in New Mexico saying exactly what you are saying, Willow--that we neither plan for or talk about what we want for our deaths. He is the same crazy but endearing Leary of years past, over-the-top enthusiastic and celebratory, getting a huge kick out of all those "practice ego-deaths" he took on LSD. Ram Dass says, at one point, "If you have identified with your soul during your life, death will simply be a moment. Like all the other moments."

Having been with people during their deaths, I have developed a desire for a very conscious death, despite the pain that may be involved. Each time I have witnessed an unimaginable grace blossom in the person as they move consciously towards letting go of this life. It is a very powerful thing to see, particularly if the person has previously been very angry or had bitterness about their life. Everyone close to that person is affected with a palpable sense of awe--as if we were seeing life in a much deeper context--the way psychedelics sometimes reveal life. I have been with people who did not want to die and people who were ready and yet this grace came no matter which state the dying person was in.

Right now I can only imagine the deep sadness I will feel in leaving the world. I love this world. I love the light and I love the plants and the animals and the frustratingly insane species that I am a part of. I love water and having a body and sensations and feelings. I love words and music and photographs and paintings. I love laughing. I love being brought to tears. Let's not forget ice cream! How do you say goodbye to such a wonderful place, such a wonderful existence? Despite the tragedy of the messes we continue to make, I love this world, and every year that marches me closer to my death only makes me love it more. So when Ram Dass says in his slow, sweet, post-stroke voice, Death is only one more moment, I think, "But you left out the goodbye part!"

There are things I look forward to, though. I look forward to seeing what detachment from all my earthly loves feels like. It is unimaginable to me now but must actually be astounding. I look forward to following my courageous son into the great unknown. It is still so hard for me to grasp that the little being that grew inside of me, that I created, who should have gone on long after me, instead flew off into death while I still exist here. And what about that death? Despite the fact that I do not believe my son wanted to die, despite the fact that he was not even really one solid step into adulthood, despite the despair he was feeling in life, I saw the peace in his body and know that whatever else that transition may have held, it was peaceful. When I think of him gone from life, I suffer; but when I think of his actual death, I do not, because I know he relaxed into it and that is a great comfort.

I have had great fun being a body but I wonder how amazing it will be to simply be consciousness--whether in the perceived eternity in that brief instant where you step outside of time as part of the physical dying process or whether it is a true eternity becomes moot.

So my vision for my own is to go out first feeling the full weight of all my gratitude for getting to love this much for this long, but then to feel that weight lift off me. Putting it that way, it sounds delightful. I have thought about the use of psychedelics and I think I would want that to be a part of the early process but not at the end.

 

[Foreigner]

I've had multiple near death experiences in my life, and my most recent one was very close to the brink. As I approached death and my body starting shutting down, everything dissolved. First my concept of the world, society, my friends and family, everything I believed in and thought was true... poof. Then my own self-concept disappeared. Then I disappeared. Then there was just pure awareness.

I'm skeptical that there's any practice you can 'try' to do while you're dying for real. It's a total letting go and loss of any control. I've read the Tibetan Book of the Dead many times and despite taking it in, along with other scriptures about this topic, I can't help but feel it's absurd to expect people to have a practice of some kind, even at the moment of dying. It seems elaborately constructed to give people a sense of continuity and that they have control over death in some way. It's not much different than asking people to meditate or have a practice while they're coming through the birth canal. You're just as empty going out as you are coming in. The one thing Buddhism started me on the path to was an emptiness practice, and a compassion practice. My intuition is that if you can live from a place of emptiness while still loving others, then that awakeness will serve you in death somehow.

Tibetan Buddhists believe though that after a lifetime of training, you can train the subtle mind to take an automatic direction within that emptiness, as you go. I seriously doubt it.

What I wish for is that my death takes place in a quiet location, and that my body isn't moved or disturbed at all for a time after. I've seen enough people die in person to know that it can take some time for the subtle essences to depart. I'd also prefer that my body be burned, not buried.

 

[Xorkoth]

Really interesting topic, I hadn't seen this before. One thing I want is for my brain to remain intact when I die... the brain retains electrical activity for quite some hours after death and I figure there has to be a reason for that. It seems to me that a traumatic death that destroys the brain might result in an important process or experience to be omitted from my life experience. And given that the speed of thought is immense (think of all that can happen in a dream in a short amount of time), I've even had the thought that "the afterlife" is simply your experience in these final hours of life, post-death.

Aside from that, ideally I'd like to die peacefully when I am ready to, when I'm old, with people I love with me or at least a person I love, simply letting old age take me at last. I don't want to be in pain, such as dying from some disease. I don't want to do it myself either... though maybe I would if I was going to die shortly and I was in agony, but I think that would be much more traumatic for my loved ones so I think I'd just deal with it.

I have had several experiences of dying, obviously not really but they were experiences during which I felt that I was dying and thought I was. One of them was in a dream while I was on my ibogaine flood dose and the others were from psychedelics while awake. I've never actually almost died. What I envision the death experience to be like is similar to Foreigner's idea: the personal ego details attached to my physical human form will dissolve and I will be pure awareness unattached to a subjectively experiencing form.

 

[-=SS=-]

Given that life is wholly unpredictable, shouldn't we be placing more stock in actually preparing for a good death as opposed to hoping that death will take us in our most desired circumstances? I like the motivation that accepting nature/god could fuck our shit up at any moment provides.. that we may not have as long to prepare as we hoped. Besides, hoping for a good death scenario sounds a bit antiquated to me.. the rest of society is rapidly shifting and evolving, perhaps it's time to re-examine our position in regards to death?

Reaching old age and dying in a nice four post bed, or surrounded by the worlds finest jewels and plundered gold, what is the point of that? I would argue having family there too is sort of pointless in a way as well.. as ultimately you will go inwards and face death on your own. Not that I wouldn't want family there of course. Just perhaps better preparation is in order? We place such importance on getting our life in order, finances, marriage, family and all sorts of things.. yet how many of us even give death deep consideration? Would you want to be caught short for what is perhaps the most important moment of your life?

I find it fascinating how we gloss over death so hastily. If the dead could talk I wonder what advice they would give the living in regards to death.

 

[Xorkoth]

Oh, I agree about preparing for death and not just the ideal circumstances. I feel like I am prepared for death though, should it happen unexpectedly. I live the life I want to live and I'm not afraid of it, though I would be afraid of any pain that might be involved, but that's a biological reaction and unlikely to change. I don't believe in a judgment/heaven/hell or that what we do in life impacts where we go, so I'm not sure what preparation is needed. Early in my life the idea of dying terrified me but in the intervening years a variety of spiritual experiences and contemplations have erased my fear of actually dying/stopping this life.

Not sure where you got the four-poster bed, gold and plunder bit from my post though. I don't care about much of the circumstances and I certainly don't care about wealth but I think I would like to have loved one(s) there because it seems like it would be nicer that way and it would be my last chance to see them.

When I say I want to die from old age, I'm simply saying that I want to live my full life if possible and not have it cut short. Of course that might not happen and I'm okay with that.

 

[swilow]

Death is always close. That must be remembered. But rather then being oppressive, this notion should make living more profound.

I try to look forward to my death though this is difficult.

Given that life is wholly unpredictable, shouldn't we be placing more stock in actually preparing for a good death as opposed to hoping that death will take us in our most desired circumstances?

That is very true. I guess the only thing is, is that life may make our preparations futile. You can never know. The only thing I don't want from death is crippling fear. I just want to be able to see it approach. Even desire it. So, I try and understand my oncoming death and just accept it. I really don't want to fight it.

 

[socko]

It's probably time to die when life is no longer worth living. When you get to the point of "is this all there is?" and are disillusioned adn disgusted by the human race and the few exceptions to this are too rare, it's time to go. You've done everything you wanted to do within reason and don't have the health to do any thing more and you can say your life has been fairly complete. When I get to the point that i am a burden on others, I will either walk or have somebody carry me to a remote mountain top in the winter. I'll load up on heroin to numb myself to the cold, take off my jacket, and lie down in the snow. I'll do breathing exercises I learned in my Tibetan Bhuddism practice and watch the stars until I freeze to death late in the night. I will stay away from the smoky red lights and only hope that I don't come back.

 

[-=SS=-]

It's probably time to die when life is no longer worth living. When you get to the point of "is this all there is?" and are disillusioned adn disgusted by the human race and the few exceptions to this are too rare, it's time to go. You've done everything you wanted to do within reason and don't have the health to do any thing more and you can say your life has been fairly complete.

What happens when you've reached that point and you're not even 30? Hell I think I reached that point before I turned 20!

 

[ThePharmacist4925]

Even if life feels as though it is not worth living now, you may later reach a point when life feels worth living again. I recently almost died and when the lights seemed like they were going out, I realized that I had a lot of people I wanted to speak with before I passed. I had been living in a reckless way and had been hoping for a painless death prior to that, funny how once you seem to be getting what you want, you realize that thing isn't actually what you wanted. I need to make it right with the people I love or have loved before I die, I know that now. Sometimes I still want to die, or even kill myself, but I won't be satisfied until I've received closure on some things. My friend killed himself two months ago, and I look at the sorrow from his family and other friends and I realize he never got honest with them completely about his day to day suffering. I knew he suffered and I hope he is at peace now, I believe he is at peace now personally. But I don't want to go if the last thing I've I've told any of my loved ones isn't I love you. I suffer from depression day to day, but I can't end things before I see my younger siblings through college for lack of a better time frame. So I have to live fore at least 5 more years and living is hard, but I know I have to try at least until I can have some clear closure. That is my experience and hope people can understand and take something from it.

 

[socko]

What happens when you've reached that point and you're not even 30? Hell I think I reached that point before I turned 20!

That happens to a lot of people who tend to think deeply and who are philosophical. Life is a long hard slog. The older you are, the worse it gets.

 

[Boku_]

I've found it useful to try and imagine what a good death would be, in the same way that I consider and work towards a good life.


Peace

Me personally would find a good death to be dying of a massive heart attack moments after shooting my load into a hot asian sex worker. I know it would cause a lot of problems for the brothel but it would be good to go a happy and satisfied man.

FYI i don't believe in any day of judgement or afterlife however i think the mainland Chinese have the best attitude towards death, it's how you are remembered

 

[-=SS=-]

Even if life feels as though it is not worth living now, you may later reach a point when life feels worth living again. I recently almost died and when the lights seemed like they were going out, I realized that I had a lot of people I wanted to speak with before I passed. I had been living in a reckless way and had been hoping for a painless death prior to that, funny how once you seem to be getting what you want, you realize that thing isn't actually what you wanted. I need to make it right with the people I love or have loved before I die, I know that now. Sometimes I still want to die, or even kill myself, but I won't be satisfied until I've received closure on some things.

No doubt I would have similar feelings that you had in regards to wanting to connect and make things right, but then it's paradoxical because no matter how much you say or don't say it will never ever be enough. Perhaps it's the way it's meant to be.. the lack of closure from the other persons perspective forces them to think a bit about life? Connection to others irks me a lot, I mean so much of our social interactions are hollow going-through-the-motions type of interactions, but then even with those you truely connect with it just never seems like enough.

I had a very prominent dream awhile back where I was in a state of despair, was lucid and called out for an answer, and it's the only time I've had the sensation of getting one from something.. the answer was given and it was essentially all that really matters is our connection to each other. Find yourself and help others find themselves. Everything else is irrelevant. Which in the context of the modern world is quite painful.. given how community and family have been under consistent attack and we're more isolated than ever.

My friend killed himself two months ago, and I look at the sorrow from his family and other friends and I realize he never got honest with them completely about his day to day suffering. I knew he suffered and I hope he is at peace now, I believe he is at peace now personally. But I don't want to go if the last thing I've I've told any of my loved ones isn't I love you. I suffer from depression day to day, but I can't end things before I see my younger siblings through college for lack of a better time frame. So I have to live fore at least 5 more years and living is hard, but I know I have to try at least until I can have some clear closure. That is my experience and hope people can understand and take something from it.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Perhaps he felt he couldn't communicate his suffering, or did not want to lay that burden on others? Having tried to communicate how I feel at deep level to my closest friend, who himself is very philosophical and intellectual, and realizing how futile it can be.. it's.. frustrating. Language just can't seem to touch certain convictions or experiences. Like yourself I feel the same way in I would want to wait for a better time frame, specifically for my parents to pass first. But then I wouldn't want to leave my younger brother (20) who has been very successful in his life so far, or crash the wave he is currently riding.

That happens to a lot of people who tend to think deeply and who are philosophical. Life is a long hard slog. The older you are, the worse it gets.

Haha thanks man, just the encouragement I needed Reminds me of the song "Dogs" by Pink Floyd. That's part of my issue.. I've seen, read, heard from enough older people to get a sense of perspective on how foolish/pointless life is. You can see it in a lot of their faces too.. it just shows with brutal honesty. Which is also very beautiful. Incidentally it bugs me just how poorly we treat old people when they have so much to offer in terms of wisdom.

 

[swilow]

We infantilise the old. No wonder we all dread being one!

 

[socko]

We infantilise the old. No wonder we all dread being one!

Dementia is terrifyingly common. At age 60, around 5% of the population suffer from dementia. Half th etime it is in the form of Alzheimers disease. Among 85 year olds, 1/4 to 1/2 have reached their second childhood. You can imagine their condition. They disply severe neuropsychiatric sympotms like paranoia, delusions, and rage. Cognitively, they might not know where they are, who their family and friends are or who they are. They can no longer perform daily living tasks.

 

[swilow]

I know quite a few more old people with all their marbles then not. Simply because a significant number exhibit signs of dementia says nothing about the whole.

 

[-=SS=-]

My grandma is 85 and has more energy than my dad at 65! Volunteers, always busy doing something, can't get her to sit still. I would put it down to having been always active, no drink or drugs, countryside living and good quality food.

 

[Boku_]

My grandma is 85 and has more energy than my dad at 65! Volunteers, always busy doing something, can't get her to sit still. I would put it down to having been always active, no drink or drugs, countryside living and good quality food.

Some people have good genes, but yes lifestyle is a big factor however i know many elderly people in they're late 70's at my local pub who are drinkers and smokers and they are still clinging on to life. I also see many social gamblers who play slot machines everyday and make gambling they're only vice living long lives.

 

[Foreigner]

My prediction is that the younger generations of today will have higher levels of dimentia as the next wave of seniors. They use their brains/minds wayyyyy more than the previous generations, for frivolousness like social media. Ungroundedness and adrenal depletion make up a big chunk of the clients I see. People don't seem to realize that they're not their minds, and that they have the freedom to turn their minds off. Being constantly plugged in seems hazardous.