A felt presence from a tree, real and objective, or an hallucination?

[johannes kreisler]

Quantum physics show that the nature of a particle is dependent upon the mode of observation, thus showing that experience is part of the fundamental fabric of reality.

never thought about it that way.
I wonder if you think the fundamental interactions are "enough" for the universe to experience itself or if the human consciousness is a "special device" creating this flavor of reality in the first place...
I suggest the answer is somewhere in between and there is some kind of interaction between the fabric of reality and the human mind. we might know more, when physics and psychology unite (~500 years I guess ).

 

[astralprojectee]

Great responses you guys. I was in a conversation with my materialist, naturalist brother the other day. And he asked me if this world is objective. And I said yes it is objective, but it's also subjective. The reason why is that matter is actually the expression of spirit and consciousness. Before the physical universe, it was the mind of God that said I will make the physical world. BTW I am not talking about the Abrahamic God or any one deity. But our source. So in the beginning it was God that thought of the objective physical world and created it from himself. But I don't think he had a choice. God knew that there had to be a physical world, or he could not keep balance within the universe.

The reason why is that all energy and matter come from one thing. That one thing is God. We are all just conglomerations of different kinds of energy. In fact matter on the atomic level is both matter and energy. There is no such thing as matter being an absolute. It's just a different expression of energy from the one, God, our source. You every heard of the saying oneness. Being one with the universe, well we are all just different expressions of our source.

Anyway so his question is this world objective. It's both objective and subjective. So he asked me if this world is an illusion. I said, yes it is. This illusion has properties to it that you can measure only consistently on a macro scale, you can get stable effects from this illusion here. But it's still an illusion since it will not last as long as things in the upper realms. Buildings are made and destroyed. Even the world trade center didn't last that long. But things that are made in the upper realms seem to last much longer. If you don't believe me just watch that show "Life After People" on the history channel, then you will see how fragile and unstable life is here in this dimension. Then I said that through astral projection theory that I have found the most likely case is that the upper dimensions of the astral are less of an illusion while the more and more you go down in the dimensions the less and less things become stable, and the more, and more the illusions last shorter and shorter. And this statement is just a general rule I believe. Like I am sure there are exceptions. But that is generally the way it is. Which is a general rule of thumb I think. Obviously one exception to that perhaps would be by an extraterrestrial advanced societies. But I doubt even the energy and matter in those societies can last as long as that of societies in the high astral heavens.

So in the end illusion and objectivity are the same, and subjective and objective are the same. It's just another side of the coin we are looking at.

These are the most likely theories and hypothesis I have made from my studying of reality from an unbiased, open mind. I know many scientists would think I am crazy, but I do have my own reasons for believing what I do. And in the end I would say, we'll see, the world is evolving, the truths will be made known no matter what, despite wars, and down economies, things will keep evolving in science and beliefs and we will come out a better people that are equipped with better knowledge.

If you want to know the truth I think scientists in 300 years will hardly not even recognize the beliefs of our current scientists. I think science is going to advance and even evolve some.

Peace.

 

[5HToInfinity]

Anyway so his question is this world objective. It's both objective and subjective. So he asked me if this world is an illusion. I said, yes it is. This illusion has properties to it that you can measure only consistently on a macro scale, you can get stable effects from this illusion here. But it's still an illusion since it will not last as long as things in the upper realms.

I don't think things have to be illusory only because they are temporary; I think they're quite real. Despite being a fragile and ephemeral reality, it's still a reality. It's just like with Alan Watts saying that the Ego is an illusion. It's a temporary structure that can be dismantled and reconstructed. But it's still real.

 

[Jakeperson]

I remember my first high dose LSD trip gave me a taste of slightly delusional thinking. These thoughts would pop into my head and seem pretty reasonable for a few seconds or maybe a minute or two, before I could dismiss them as silly nonsense.

Grid type patterns overlaying stuff similar to Alex Grey paintings. I thought how this was some sort of underlying energy that is everywhere, but I can only see on LSD 8)

Moving my cell phone in a small circle left such tracers that all I would see was a lighted circle. This led me to believe that I was spread throughout time. Seeing things that happened maybe 2 seconds in the past and 2 seconds into the future.

I think its just silly ideas.

People talk about some pretty far out stuff. I would just ask for proof.

There's a difference between recognizing you are hallucinating patterns and believing what you are seeing is some sort of electromagnetic field.

Thanks to HPPD, those patters are always there for me, more so if I focus on them. I don't believe it is a disorder any more, I can choose to focus on it or not but I always see it. It is as real as anything else.

 

[notaduck]

it is quite real that everything is connected and that everything makes sense if you dig deep enough. and it is absolutely real that reality is nothing but a very, very dynamic and very, very, very complex array of electromagnetic radiation (with the setup of human radiation sensors having developed to focus on the very narrow spectrum most useful for our survival).
but it's not only about sensual perception. what some decent psychoactives do is to deconstruct the deception (imprinted in the structure of our brain/mind by evolution; same mechanism as with the sensory input) that reality is discrete, dichotomous, causal, deterministic, materialistic, arbitrary and mundane and that it can be understood by reducing the whole into particles small enough for human beings to press them into patterns, concepts and numbers - which is ultimately impossible as reality is not a state but a process.

how you interpret - and act out - the sudden realization of insights like those is up to you. maybe you will stare at a mountain or you hug a tree or you just close your eyes and see yourself. affection-wise you are probably engulfed in feelings of awe, humility, love, peace and gratefulness.
the "presence" you have in mind is a principle that seems to be deeply imprinted in everything there is. in a tree, in a mountain, in the keyboard in front of you eyes, in every atom of your body, your brain, everything. and everyone. truly universal. being aware of it is a mere matter of concentration. but it's easier with things that are aesthetically appealing to the human mind (reasons above^).

btw: one of those insights might also be that there is no such thing as "real phenomena" versus phenomena "just made up by the mind [from the drug]". it is the same. inseparable. however that doesn't explain anything about the "true nature of reality" or if there even is one "true nature of reality". it just shows what the human mind is capable to comprehend and what not. or what is actually meant to be directly comprehensible for the human mind - and what not.


this is the perspective of the psychonaut but this very story can be told be a psychologist, a physicist, a philosopher (and maybe a good theologist) - just in a different language. no esoterics involved.


[sorry, poor english on this topic ...and disorderly mind from my aMT+2c-B+weed post-(pre-)fuck-up regimen of piracetam, lorazepam, ethylphenidat and beer. 8) ]

Well spoken.