71 dead found in a truck abandoned in Austria

[alasdairm]

Do you have any idea how many people the UK took on last year through immigration? 600,000. That's the official number, not including illegal immigrants. So it's more like 1 million.

can i see some substantiation of your claim that ~400,000 illegal immigrants entered the uk last year. thanks.

alasdair

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/36...egal-immigrants-one-in-four-of-the-EU-s-total

Granted thats not a yearly total...the number voukd be close vonsider illegal immigrants here longer would likely be granted visas/asylum and no longer be illegal or deported. So these numbers are likely recent/last year.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

can i see some substantiation of your claim that ~400,000 illegal immigrants entered the uk last year. thanks.

Just under 40,000 were stopped successfully according to Home Office stats. Official stats for the number who make it in obviously don't exist. Drugs don't seem to have much trouble getting through our borders despite all our sophisticated efforts.. you can bet people smuggling is just as successful.

 

[alasdairm]

so you just made it up. thanks for confirming.

alasdair

 

[RedWhiteNTrue]

so you just made it up. thanks for confirming.

alasdair

Did you read his post 600,000 if official number and he estimated illegals! Whats difference of numbers, I've yet to hear you or any other far left "free movement" people say there should be any limit whatsoever. Nonetheless, as a country that gives asylum seekers posh condos in London, free health care and bends over backwards its no coincidence its #1 destination for migrants. Hell Britain produced Shakespeare, produced the Beatles, now we can add Jihadi John and Anjem Choudry to that list!

 

[alasdairm]

Did you read his post 600,000 if official number and he estimated illegals!

yep. you agree - he just made it up. thanks.

I've yet to hear you or any other far left "free movement" people say there should be any limit whatsoever.

i'm not a "free movement" person. i think there should be limits.

alasdair

 

[drug_mentor]

So? I didn't chose to be born in this country or any other.. my birth happened. I am where I am. I will not feel guilty for something that had absolutely nothing to do with me.

Equally, these people did not choose to be born where they were born. Surely you don't think it is fair that you should be entitled to a better standard of living purely on the basis of luck? I am not asking you to feel guilty about anything, I am telling you that it is selfish to prioritise a perceived reduction of your very comfortable lifestyle over the plight of millions who did nothing to deserve the abhorrent conditions they are fleeing.

When you consider further that the reasons the place of your birth is comfortable and the reasons this is not so for many places refugees come from are somewhat correlated, it makes even less sense to somehow think you are entitled to this level of comfort at the expense of others.

I didn't vote for these idiots or sanction their decision making. Tony Blair acted illegally and still has yet to be held to account for his war crimes. That was his choice, not the collective nations choice. Holding an entire nation to account for the bullshit of a small corrupt element is ridiculous. No where is it written that all persons of a democracy shall be held to account for the actions of its leaders. You prosecute the leaders, not the nation.

We don't have a responsibility to make things right. That is not law. We can choose to help, which we should, but on our terms.

I don't see a bunch of Britons carrying on about having Tony Blair tried for his crimes the way they are carrying on about immigration. The British public tacitly endorsed these crimes and to claim it is a choice whether or not to make things right says a lot about your moral character.

Again, I place my cultural preservation above these people. Sorry, but if it's a choice between me and them, I'm going to chose me and our system. I will not be made to feel responsible for the actions of other people who leverage the power of this nation to play their silly little games on the international stage. I am FULLY aware of what we have done, and was as it was happening, which can't be said for most people. Not a day goes by when it doesn't piss me off. It's a ridiculous situation.

You seem to be acknowledging here that most of your countrymen endorsed the war crimes which have displaced these people. This strongly undermines your position that the people should not be held to any account for the behaviour of their leaders.

Also, you are talking about a false dichotomy. There is not a choice between helping refugees and preserving your culture, it is possible to do both. You are choosing to predict an unlikely worst case scenario as a justification to renege on your international obligations, it is a joke.

You have no clue mate. Saudi Arabia were involved in financing the anti-regime forces in Syria. They were clearly involved in all of this.

Here is a clue mate, Saudi Arabia is not a signatory to the UN 1951 Refugee Convention, the UK is. That means the UK has a legal obligation and they don't. I agree that Saudi Arabia has a moral obligation, but as a country with an abhorrent human rights record I can't say I am surprised they are not fulfilling this obligation.

If your argument boils down to "some of the worst human rights violators in the world aren't respecting human rights, so we shouldn't either" then I would say that it is a very poor argument, especially in light of the fact said human rights violator lacks the relevant legal responsibilities and the UK doesn't.

 

[Bagseed]

last time I checked everyone I know my age is struggling, many older people are struggling, most people are barely keeping themselves together.

problem is that what we here call "struggling" is a fucking joke compared to what most of these people are going through. no matter if they're from africa or the middle east or wherever. you can imagine that someone who is willing to cross the sea in a paddleboat must be really fucking desparate, or not?

Most Europeans (excluding maybe poor regions in the east / non EU) have it better than anybody else on this planet, even those considered "poor". and economical exploitation of the third world by us is a big part of why these countries are so poor and there is so much conflict.

 

[What 23]

Drug Mentor you say you don't want him to feel guilty for being a White European, but you're basically asking him to give up stability because it is "fair". What a stupid argument.

 

[What 23]

I'm not against helping people but these SJWs are like hypersensitive reactions. I sort of wonder if we joined the wrong side in WWII like Patton said.

 

[drug_mentor]

Drug Mentor you say you don't want him to feel guilty for being a White European, but you're basically asking him to give up stability because it is "fair". What a stupid argument.

By this logic a thief who gains stability through his ill gotten gains shouldn't have to give them up either.

Lets do a quick hypothetical. Imagine your grandfather was a rich businessman who had all the resources he needed to make sure his/your family was taken care of for generations, and that another rich businessman came along and stole all of your fathers resources, not because he really needed them, but because he felt like building a bigger empire for himself. Lets also imagine that for whatever reason, there were inadequate legal measures in place and your grandfather never recovered his wealth, nor did the thief get punished. As a result of this, your grandfathers children had an extremely poor standard of living, some of them starved, others had to resort to crime to support themselves and could never get good jobs because their criminal records followed them around.

Fast forward a little, and your parents have you, and you are still living in an economic nightmare. Lets suppose all the while this has gone on, the businessman who stole your families wealth has invested it wisely, as have his children and their children, resulting in a considerable fortune much greater than they actually need. Imagine that you asked the grandchildren of the thieving businessman, who were incidentally completely aware of his having committed this theft and the injury it has caused your family, to give you some money to make up for it. Not all their money, not even close, just a small share so you too could live a relatively comfortable life. Imagine if these grandchildren responded by telling you that while they know it would only be fair for them to yield to such a request, they simply would not do so as they did not see fit to concede any of their "stability". I would bet a great deal of money that if all this were to take place you would consider both the response of the grandchildren, and the fact you had no legal recourse against them, to be absolutely outrageous.

What I just described is analogous to former colonial powers denying that they have any responsibility towards those living in countries whose resources they raped for their own benefit. It is unjust, and it should not be allowed to happen.

 

[What 23]

your analogy is a fucking joke. the mid-east has been fuckey for a long long time, and many of the peoples ancestors invaded Europe over and over again, or tried. They were repelled. Europe was prosperous. The world has been at war for a long time. Fighting never stops. Competition. People like you seem to not comprehend that there are winners and losers. Europe should not take on this endless wave of "refugees". And they don't owe them jack. Europe could have been prosperous on their own. They have ample resources, water, land to farm.

And like I have said before... The entire human species is basically what you just said. They took something, from something else. There were no "laws" to "punish" our ancestors. And probably like I said before, nothing personal, but if you want to keep it up with your mentality, you might as well eat yourself and die (or something, just end yourself, because YOU ARE THEFT OF NATURE). I don't really mean this as a personal attack, but on your philosophy. It is just stupid. Sorry (not sorry).

 

[drug_mentor]

your analogy is a fucking joke. the mid-east has been fuckey for a long long time, and many of the peoples ancestors invaded Europe over and over again, or tried. They were repelled. Europe was prosperous. The world has been at war for a long time. Fighting never stops. Competition. People like you seem to not comprehend that there are winners and losers. Europe should not take on this endless wave of "refugees". And they don't owe them jack. Europe could have been prosperous on their own. They have ample resources, water, land to farm.

And like I have said before... The entire human species is basically what you just said. They took something, from something else. There were no "laws" to "punish" our ancestors. And probably like I said before, nothing personal, but if you want to keep it up with your mentality, you might as well eat yourself and die (or something, just end yourself, because YOU ARE THEFT OF NATURE). I don't really mean this as a personal attack, but on your philosophy. It is just stupid. Sorry (not sorry).

If we take your philosophy to its logical conclusion we should cease to have laws which govern behaviour at all. To the winner go the spoils, there is no such thing as property, just those strong enough to hold on to things and those with things for the strong to take, etc. It is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. The whole point of civilisation is we are supposed to have moved past that bullshit, part of moving on from wrongdoing is making an effort to right your wrongs.

If Europe could have been prosperous on their own perhaps they should have done just that, they didn't, and now they have an immigration "problem" that they won't stop whinging about. It truly is a joke.

Conservatives seem to take this perspective as one of feeling guilty, it isn't. It is about doing what is right. I don't have to feel guilty for the bad actions of other people, but as someone who wants to live in a just society, I am a strong advocate for policies which seek to right the wrongs which were done in the name of my nation.

The Middle East has been "fuckey" since Western powers arbitrarily divided it up in to states which were propped up by dictatorial regimes. The West has been meddling in the Middle East for the last hundred years for financial and political gain. Westerners tend to assume the Middle East is this ass backwards shit hole where everyone is some kind of degenerate or fanatic, and that it has always been this way. The truth of the matter is the people of the Middle East have been getting shit on by powerful states for a century and it has historically been a prosperous region which has made significant contributions to science, mathematics and medicine.

 

[What 23]

Is it fair to my children, if I live in a town that has settled on pretty common values that women should be treated with respect, and should be able to choose their own life-path, and if we don't feel threatened by each other, to suddenly allow the replacement of our population? We are declining in birth-rates, and if left up to ourselves (outside of our corporate rulers), we would find a way to survive. We could do it. But our declining birth-rates are being matched by an increase of non-White, non-Christian (heritage) population, who also have more children, and do not exactly share our values, or beliefs on how to live. Do you think Sweden is justice? Like I have said before, if it comes to my children, and my children's children living free, and sustained by the land that their ancestors have occupied for thousands of years, or giving it up "to be fair" to foreigners, I would rather just dispatch the foreigners from this world all together. Yep. Cruel. I don't believe death is a punishment. And I do believe the world is pretty much under the ownership of whomever is the most cunning (or lucky, whichever), and that is how it has always been. I do think there is something to be said for compassion. It is how we became civilized. If these traits didn't survive... Those that help the weak, we'd be reptiles that didn't look after our young.

I don't know.

I just know that this isn't the way. I've said before I'd rather ALL refugees come to the U.S., and Canada (Mainly the U.S.). So this isn't clear cut and dry xenophobia. Or lack of compassion. I guess I just see Europe as a home base to my ancestry, and I don't want to see it on it's way to Brown Muslim land in the next 100 years.

Yea, they made plenty of contributions. When they were in Spain, I think they were more liberal/allowing of science than the Christians. Lately though they've just been fucked. I don't think it is a direct result of "Europeans", but it is like we are all caught in tides, and it is hard to see where the tides are going, or coming from... or how best to ride them. I think their issue is the "system". Just the way things have unfolded. Basically, with my not wanting Europe to be overcrowded by foreigners, I want to to what is smart, for my family. And that is not allowing a population in with totally different flows, beliefs, birth-rates, that will replace them.

But... Hmm. Honestly, lately I've been less racist. I do think that there is responsibility to these people, to help them. I think it is the right choice. I'd just rather they came to the colonies, instead of the source. I don't even consider myself to be the same as English people. I'm more Irish. Or Germans. I'm American. I'm a mixture. And I'd rather they come here, with all of us crazies. This is the experiment land. We can take it.

If I'm making a lot less sense than normal my mouth needs a lot of attention, and it is fucking up my brain.

But the middle east and arabia has been fucked a lot longer than 100 years. But the pressure for oil, I'm sure, has done something unique.

 

[What 23]

I've had thoughts that the best way to handle this... To "Win", would be love. To just let it go, and adapt. Hope that the new populations integrate. Be open.
Kind of like Neo letting in Agent Smith.

I fear (but I know that this is wrong, in a way) that this crisis has been engineered, though... And like I said, I don't know about the tides, and they make me wish I just had a huge nuke-proof mech to lay down the "law" with. Or army of Terminators. Ha.

 

[drug_mentor]

You are all over the place man. One post you are saying there are winners and losers and nobody owes anybody anything, now you acknowledge there is some responsibility to help, which is it? It can't be both.

Your world view is so ego centric. You don't seem to have much sympathy for those whom your ancestors fucked over, you seem to have little regard for the cultural genocides which have taken place the world over thanks to European colonialism. The whole thrust of my argument is that these people wouldn't have to immigrate if they hadn't been fucked over by us, it is more than a bit rich to claim hardship now that people are coming in droves from the third world (which we created).

You are focused on assuming that immigration will entail an unfair situation for you and your children (despite the fact it probably wont) whilst more or less disregarding the fact that stopping people from immigrating to places where they can have a reasonable standard of living is a grossly and unambiguously unfair situation right now. Fair means you consider everyone's interests, not just your own. Western policy has been purely self-centered for far too long, it is about time we start making things right.

For the record, whilst I am an open borders type of guy, in the cases of places which don't happen to be active war zones, I believe the best solution is investing in these countries so that the people can have a good standard of living in their countries of birth, and aren't forced to uproot themselves in order to have economic stability and freedom from persecution.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Conservatives seem to take this perspective as one of feeling guilty, it isn't. It is about doing what is right. I don't have to feel guilty for the bad actions of other people, but as someone who wants to live in a just society, I am a strong advocate for policies which seek to right the wrongs which were done in the name of my nation

Doing what is right? For whom exactly..

Everyone wants to live in a just society, where we all have food, water, education, freedom and benefits of a modern world. The fastest way we are going to get there is by using what we have as a launching pad, to innovate and prosper. Feeling we need to level the playing field out so everyone has a tiny bit of everything is the fastest way to destroy this launching pad. Civilization is the result of violence and holding ground, holding resources, so we have TIME and SPACE to THINK. If we lower the standard across the board, which is what is happening, where money gets tighter and quality of life goes down, we have less time and space to think.. the only people who will have it will be the super-rich, not you and me.. and it is you and me who are going to change this world, if we ever change it. Not the super-rich who don't give a flying fuck.

The migrant wave certainly do not give a fuck. They are happy to use smart phones and wear nice clothes, but their cultural paradigm is several hundred years behind where we are in Europe. That is just how it is. Their system has not produced anything remarkable for centuries, they continue to treat each other like shit generally, and murder each other over some fucking stupid religious/cult like belief system. They had a moment in the past, long before we had ours in the Middle Ages, but that is ancient history.. and they are unlikely to have another any time soon. The European-American-Global system we have today is the dominant cultural paradigm.. our time is based on it.. our laws are based on it.. our modern technology has come from it.. all the Middle East is producing right now is oil.

Yeh we might not be struggling in the sense we're not starving or being hit by bombs.. but you forget this is the most stable period of world history we have ever known. It is not guaranteed to stay this way. We already know we (my generation, not my parents who will be dead) will face food problems, water problems, environmental problems of several kinds, and god knows what else. The last thing we need right now is half of the African and Middle Eastern continent pouring into Europe and bringing us closer to catastrophe than we already are.

We are not entitled to what we have. No one is. Anywhere. But what you're asking is for us to give up what we have achieved just because its "right", to a bunch of people who will contribute to breaking it down and build nothing of worth in its place. Is that what you really want? You need to get real. The Middle Eastern folk (apart from Israel) simply do not give a shit about our cultural paradigm. They are happy to use its fruits, but if it came down to it they will stick with their crappy religion over embracing real progress.

 

[drug_mentor]

Doing what is right? For whom exactly..

Everyone wants to live in a just society, where we all have food, water, education, freedom and benefits of a modern world. The fastest way we are going to get there is by using what we have as a launching pad, to innovate and prosper. Feeling we need to level the playing field out so everyone has a tiny bit of everything is the fastest way to destroy this launching pad. Civilization is the result of violence and holding ground, holding resources, so we have TIME and SPACE to THINK. If we lower the standard across the board, which is what is happening, where money gets tighter and quality of life goes down, we have less time and space to think.. the only people who will have it will be the super-rich, not you and me.. and it is you and me who are going to change this world, if we ever change it. Not the super-rich who don't give a flying fuck.

The migrant wave certainly do not give a fuck. They are happy to use smart phones and wear nice clothes, but their cultural paradigm is several hundred years behind where we are in Europe. That is just how it is. Their system has not produced anything remarkable for centuries, they continue to treat each other like shit generally, and murder each other over some fucking stupid religious/cult like belief system. They had a moment in the past, long before we had ours in the Middle Ages, but that is ancient history.. and they are unlikely to have another any time soon. The European-American-Global system we have today is the dominant cultural paradigm.. our time is based on it.. our laws are based on it.. our modern technology has come from it.. all the Middle East is producing right now is oil.

Yeh we might not be struggling in the sense we're not starving or being hit by bombs.. but you forget this is the most stable period of world history we have ever known. It is not guaranteed to stay this way. We already know we (my generation, not my parents who will be dead) will face food problems, water problems, environmental problems of several kinds, and god knows what else. The last thing we need right now is half of the African and Middle Eastern continent pouring into Europe and bringing us closer to catastrophe than we already are.

We are not entitled to what we have. No one is. Anywhere. But what you're asking is for us to give up what we have achieved just because its "right", to a bunch of people who will contribute to breaking it down and build nothing of worth in its place. Is that what you really want? You need to get real. The Middle Eastern folk (apart from Israel) simply do not give a shit about our cultural paradigm. They are happy to use its fruits, but if it came down to it they will stick with their crappy religion over embracing real progress.

This is essentially just a racist tirade. The problems in the Middle East largely stem from the fact that the people have been denied self-determination for a century due to the intervention of Western powers, to deny this would be delusional. To argue that we shouldn't let them in because they are "behind", without acknowledgement of the fact that we held them behind so we could get ahead is either illogical, disingenuous or evil. I will extend you the benefit of the doubt and take you to be one of the former.

I like how you didn't address any of the post where I explained why your whole argument is ridiculous.

I must confess, I do get a bit of sadistic pleasure in knowing that xenophobic and hateful individuals like yourself are going to be forced to squirm around uncomfortably as the ethnic landscape of your state changes. I do hope that one day you will come to your senses and realise that these immigrants, like yourself, are just people. They are not inherently bad, and part of the reason they want to immigrate to your country is because they see the merit in the cultural values of that country. Your racist doomsday predictions are not going to come to fruition, but you aren't going to stop all of these refugees from getting in, you might as well get used to it.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I must confess, I do get a bit of sadistic pleasure in knowing that xenophobic and hateful individuals like yourself are going to be forced to squirm around uncomfortably as the ethnic landscape of your state changes. I do hope that one day you will come to your senses and realise that these immigrants, like yourself, are just people. They are not inherently bad, and part of the reason they want to immigrate to your country is because they see the merit in the cultural values of that country. Your racist doomsday predictions are not going to come to fruition, but you aren't going to stop all of these refugees from getting in, you might as well get used to it.

And there we have it. It's not so much about me 'hating' these people as it is about you hating the Western world. Classic inverted liberal thinking. It's alright for everyone else to value cultural preservation.. but apparently we're not allowed to, we have to feel a sense of shame about our history and give it all away.

See, I don't hate these people despite what you think. I recognize they are humans like myself. What I understand, and you don't, is actually they don't see the merit in our cultural values. They see the economic prosperity and technology.. they see the pleasure they could have.. but that's all. Hence why Muslims have failed so monumentally to integrate properly into our culture.. they just do not care for it. They will happily use all the fruits of our cultural paradigm and still try to establish their little Islamic ghettos in our towns and cities. Once the numbers get great enough they will demand a more favourable Islamic law be integrated into our culture, and once the demographics are there we won't be able to stop it by the virtue of our own system.

If the tables were turned here do you believe they would welcome half of Europe coming to the Middle East and not treat us like dirt? Get real.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I highly recommend everyone, regardless of your position on this topic, listen to this. It is Nigel Farage (UKIP) taking calls and explaining his situation on LBC Radio. You won't hear this kind of intelligence coming out of any of our major politicians. Starts at 0:30.