Brenthoward
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2015
- Messages
- 11
THIS POST
I want to start off by saying that just because this specific group had a specific result, it by no means suggests that the behaviour of this group should be taken as the norm or as a definitive guide on how to or not to behave. While the collective knowledge of the group is rather high, all members of the group would always suggest it's better to be safe than sorry. Also note that the understanding of even basic chemicals in the brain and the brain itself holds much illusion to even the most advanced neuroscientists in the world.
THE GROUP
A group of 5 people ended up taking part in something that would end up being a 5 year journey into the world of MDMA. All 5 people met while in university in a chemistry class. As it would turn out, all 5 in the group would go on to not only become friends, but work in the field of medicine and science.
The group, at the time of taking MDMA and for 5 years after (which is present day) were all of a similar background which makes this situation a bit interesting. Participant details:
Age 29-33 at the onset of taking MDMA,
All had high paying careers in various aspects of medicine
All had comfortable personal lifestyles with limited stress
All did not drink (3 of the 5 never even drank at their own wedding)
All have an abnormally high level of antioxidants in their diet since their late teens early 20's
3 of the 5 took test prop and test enth to supplement their workouts (on and off cycle for years with correct PCT)
All non-smokers although 2 of the 5 occasionally smoke marijuana
THE BEGINNING
The group didn't set out to jump into the MDMA world. In fact, the group had gone to raves in their earlier years while taking part in their undergrad or masters programs and not once thought about taking anything other than a lot of sleep the day after.
It wasn't until one member of the group was faced with a personal family tragedy, that they ended up taking MDMA. The next day, like many other scenarios I'm sure, they started to beg the rest of the group to take it since they were all good friends for nearly 10 years and felt that it would be an experience like non-other.
The group was very tight but with 2 people having PhDs in chemistry, another working in Psychology (specifically related to how personality and behaviour is effected by brain chemistry), an MD starting to specialist in brain science and another as an associate at a university, there was some concern.
The group essentially knows what they are getting into and was open, but apprehensive. The group generally was very healthy and even when they took external substances for exercise, there was often weeks of research that went into even the smallest decision.
This would be no different and the journey began and took on a life of it's own.
THE RULES
The group of course wanted to make sure that what they were taking was indeed MDMA so the group got some and tested it, in a lab and ended up going through a few batches before getting what would be essentially pharma-grade product. This was the first step since having pure product is essential.
Next the group researched the hell out of MDMA and sadly wasn't able to come up with much. There have been no long term clinical trials that substantiate truth. There are too many reports that conflict, or there is no way to verify the validity of the comments other than "Some guy on a forum says 'X'"
With that said, there was some conclusions that were drawn:
1. Taking 5-HTP appeared to have the potential to create dependency and potentially mess up the body's natural process of production (this is even during the short term). The group determined the only supplements that would be useful would be antioxidants.
2. Re-dosing was out of the question. As a metaphor, if you wring a towel out and then keep trying to wring it out, that is putting undue additional stress on the receptors in the brain. It also has the potential to extend the time-frame at which your brain temperature is elevated which is one of the leading causes of brain damage (this is generally as well as in an MDMA setting).
3. We capped doses at 220mg with the smallest dose being 150mg.
4. We did not draw a conclusion that one should wait every 3 months between doses although there is supportive evidence that suggests 'more time' means 'more recovery'. While there was some medical evidence to support that the brain can take up to 60 days to regulate chemical changes, there are also studies that supported longer times and shorter times as well. Since there was no long term test results as to how long exactly MDMA recovery would take this was based more on feeling. Do I feel okay or do I feel 'off'?
5. Water intake for the group was always high with most taking in 3.5-5 litres of water daily.
6. Setting. The group agreed that they would always keep their temperature as cool as possible to avoid overheating.
7. The day after taking MDMA. We had not yet known how long this adventure was going to last but we had a full regiment for the day after taking MDMA. It included going to the gym, working out aggressively, and eating a normal healthy diet. This was normal daily life for the group and the group would continue to keep healthy and continue the same lifestyle no matter what.
YEAR 1
The first time was awesome and it was clear that the group's first time rolling was not going to be the last. In fact, one person started rolling right out of the gate what we would call excessively. Once every 2 weeks for the first month and then every week after that.
In their first year they had 60 nights at approx 200mg each time. That's right. In year one, person A consumed 12 grams of the stuff.
The lightest user was on and off but was pretty heavy with 150mg each time for about 30 times which is 3 grams.
RESULTS
Sadly, this is where posts like this can cause problems for others. The group knew exactly what they were getting into. They knew MDMA would rewire their brain and they knew that there was the risk of 'losing the magic' or becoming an idiot.
The problem is that the group was waiting for some kind of sign that they should slow down. While there was some bad comedowns here and there, it wasn't THAT bad. The group would just hit the gym the next day and while there were sometimes tears, within a few days everything was back to normal. All were able to function at work, some had families that were still functioning just as it always was.
There was one time where week 20 was starting to get rough for a comedown, but then week 21 produced a great roll, almost no comedown at all, and a 4 day afterglow. As there was ups and downs and no progressive decline, the need to stop was not on the menu.
In fact, the argument was that the group was closer than ever before and the people in the group that were a bit more aggressive or rude, ended up becoming more empathetic and kind. One guy's wife was actually happy at how he had become much more attentive to her and how they just seemed happier.
Sadly year 1 with excessive use produced no changes that would be perceived as negative. I say sadly because we all knew this was not something that could continue. It is also worth mentioning that if the first experience was a 10 by the end of the first year, it was not rare to have a 7 or 8 experience.
YEAR 2
Year two was pretty much the same as the previous year however we all had slowed down. For the group, loss of magic was more like eating the same food every day. It was still good but it was predictable. This has been discussed to the ends of the Earth and the reality is that chemically for some people, they perhaps lose the 'magic'. There is actually a lot of psychology behind this that has both chemical and non-chemical elements to it.
REGARDING LOSS OF MAGIC
Some people have pre-dispositions to specific illness, behaviours, and brain chemistry itself. For example, there are some people that simply cannot watch the same movie over and over again. Even a really good movie, some people just don't see the point. Once it's watched it's watched and it loses the sizzle very quickly. This is part of the chemistry that is blamed for those with ADHD and related illnesses.
Those with Autism for example, generally find comfort in patterns such as doing the same things at the same times on the same days. There are general brain characteristics of those with Autism that reflect brain chemistry in those with non-autism that support similar patterns. This is also similar to why older people generally do not adjust or cope with change as well as younger people. There is a different brain chemistry that takes place in a greater number of people as they age.
The reality is that most of these studies are 'theory' although they do have case studies to support their claims.
With MDMA, it's really difficult to say what it is that enables some people to abuse it and never lose the magic and some others lose it after 3 or 4 sessions. Yes the novelty wears off but is the novelty a function of chemistry? Most likely yes.
END OF YEAR 2
By the end of year two the group slowed down but was still going pretty strong. The heaviest user was taking 180mg per session and did about 40 sessions or 7.2 grams total.
The lightest user was at 150 for 20 times which is 3 grams total. Still very high and the frequency was all over the map. People took a month off and then went 3 weeks in a row etc. There was no pattern to this. At the end of year 2, there was nothing wrong with anyone in the group until...
YEAR 3
In year 3, the person who was the heaviest user got into some trouble. They started to get very grey. They were very kind and thoughtful and much nicer than they were in the beginning but they had this greyness about them. They just didn't care or have the same energy that they had before. This turned into an obsession where they would start researching about themselves and try and figure out what was wrong by self diagnosis. Within a few months into the third year, they had ordered MRI's on themselves, were doing blood tests, trying to figure out what was wrong with them. One time he would be standing with us having a conversation and they he'd feel as though the floor fell out from under him. It was this quick jarred sinking feeling.
There was minor problems with his blood pressure but all the tests came back with him appearing to be in good health. He obsessed about this and it became a bit of an addiction, figuring out what was wrong with himself. His wife was super supportive as was the rest of the group. The group rolled this year but not nearly as much. One member's negative situation put things in perspective for the rest of us. He didn't take anything for the rest of the year which was 10 months.
The rest of the group did a max of 2 grams for the whole year with the lightest user being the 2 month use of buddy until he stopped. He consumed maybe a gram total.
YEAR 4
The group really didn't do much during the first few months of year 4. I think they group maybe did it once with the 4 of them and that was it. However buddy was recovered and wanted the group to roll again at his house. The group was not so sure about this but went ahead with it anyway.
Buddy rolled back at a 9 or a 10, no loss of magic at all. The rest of the group was much the same and was a great evening.
At this point, the group only rolled once every couple of months which is where it has been even in year 5 which brings us to current day.
CONCLUSION
Did anyone watch The Wolf of Wall Street? Jordan Belfort took a lot of drugs and somehow managed to wind up alive. That is not an open door for the rest of the world to try what he did and expect the same results.
The findings of this group were not ideal because what many people read is that you can abuse the hell out of something and in the end, it will be okay. That's not a realistic assessment.
You cannot abuse anything and while 5 years later the group still lives a very happy and privileged life, there is nothing to say there will not be long term effects down the road that none of us could have anticipated.
That said, here are some key elements that the group professionally believes helps:
1. Do not redose, nobody ever did this
2. Get pure product - no purple dragons, pink elephants or whatever the hell it is. Most people don't know what they're taking, make sure you get the right stuff
3. While supplements may help you roll harder and longer, the reality is that what's making you roll harder and longer is the fact your brain is wringing out every last drop of juice it has. This is not good for you.
4. 5-HTP and anything that gets in front of the beginning to end production of serotonin is playing with fire. Think of the food chain, each step in the process is there because it builds onto the next. Cheating the system means potentially ruining the system.
5. Have a healthy lifestyle. Yes, it really sucked going to the gym the day after but it was done. Eat well, sleep well.
6. Keep your temperature down - not once did the group go out and party. All rolls were at home and during the roll everyone was having protein shakes and keeping themselves well fed
7. Support. Whenever someone was feeling like shit on a Monday, the group would be there to remind them it's the M talking and to keep positive.
8. The group was lucky in that they all live a very enjoyable life so the stresses of the world do not weigh nearly as high on this group as an average group at all.
I want to start off by saying that just because this specific group had a specific result, it by no means suggests that the behaviour of this group should be taken as the norm or as a definitive guide on how to or not to behave. While the collective knowledge of the group is rather high, all members of the group would always suggest it's better to be safe than sorry. Also note that the understanding of even basic chemicals in the brain and the brain itself holds much illusion to even the most advanced neuroscientists in the world.
THE GROUP
A group of 5 people ended up taking part in something that would end up being a 5 year journey into the world of MDMA. All 5 people met while in university in a chemistry class. As it would turn out, all 5 in the group would go on to not only become friends, but work in the field of medicine and science.
The group, at the time of taking MDMA and for 5 years after (which is present day) were all of a similar background which makes this situation a bit interesting. Participant details:
Age 29-33 at the onset of taking MDMA,
All had high paying careers in various aspects of medicine
All had comfortable personal lifestyles with limited stress
All did not drink (3 of the 5 never even drank at their own wedding)
All have an abnormally high level of antioxidants in their diet since their late teens early 20's
3 of the 5 took test prop and test enth to supplement their workouts (on and off cycle for years with correct PCT)
All non-smokers although 2 of the 5 occasionally smoke marijuana
THE BEGINNING
The group didn't set out to jump into the MDMA world. In fact, the group had gone to raves in their earlier years while taking part in their undergrad or masters programs and not once thought about taking anything other than a lot of sleep the day after.
It wasn't until one member of the group was faced with a personal family tragedy, that they ended up taking MDMA. The next day, like many other scenarios I'm sure, they started to beg the rest of the group to take it since they were all good friends for nearly 10 years and felt that it would be an experience like non-other.
The group was very tight but with 2 people having PhDs in chemistry, another working in Psychology (specifically related to how personality and behaviour is effected by brain chemistry), an MD starting to specialist in brain science and another as an associate at a university, there was some concern.
The group essentially knows what they are getting into and was open, but apprehensive. The group generally was very healthy and even when they took external substances for exercise, there was often weeks of research that went into even the smallest decision.
This would be no different and the journey began and took on a life of it's own.
THE RULES
The group of course wanted to make sure that what they were taking was indeed MDMA so the group got some and tested it, in a lab and ended up going through a few batches before getting what would be essentially pharma-grade product. This was the first step since having pure product is essential.
Next the group researched the hell out of MDMA and sadly wasn't able to come up with much. There have been no long term clinical trials that substantiate truth. There are too many reports that conflict, or there is no way to verify the validity of the comments other than "Some guy on a forum says 'X'"
With that said, there was some conclusions that were drawn:
1. Taking 5-HTP appeared to have the potential to create dependency and potentially mess up the body's natural process of production (this is even during the short term). The group determined the only supplements that would be useful would be antioxidants.
2. Re-dosing was out of the question. As a metaphor, if you wring a towel out and then keep trying to wring it out, that is putting undue additional stress on the receptors in the brain. It also has the potential to extend the time-frame at which your brain temperature is elevated which is one of the leading causes of brain damage (this is generally as well as in an MDMA setting).
3. We capped doses at 220mg with the smallest dose being 150mg.
4. We did not draw a conclusion that one should wait every 3 months between doses although there is supportive evidence that suggests 'more time' means 'more recovery'. While there was some medical evidence to support that the brain can take up to 60 days to regulate chemical changes, there are also studies that supported longer times and shorter times as well. Since there was no long term test results as to how long exactly MDMA recovery would take this was based more on feeling. Do I feel okay or do I feel 'off'?
5. Water intake for the group was always high with most taking in 3.5-5 litres of water daily.
6. Setting. The group agreed that they would always keep their temperature as cool as possible to avoid overheating.
7. The day after taking MDMA. We had not yet known how long this adventure was going to last but we had a full regiment for the day after taking MDMA. It included going to the gym, working out aggressively, and eating a normal healthy diet. This was normal daily life for the group and the group would continue to keep healthy and continue the same lifestyle no matter what.
YEAR 1
The first time was awesome and it was clear that the group's first time rolling was not going to be the last. In fact, one person started rolling right out of the gate what we would call excessively. Once every 2 weeks for the first month and then every week after that.
In their first year they had 60 nights at approx 200mg each time. That's right. In year one, person A consumed 12 grams of the stuff.
The lightest user was on and off but was pretty heavy with 150mg each time for about 30 times which is 3 grams.
RESULTS
Sadly, this is where posts like this can cause problems for others. The group knew exactly what they were getting into. They knew MDMA would rewire their brain and they knew that there was the risk of 'losing the magic' or becoming an idiot.
The problem is that the group was waiting for some kind of sign that they should slow down. While there was some bad comedowns here and there, it wasn't THAT bad. The group would just hit the gym the next day and while there were sometimes tears, within a few days everything was back to normal. All were able to function at work, some had families that were still functioning just as it always was.
There was one time where week 20 was starting to get rough for a comedown, but then week 21 produced a great roll, almost no comedown at all, and a 4 day afterglow. As there was ups and downs and no progressive decline, the need to stop was not on the menu.
In fact, the argument was that the group was closer than ever before and the people in the group that were a bit more aggressive or rude, ended up becoming more empathetic and kind. One guy's wife was actually happy at how he had become much more attentive to her and how they just seemed happier.
Sadly year 1 with excessive use produced no changes that would be perceived as negative. I say sadly because we all knew this was not something that could continue. It is also worth mentioning that if the first experience was a 10 by the end of the first year, it was not rare to have a 7 or 8 experience.
YEAR 2
Year two was pretty much the same as the previous year however we all had slowed down. For the group, loss of magic was more like eating the same food every day. It was still good but it was predictable. This has been discussed to the ends of the Earth and the reality is that chemically for some people, they perhaps lose the 'magic'. There is actually a lot of psychology behind this that has both chemical and non-chemical elements to it.
REGARDING LOSS OF MAGIC
Some people have pre-dispositions to specific illness, behaviours, and brain chemistry itself. For example, there are some people that simply cannot watch the same movie over and over again. Even a really good movie, some people just don't see the point. Once it's watched it's watched and it loses the sizzle very quickly. This is part of the chemistry that is blamed for those with ADHD and related illnesses.
Those with Autism for example, generally find comfort in patterns such as doing the same things at the same times on the same days. There are general brain characteristics of those with Autism that reflect brain chemistry in those with non-autism that support similar patterns. This is also similar to why older people generally do not adjust or cope with change as well as younger people. There is a different brain chemistry that takes place in a greater number of people as they age.
The reality is that most of these studies are 'theory' although they do have case studies to support their claims.
With MDMA, it's really difficult to say what it is that enables some people to abuse it and never lose the magic and some others lose it after 3 or 4 sessions. Yes the novelty wears off but is the novelty a function of chemistry? Most likely yes.
END OF YEAR 2
By the end of year two the group slowed down but was still going pretty strong. The heaviest user was taking 180mg per session and did about 40 sessions or 7.2 grams total.
The lightest user was at 150 for 20 times which is 3 grams total. Still very high and the frequency was all over the map. People took a month off and then went 3 weeks in a row etc. There was no pattern to this. At the end of year 2, there was nothing wrong with anyone in the group until...
YEAR 3
In year 3, the person who was the heaviest user got into some trouble. They started to get very grey. They were very kind and thoughtful and much nicer than they were in the beginning but they had this greyness about them. They just didn't care or have the same energy that they had before. This turned into an obsession where they would start researching about themselves and try and figure out what was wrong by self diagnosis. Within a few months into the third year, they had ordered MRI's on themselves, were doing blood tests, trying to figure out what was wrong with them. One time he would be standing with us having a conversation and they he'd feel as though the floor fell out from under him. It was this quick jarred sinking feeling.
There was minor problems with his blood pressure but all the tests came back with him appearing to be in good health. He obsessed about this and it became a bit of an addiction, figuring out what was wrong with himself. His wife was super supportive as was the rest of the group. The group rolled this year but not nearly as much. One member's negative situation put things in perspective for the rest of us. He didn't take anything for the rest of the year which was 10 months.
The rest of the group did a max of 2 grams for the whole year with the lightest user being the 2 month use of buddy until he stopped. He consumed maybe a gram total.
YEAR 4
The group really didn't do much during the first few months of year 4. I think they group maybe did it once with the 4 of them and that was it. However buddy was recovered and wanted the group to roll again at his house. The group was not so sure about this but went ahead with it anyway.
Buddy rolled back at a 9 or a 10, no loss of magic at all. The rest of the group was much the same and was a great evening.
At this point, the group only rolled once every couple of months which is where it has been even in year 5 which brings us to current day.
CONCLUSION
Did anyone watch The Wolf of Wall Street? Jordan Belfort took a lot of drugs and somehow managed to wind up alive. That is not an open door for the rest of the world to try what he did and expect the same results.
The findings of this group were not ideal because what many people read is that you can abuse the hell out of something and in the end, it will be okay. That's not a realistic assessment.
You cannot abuse anything and while 5 years later the group still lives a very happy and privileged life, there is nothing to say there will not be long term effects down the road that none of us could have anticipated.
That said, here are some key elements that the group professionally believes helps:
1. Do not redose, nobody ever did this
2. Get pure product - no purple dragons, pink elephants or whatever the hell it is. Most people don't know what they're taking, make sure you get the right stuff
3. While supplements may help you roll harder and longer, the reality is that what's making you roll harder and longer is the fact your brain is wringing out every last drop of juice it has. This is not good for you.
4. 5-HTP and anything that gets in front of the beginning to end production of serotonin is playing with fire. Think of the food chain, each step in the process is there because it builds onto the next. Cheating the system means potentially ruining the system.
5. Have a healthy lifestyle. Yes, it really sucked going to the gym the day after but it was done. Eat well, sleep well.
6. Keep your temperature down - not once did the group go out and party. All rolls were at home and during the roll everyone was having protein shakes and keeping themselves well fed
7. Support. Whenever someone was feeling like shit on a Monday, the group would be there to remind them it's the M talking and to keep positive.
8. The group was lucky in that they all live a very enjoyable life so the stresses of the world do not weigh nearly as high on this group as an average group at all.
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