5-HTP + B6 = bad combo??

[Leisuremaster]

Firstly, I know there's been plenty of discussion about 5-HTP and preloading/postloading on this site and I don't want to repeat questions but I don't think this one has been brought up.
Most of the stuff I've read about pre/postloading includes vitamin B as one of the things you should take (to help with the seratonin production). I recently found some info that tends to disagree with this theory (at least in the context that we're using it). This is the link: http://smartbodyz.com/5HTPStJohnsText.htm#5HTPText
It basically says that seratonin is produced in both the blood and in the brain and the the seratonin in the brain has to be produced in the brain and the seratonin in the blood is produced in the blood ie. seratonin from the blood cannot be transferred into the brain (it can't cross the blood brain barrier). So the 5-HTP you take needs to cross the blood brain barrier and get into the brain where it can be made into seratonin.
The problem is that vitamin B6 is used to help produce seratonin. So if you take vitamin B6 with 5-HTP, you end up with the seratonin being produced in your blood before the 5-HTP is able to cross the blood brain barrier to get into your brain where you'd want the seratonin to be produced. And in turn you just end up with elevated levels of seratonin in you blood. Which is not why we're taking the stuff in the first place. We want to increase the supplies of seratonin in our brain.
They actually state "At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money".
Does this mean that we should actually avoid B6 when pre/postloading with 5-HTP?
Anyone able to give any info to support this? Or disagree with it?

 

[BigTrancer]

This is a very interesting point you bring up. While we've usually been told that taking Vitamin C & B6 with 5-HTP is helpful (something along the lines that the vitamins help the 5-HTP to cross the blood/brain barrier or otherwise potentiate the seratonin conversion), it's important to examine where the conversion from 5-HTP to 5-HT (seratonin) takes place.

By Ward Dean MD, Will Block, and John Morgenthaler http://www.kirlian.org/life_enhancement_products/n315ht~1.htm
... In other experiments with monkeys and rats, the presence of ample amounts of B6 - even to the point of "moderate excess" - increased production of serotonin (in the brain) from 5-HTP by up to 60%. Once again, it is clear that 5-HTP raises brain serotonin levels - with or without carbidopa or benserazide, and with or without vitamin B6. But the evidence indicates that it's better to take 5-HTP without carbidopa or benserazide and with vitamin B6.

Now... another source notes as you've mentioned above:

http://www.naturalhealthconsult.com/Monographs/5-htp.html
Vitamin B6 should not be taken at the same time, although it is helpful if taken about 6 hours earlier than the 5-HTP.

(It should be noted both these references are from sites that sell both 5-HTP, and 5-HTP+B6.)
From my understanding, B6 helps turn 5-HTP into seratonin. It can accomplish this either in the brain, or in the blood. According to common sense, if B6 and 5-HTP were in your blood, liver or gut at the same time, then the decarboxylation should take place there, rather than in the brain. This is not beneficial in the sense that we're referring to.
Apparently 5-HTP takes between 6-8 hours after ingestion to begin producing seratonin in the brain. However, I'm not positive how long B6 takes to have an effect. What I'd like to know is: Would oral ingestion of B6 and 5-HTP in the same capsule effectively allow the desired time delay between B6 and 5-HTP to happen? If not, are the capsules of 5-HTP+B6+C less desirable than separate 5-HTP capsules and vitamin supplements?
BigTrancer

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Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

 

[Bandicoot]

Hmm, yes I have wondered about this too. I recently bought 5-HTP from Jomar labs for the first time, and they included a flyer saying NOT to take Vit B6 at the same time .. which worried me a bit since the brand I used previously included Vit B6 in the same capsule as the 5-HTP!

 

[Soma]

Remember, when preloading the B6 is generally used to bump the MDMA along into the brain.

 

[Shred]

*bump*
I was wondering if anyone has any new info on this topic?

 

[insomnia]

Shred: I think BigTrancer has pretty much spelled it all out for us

 

[*chaoscat*]

No he didn't insomnia!
We still need to know how long it takes for B6 to affect you. If we knew this we could time it so it starts to convert the 5htp to serotonin after the 5htp has crossed the blood-brain barrier.

 

[johnboy]

(non scientific thought follows)
OK if 5HTP needs B6 to work where will it get it from? Probably from whatever stocks of B6 your body already has. Then perhaps the B6 in the %htp caps isn't for the 5HTP, it's to re-stock the body with B6 afterwards.

 

[fairnymph]

Some blurbs to add to BT's info...

Acute administration of vitamin B6 to rats (10 mg/kg body weight) led to reduced urinary excretion of N1-methyl nicotinamide and methyl pyridone carboxamide, indicating inhibition of the oxidative metabolism of tryptophan. There was a considerable reduction in the production of 14CO2 from [ring-2-14C]tryptophan, and a significant inhibition of hepatic tryptophan oxygenase when measured in liver homogenates, together with an increase in the concentration of tryptophan in plasma. There was an increase in both the concentration of tryptophan in the brain and the uptake into the brain of peripherally administered [3H]tryptophan, accompanied by a small increase in the rate of synthesis of 5-hydroxytryptamine in the brain. It is suggested that this increase in the uptake of tryptophan into the brain following a relatively large dose of vitamin B6 may explain the beneficial action of the vitamin in some cases of depressive illness.
Bender DA, Totoe L. High doses of vitamin B6 in the rat are associated with inhibition of hepatic tryptophan metabolism and increased uptake of tryptophan into the brain. J Neurochem. 1984 Sep;43(3):733-6.

Four children were selected for a study of the effects of pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) on low serotonin levels. Oral doses of pyridoxine resulted in an appreciable increase in the serotonin content and a very large increase in the PLP content of blood in these hyperactive patients.
Bhagavan HN, Coleman M, Coursin DB. The effect of pyridoxine hydrochloride on blood serotonin and pyridoxal phosphate contents in hyperactive children. Pediatrics. 1975 Mar;55(3):437-41.
(A weird study but still somewhat relevant I think.)