+4 experiences in religious history?

[Folley]

^ I like Mormons. When the Church of the Later Day Saints came to my house I had a nice chat with them about how I've actually seen God's wonder first hand..... it was a bit hard to explain to them without telling them I was on lots of drugs, but honestly these girls who have never touched a drug in their life showed the same kind of commitment and connection to their God that I did.... to be fair, they were a lot more devoted than I, but even the Religions most people think are stupid have some GREAT points you can take away from them.


I don't think ++++'s have any place in current religions though, and I don't think that was on accident or even just because "drugs are bad, mkay".... I think it's because they don't want us to know the truth, and they know that psychedelics are the easiest way to open someone's mind, even if it is for only 9 hours!

That's why I will not practice any modern religion... I don't need to listen to some other un-enlightened dude try to scare me away from Hell, all you need to be religious is an open mind and the willingness to learn... the rest will come to you.

And of course religious experiences can't replicate a psychedelic plusfour.
But whether your experience be from drugs or your god, you feel that same thing. Just with drugs involved, you're also tripping sack.

Indeed :D

 

[any major dude]

Honestly, I would agree with that. Maybe it's just because we go into a psychedelic experience only looking for the recreational, "fun", side of the drug that we aren't as willing or able to take that insight with us after the trip is over... but it seems with psychedelics you almost need to keep dosing every few months to be able to stay in that state of mind, but with religion many people have found it easy to integrate those changes into their daily lives...

I would disagree, many people use psychedelics specifically looking for mystical or enlightening states. Therapeutic use of them is very much on the rise due to the insights they can produce, when used with that intent of course.

Now, that's not to say that a psychedelic experience can't be profoundly religious, or that your going to simply forget the life changing ideas you came up with... no, in fact my last shroom trip a good 2-3 months ago is still effecting my life greatly, I feel like I'm STILL learning from it.... I just think that, for the majority of users, a "normal" ++++ is going to be a VERY PROFOUND moment, but not a significantly life changing one.

The 2006 Johns-Hopkins redux of the good friday experiment & the 2008 follow-up showed us that the majority of people who took psilocin under those conditions still found it among the most significant moments in their lives, up there with the birth of a child & the like. Also ratings of positive personality changes (by both the subjects & their friends & family) held up after 2yrs. Of course, if one chokes down a bunch of shrooms at a kegger, this type of thing is less likely but still.

Now, if you put in the same focus and concentration and go into that experience with a mind set of someone embarking on some kind of inner spiritual journey, the chances of you having a religious and ++++ experience at the same time is greatly increased.


Psychedelics are like a cheat sheet to your brain, they will tell you what you want to know... and what could possibly be more important than your eternal soul??

Definitely agree with the first bit, though i'm currently unconvinced as to the existence of a soul

 

[Folley]

I would disagree, many people use psychedelics specifically looking for mystical or enlightening states. Therapeutic use of them is very much on the rise due to the insights they can produce, when used with that intent of course.

Oh, I do this too... I just always seem to find my way there, no matter what conditions I take the drugs under. It's like that's how I'm supposed to trip, but honestly it gets a bit unnerving to almost go into a drug experience KNOWING that your life will not be the same after it... I'd like to go back to the old days where I could just drop some L and "see colors 'n shit", well, no I wouldn't lol but I'd like to be able to still have those trips. That's why I'm getting some 2C-B, hopefully it will fill that gap.


I know the study you mentioned, and I actually really like that one. I would still agree with that though, I just think that for the most part, we forget a lot of the insights that we have when we're tripping. Probably just because a ++++ throws so much information at you in a millisecond, you can't possibly remember it all.... religious experiences can last for years at a time in the right condition, it just makes sense that they would be able to retain more of that knowledge for longer.

Definitely agree with the first bit, though i'm currently unconvinced as to the existence of a soul

Don't think of it in the religious sense if that doesn't make sense to you, think of it as the life force of a living being... what makes up a human beyond the atoms and chemicals that make up our brain... it's what separates us from the chimps who can use tools too. Hell that's what a ++++ is all about, getting out of your body and into your soul... I wish I had some other words to use other than soul, but that's the best way to describe it really...


It's that inner energy that makes us who we are... the soul, chakra, life force.. whatever you want to call it, surely you can see it in yourself? Or maybe you just think we are driven to do everything we do by design, the chemicals in our brain controlling every emotion..? That would fit in well with evolution, but I sure think we have control over ourselves.. well, as much as the Government, false religions and biased media will allow us, that is. Hell, I think we even have control over the chemicals in our brains, and using drugs is probably the laziest way of doing so

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

When I explain it to people, I always do it like this:
Do you know the difference between your brain and your mind?
Your brain is the organ. Your mind is you.

 

[stillmind]

Thanks everyone, some really fascinating and provocative ideas here. Really enjoyed reading this.

At the same time, with the exception of Biff, it doesn't seem to me that anyone has been able to come up with an example of a classic +4 in traditional religion. The examples given sound to me like +3s - immersive sensory alteration (contact with god, angels, hearing voices, etc..) - rather than the +4 samadhi-like state of indivisible interconnection with everything.

Perhaps true +4s are less prevalent in historical religious literature than I supposed.