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  • Trip Reports Moderator: Xorkoth

4-AcO-DMT (IV) - Experienced - Nothing is Permanent but Everything is Eternal

naginnudej

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
1,127
At 10:15AM, the sweet buzzing of my phone made possible a rare occurrence: a peaceful transition into a new day after a full night’s sleep. C, a close friend and experienced psychonaut, waited patiently for me on the other end while I gathered myself. C and I planned this day trip in hopes of spending some quality time together in the wilderness while under the influence of 4-AcO-DMT. Two 10mg doses were weighed on a +/-.001 scale and placed in capsules for safekeeping; I gathered the rest of my belongings and hopped on the subway. C and I rendezvoused an hour later and drove to our destination. After arriving, we ate lunch and triple checked for all necessary gear. Spirits were high and the weather was beautiful—I couldn’t have asked for more. =D

After a short trek through the woods in search of a suitable location, C and I came upon the site of choice: a beautiful bed of rocks littered with moss and other interesting fauna surrounded by a sea of endless trees. Preparation began. 4aco was acquired from a trusted source almost 6 months prior and has been stored in a cool, dry location in an airtight container. Because IV 4aco reports are a bit lacking, C and I decided to begin trials with approximately 5mgs each. Even though I am an experienced substance (ab)user, I am still a novice to the needle. Save for a single 5mg 2C-I session, my IV experience is effectively nonexistent.

T +0:00 10mg was dissolved in water and split between the two of us. Tolerance is a non-issue; it’s been a few weeks since either of us has tripped.

The effects were instantaneous—beginning in the middle of my skull, a cool wave of energy flowed down my neck and into my chest. I took a few deep breaths and allowed my perspective of the forest to follow my teacher’s directions. I scanned my surroundings as the familiar visual effects took hold of the plant life around me. Colors brightened as rich, organic texture seeped into every crevice of my visual field. Most of all, I could hear what I was seeing—auditory amplification was distinctly present. As these events unfolded, I closely studied the forest around me: it’s breathing was rhythmic and its presence powerful. And to think I almost forgot why I love 4aco so much!

After integrating these new aspects of reality into my trip, I expressed a desire to utilize a magnifying glass. C felt there was no need—everything around us was definitively more ‘crisp’ and ‘clear.’ Although I wasn’t completely satisfied, I conceded to her conviction (this becomes important later).

+0:05 C and I easily settled into our new shoes; fueled by a particularly clear and collected headspace, conversation flowed effortlessly. Following the guidance of earlier discussion, the main topic of conversation found grounding in interpersonal relationships. C related certain emotional qualities that have always been foreign to her: jealousy, hatred, greed, etc… In an attempt to better grasp and build relationships, C felt the need to ‘teach herself’ how to feel these emotions. I wasn’t a fan of the idea—in response to her stated goals, I attempted to deconstruct and trace the history of these emotions in the human experience. Is the ability to hate an inherent quality to the human race? That wasn’t an affirmation I was willing to accept.

+0:25 Following the assumption that such negative emotions are not in fact inherent to the human experience, I could not overlook the question staring me in the face: where do these emotions find base? In order to exist, negativity must stem from a preexisting emotion that gives it life. In searching for the answer, I was directed towards childhood; what does a child yearn for more than anything? For me, the only answer that makes logical and rational sense is love. As a side note, I must state that this is not the sort of love in which two entities are attracted to one another for their respective qualities; the love I am speaking of is one that is fueled by confusion, amazement, and surrender. A child does not know how to hate or be jealous until they are taught to do so—it’s an acquired taste. As a result, I told C that her apparent ‘lack’ of emotion was actually an admirable quality. She should be grateful for her inability to hold a grudge—negativity is hard work.

+0:45 As C spoke, I found myself in a state of wonder and admiration as I looked deep into her eyes, I realized how lucky I was to be able to share this experience with such an amazing individual. Gratitude filled my heart with beams of light and love.

+1:00 While I was very much enjoying the space we were in, I knew we could go comfortably further. More exploration was required. The second 10mg capsule was prepped for injection. Moments before the dose was administered, my concentration was disrupted by a question asked by C—as I began to respond, I realized that the dose had already been administered. Without warning, an intense rush of vibrations engulfed my body.

My skin felt rubbery and foreign. C’s voice was difficult to understand. I started to giggle. I turned to the trees and took deep, life-affirming breaths of air as I observed the forest. I was then witness to a variety of aesthetic qualities that I had never before experienced. As the trees vibrated at the same frequency of my body, they assumed dark, candy-like appearances. Their presence filled the world around me. As I walked closer to the nearest tree, I was compelled to sit back down—the tree’s energy was too powerful. Unreal beauty.

My attention turned to the fauna and rocks sitting before my feet. Upon examination, I became aware of how ‘big’ everything looked. My eyes had effectively become magnifying glasses. C was right. Whatever object I chose to rest my eyes upon would be ‘pulled’ from the ground in a spherical manner—imagine a half full water balloon placed on a table being pumped with water. That’s what I was seeing. I later found myself lying on the ground looking at the sky, I saw what appeared to be a translucent ‘ceiling’ adorned with shimmering geometric patterns well above the tree line. A troop of clouds danced lazily in the sky.

+1:30 After the initial shock-wave subsided, I was reminded of a different kind of beauty present in this substance: the silence of peripheral confusion and ego-chatter. C and I continued our discussions on a whole new level. A floodgate of emotion opened up as C expressed her feelings on a number of relationships wherein people are nasty to both her and people she cares about. To work through these issues, C and I were brought back to the origin of negative energies and how they affect a person’s relationship with themselves and others. Because a person’s actions are a reflection of their own limited conception of reality, C knew not to take these attacks personally—she did however find it difficult to completely detach herself from the negativity directed at her heart. After deconstructing the actions and motives of someone close to her, C was able to turn her sadness outward in hopes of helping those who are locked in negative thought patterns that prevent personal growth.

+2:15 Questions of the future and our life goals followed suit. C asked me what my plans for the future were. While many of my stated goals were relatively open-ended, it was clear that I could be doing much more to further those ambitions. This is an issue I have had for some time—instead of immediately acting on my ambitions, I assume I will follow through at a later date. C guided me through my own process as I accepted and declared to resist those temptations and be more proactive in my every day life.

+3:00-4:15 As the trip progressed, 4aco once again proved its ability to ‘fill’ all corners of my existence with a life-force energy unparalleled by any comparable substance. My very existence was radiating energies of love and self-assurance that is undoubtedly superior to any drug-induced state of confidence I have ever experienced. My mind was calm, quiet, and content, yet filled with raw ambition and drive. It was unreal. This after glow lasted into the night and the next day. I am still feeling the warmth radiating from within. Peace, love, and C. <3
 
Thanks for sharing! Very well written report.

The title has the sound of a wise, ancient aphorism. It characterizes a conviction that I share, which was also first seeded in a psychedelic state. Everything is eternal.

I hope you can embrace the renewed vigor and harness it in the pursuit of your life goals, whatever they may be.

Psychedelics can show you the path...

<3
 
Thank you :)

During the drive back I was watching C smoke a cigarette when the phrase came to me. Funny how those things work out.

i'm doing my best to break my old habits--it's not easy though. summer will hopefully bring better prospects (oops there i go doing it again :p)
 
I wasn’t a fan of the idea—in response to her stated goals, I attempted to deconstruct and trace the history of these emotions in the human experience. Is the ability to hate an inherent quality to the human race? That wasn’t an affirmation I was willing to accept.

First of all, that was a very well written report. I do have a problem with this statement though. It seems to be a pervasive idea that many hippies and psychedelic users espouse. It is naive, and I think that if people are going to take psychedelic users seriously then people who use psychedelics must do so in a responsible manner.

Hate and fear are exteremely useful in evolutionary terms. Parts of the brain related to fear and hate, such as the amygdala, are well conserved across species. This is not something that is going away, as it hardwired into our brains. It is almost impossible for a person not to feel these things. Behaviors that are related to hate might be learned, but the emotion itself is not something you can make disappear because you took some LSD. More importantly, people who don't take drugs are going to think that you are completely irrational by speaking this way. Drugs may temporarily disrupt your ability to feel hate, and you may even carry this with you after the trip, but it is simply illogical to assume you can just teach peace and love and expect it to stick.

I think that this is one of the main reasons the hippie movement failed, they simply could not ground themselves in realistic theories that made sense without drugs. Sorry to kind of derail this, I just had to get that off my chest.
 
Great post :)

Before we get into semantics, let's be clear: we know very little about human cognition--theories regarding the relationship between the human conscious and brain function are just that: theories.

Despite that side note, from what I understand about the amygdala, it is the source of fear. Hatred on the other hand, is an indirect result of brain function induced by fear. The seed of fear must be sown for hatred to grow. If this is the case, then to create hatred, humans need an external force to activate these feelings. If the sentiment cannot exist on its own, it is not an inherent quality. No? I might have missed the mark--if so, lmk.

And while drugs temporarily 'disrupt' your ability to feel hate, I'd venture to say the 'drug' of fear disrupts the ability to love in a similar way. The line between the two is difficult to see sometimes. I also don't want to just 'teach' peace and love and hope it sticks. I want everyone to experience it. Knowledge is based in belief, experience, and understanding. You can't have knowledge without all three.

Once you see something you can't go back and forget what you saw; it's forever imprinted in your brain. I'm confident that love will prove to be a more powerful asset than hatred in the long run.
 
Great post :)

Before we get into semantics, let's be clear: we know very little about human cognition--theories regarding the relationship between the human conscious and brain function are just that: theories.

Despite that side note, from what I understand about the amygdala, it is the source of fear. Hatred on the other hand, is an indirect result of brain function induced by fear. The seed of fear must be sown for hatred to grow. If this is the case, then to create hatred, humans need an external force to activate these feelings. If the sentiment cannot exist on its own, it is not an inherent quality. No? I might have missed the mark--if so, lmk.

And while drugs temporarily 'disrupt' your ability to feel hate, I'd venture to say the 'drug' of fear disrupts the ability to love in a similar way. The line between the two is difficult to see sometimes. I also don't want to just 'teach' peace and love and hope it sticks. I want everyone to experience it. Knowledge is based in belief, experience, and understanding. You can't have knowledge without all three.

Once you see something you can't go back and forget what you saw; it's forever imprinted in your brain. I'm confident that love will prove to be a more powerful asset than hatred in the long run.

It is true that we still have a lot to learn about the brain, but it has been well established that the more primitive parts of the brain have been with us longer and evolved long before the higher cognitive functions were able to. The amygdala sits between the autonomic center of the brain (brainstem) and the higher parts of the brain such as the limbic system. This suggests that fear followed closely on the heels of such critical functions as heart rate and blood pressure. Again, this makes sense, since animals were more likely to survive if their first response to stimuli was to withdraw themselves from the situation. In more primitive animals, ones that could not reason their way out of a situation, the flight (in fight or flight) response was critical to survival. Fight or flight is considered a basic response because it involves fear and hate, basic components of survival.

The thing is, since the amygdala is so important, and such a central and well connected part of the brain, it can easily be activated. It is just unrealistic to think that it won't be activated plenty of times during the span of an organism's life. We can try to teach behaviors that support love and peace, but we cannot hope to eliminate hate completely. There are just too many years of evolution to fight against. It is only recently that not having hate would actually be an evolutionary advantage. It isn't all apparent that it will even remain a selective advantage, so that trait might not even be positively selected for.

In conclusion, I agree that love is a more powerful asset in our current communities. I disagree that fear and hate are going anywhere, and I think statements that suggest we can just end hate and fear completely are completely naive. We must learn to live with it and minimize the damage. You have to remember, there is a large segment of the population (the majority actually) that will never touch psychedelics. To them, this sounds like burnt out hippie talk. No offense, I just feel that as psychedelic users we can do better. We can use these experiences to illuminate interesting parts of the psyche and cognitive process, but we can't use them to generate half cocked utopian theories that will never become more than the banter between two dudes tripping balls. No matter how well intentioned the banter is.
 
Enlitx, those are some interesting ideas you have there. %)

After going through your post, I'm going to concede to the following suggestion: the effective inseparability of fear and hate in times of distress affirms these emotions as inherent qualities of the human experience.

I believe there may have been some miss-communication stemming from a conception of my arguments that allude to a desire to eliminate hatred entirely--this is not a conviction I stand by. While I may not have explored the subject from a positive perspective during the TR, I believe that hate plays a vital role in the duality of human emotion. A suitable understanding of a particular emotion can only exist when a counterpart is used to quantify and analyze state-specific qualities.

From the response you presented, one could potentially extrapolate a conception of behavioral response in humans that can be narrowed down to two options: one for war and one for peace. It is here that I believe the duality of human emotion is established in love and hate. In retrospect, my [completely] unfounded bias in favor of love proved to be detrimental to my perception of human emotion. Thanks for bringing that to my attention :)

I am however a bit disappointed by the assumption-fueled conclusion of your post. Widespread administration of any psychedelic is the LAST thing on my mind. Psychedelics are reserved for those individuals who are willing and prepared. When I stated that I wanted everyone to experience love, I purposefully did not mention any substances in hopes of avoiding this exact conversation :\

Then you start on about 'hippie talk.' Is hippie talk another way to express positive reinforcement while promoting nonviolence and similar concepts? I can't imagine that hippies are the only ones in the world who share these sentiments. Regardless, it's apparent that you are either bored and/or unimpressed by the concepts presented by my TR and 'burnt out hippies' who share similar sentiments. If that's the case then I'm sorry for your loss--the human race has much to learn from these concepts. I genuinely believe that certain advancements in human understanding rely heavily on just this sort of discussion.

At this point you probably want to bring back the been-there-done-that argument. That's not gonna fly: even though similar discussions may have occurred in the past, we live in a reality where people might choose to interpret and digest these ideas in newfound ways. Try and imagine this thought processes as form of philosophical inquiry: would you discount Plato's Republic just because it presents a 'cocked utopian' theory?

And even if a theory or set of beliefs might not have an immediately apparent practical use for you, it does not give you the right to discount the value others derive via analysis, discussion, reflection, etc... For me, it's pretty clear that your attempt at devaluing this sort of inquiry really doesn't have any merit. This 'banter' happens to be inextricably linked to an important aspect of my developing perspectives on the human psyche that blur the line between psychology and philosophy. I want to make a difference and this is one of the ways I know how. If you're not on board then I wish you luck with whatever ideas you bring to the table.

<3
 
Enlitx, those are some interesting ideas you have there. %)

After going through your post, I'm going to concede to the following suggestion: the effective inseparability of fear and hate in times of distress affirms these emotions as inherent qualities of the human experience.

I believe there may have been some miss-communication stemming from a conception of my arguments that allude to a desire to eliminate hatred entirely--this is not a conviction I stand by. While I may not have explored the subject from a positive perspective during the TR, I believe that hate plays a vital role in the duality of human emotion. A suitable understanding of a particular emotion can only exist when a counterpart is used to quantify and analyze state-specific qualities.

From the response you presented, one could potentially extrapolate a conception of behavioral response in humans that can be narrowed down to two options: one for war and one for peace. It is here that I believe the duality of human emotion is established in love and hate. In retrospect, my [completely] unfounded bias in favor of love proved to be detrimental to my perception of human emotion. Thanks for bringing that to my attention :)

Maybe I misread your intent, but you stated that you were not willing to accept that the ability to hate is an inherent quality in the human race. I simply pointed out my disagreement, in so many words.

I am however a bit disappointed by the assumption-fueled conclusion of your post. Widespread administration of any psychedelic is the LAST thing on my mind. Psychedelics are reserved for those individuals who are willing and prepared. When I stated that I wanted everyone to experience love, I purposefully did not mention any substances in hopes of avoiding this exact conversation :\

I think you misread what I was saying. I was saying that since most people haven't used psychedelics, they wouldn't understand your sentiments as anything profound unless they were constructed in a clear and convincing manner. I never assumed that you wanted everyone to take psychedelics, sorry for the apparent confusion.

Then you start on about 'hippie talk.' Is hippie talk another way to express positive reinforcement while promoting nonviolence and similar concepts? I can't imagine that hippies are the only ones in the world who share these sentiments. Regardless, it's apparent that you are either bored and/or unimpressed by the concepts presented by my TR and 'burnt out hippies' who share similar sentiments. If that's the case then I'm sorry for your loss--the human race has much to learn from these concepts. I genuinely believe that certain advancements in human understanding rely heavily on just this sort of discussion.

I want to be clear, I don't consider you a burnt out hippie. I was stating that many people view psychedelic users as burnt out hippies once they start in on the whole love and peace bit. It is something they have heard before, time and time again. Since I have used psychedelics, I can understand your insights into how we might better ourselves through the promotion of love instead of hate. On the other hand, I have not used psychedelics in a long time, and I find that many of these ideas I had on psychedelics weren't profound at all. Promoting love isn't a novel idea, it has been around forever. Other people, myself included, just want something that has a real impact. The idea may have been novel and profound to you while intoxicated, but it simply does not register as anything exceptional to me. That isn't to be mean, I just think that if you want to actually make progress on this front you would have to construct an actual social policy that could be enacted. This would require a lot of time and effort.

At this point you probably want to bring back the been-there-done-that argument. That's not gonna fly: even though similar discussions may have occurred in the past, we live in a reality where people might choose to interpret and digest these ideas in newfound ways. Try and imagine this thought processes as form of philosophical inquiry: would you discount Plato's Republic just because it presents a 'cocked utopian' theory?

And even if a theory or set of beliefs might not have an immediately apparent practical use for you, it does not give you the right to discount the value others derive via analysis, discussion, reflection, etc... For me, it's pretty clear that your attempt at devaluing this sort of inquiry really doesn't have any merit. This 'banter' happens to be inextricably linked to an important aspect of my developing perspectives on the human psyche that blur the line between psychology and philosophy. I want to make a difference and this is one of the ways I know how. If you're not on board then I wish you luck with whatever ideas you bring to the table.

<3

Well, this is exactly my point though. In the 60's there were thousands of people coming to the same conclusion as you, but they did little to further the human race. Their ideas had little value since they amounted to little more than a desire for love. For these thoughts to have merit as something more than a half cocked utopian dream, there needs to be serious inquiry. If you want to know how the brain works regarding love, and how you could maximize this feeling, you need to get into neurology so that you can study it seriously. If you want to promote peace among humans, you need to develop social programs that can be implemented, or enact change through dissemination of information.

My viewpoint on the whole issue is that while psychedelics can provide a new perspective on old issues, this new perspective is only useful as a spark of motivation for serious and sober dedication. Thousands of people are working on the same idea as you, but they obtain a lot of schooling and conduct a lot of research to answer the question. Maybe you are attending a university, if so, that would be the kind of concrete steps that need to be taken. I just find it a little frustrating that psychedelic users can't recognize that people have been reaching the same conclusions about peace and love for the last fifty years, but it amounts to nothing if it is not expounded upon with serious effort. I think that psychedelic users believe that their revelations about peace are much more profound than they really are, and this stems from their state of intoxication. Kind of like a coke head thinks everything he says is uber interesting while everyone around wishes he would just shut up.

Again, this is not to attack you, I think you did a great job of writing the report and summing up your feelings. You are clearly intelligent and capable of gaining something from the experience. I guess I am writing this as an indictment of the psychedelic community at large, it is just something I needed to say.
 
Thanks for the write up. It'd be nice if you could edit your title to include "IV" somewhere as a marker for future searches. IV 4-AcO is still on my to do list, and I'm always interested to read about the differences between this ROA and others. I think you'll need more than 5 mg at a time to really milk the method for advantages over easier IM administration. I've read heavier IV doses take on the character of smoked DMT, with fully immersing visions.
 
Great report, very well written. I love the title. Im glad that you share my love for 4aco :) This makes me want to take it in a forest then next time I take it
 
Don't worry, I didn't take anything personally--in fact, I try my best not to take anything personally, ever. I simply wanted to ensure that both sides of the argument were well-represented. :D

I don't understand why you are so caught up in this old-news conversation. Religion is pretty old news--people still listen. Similarly, I believe that the ideas presented by psychedelics are timeless--their value isn't quantifiable and their teachings apply to anyone who wishes to believe. You also expressed concern over their profundity; because that sort of judgment is subjective, I have no right to tell you otherwise. Coupled with the fact that you put meaning in the teaching, not the other way around, making conjectures about a collection of experiences other than your own is dangerous territory.

Try not to take all the teachings at face-value either; the teachings can be interpreted in countless ways. Just recently I revisited my first trip report and I was able to gain insight into my life that I hadn't immediately following the occurrence. Even if you choose not to reexamine the teachings, I implore you not to come to the experience/discussion with any bias if you are willing to be persuaded.

As my psychedelic experience matures, I have become more comfortable with the idea that a psychedelic journey is chiefly guided by the end-user, not the substance itself. If you follow this formula, the lessons learned by an end user can only go as far as the user allows themselves. If the user(s) experiencing the drug limits (consciously or not) their capacity to love, their teacher will continue to show them love (or potentially deprive them of it in a bad trip) until action is taken to understand and integrate love in all facets of life.

Let me use an analogy to explain myself: you, the end user, is a small 6ft deep pool. LSD is a professional diver expected to perform amazing feats despite the obvious need for a deeper pool. It's clear LSD can't perform at full capacity, but it does the best it can with the smaller pool. As L leaves, he gives the pool owner the card to a company that would provide all the materials necessary to convert his pool minus the labor. The owner would have to do the heavy lifting.

The owner can make any choice--if he chooses to bust-ass and expand the pool, L returns and blows away the crowd. This time he gives you the card to a man who will give you the materials necessary to build a stadium. You get the idea...

What I'm trying to say is that perhaps you hear the same message again and again because you refuse to meaningfully integrate the original teachings into your life. Novelty and lack of profundity aside, you must find some merit in their teachings otherwise you wouldn't be here. Even if the teachings are 'obvious' or can be found via other means, the fact remains that myself and others find merit in what these substances have to offer and how they choose to deliver their message.

I think that psychedelic users believe that their revelations about peace are much more profound than they really are, and this stems from their state of intoxication.
Or perhaps your sober state is so grounded in its biases and conception of reality that it doesn't allow you to see how truly meaningful the teaching really is.

It wasn't until I dropped L for the first time that I realized what it meant to live 'in the moment' without attachment to the past or future. This event gave life to my spiritual journey while sparking interest in aspects of human consciousness that are now the a large focus of my academic career. I have both myself and psychedelic exploration to thank for that.

My viewpoint on the whole issue is that while psychedelics can provide a new perspective on old issues, this new perspective is only useful as a spark of motivation for serious and sober dedication. Thousands of people are working on the same idea as you, but they obtain a lot of schooling and conduct a lot of research to answer the question. Maybe you are attending a university, if so, that would be the kind of concrete steps that need to be taken. I just find it a little frustrating that psychedelic users can't recognize that people have been reaching the same conclusions about peace and love for the last fifty years, but it amounts to nothing if it is not expounded upon with serious effort.

So is it the lack of profundity in the teaching or the lack of action after the fact that you find most troublesome? Perhaps both?

For sake of conversation, take a look at this thread:http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=496332 In one of the introduction questions you can replace 'veganism, raw foods, etc...' with psychedelics. I definitely couldn't say that on the application ;) Obviously there are some changes I will make as a result of our earlier conversations, but the fact remains that I intend to follow this through and hopefully make a difference where it counts. I'm open to grad school, writing a book, researching the mind, and countless others--wherever I end up I will use the full range of my skills and knowledge to make a difference.

Either way, from what I have seen there are a growing number of psychedelic enthusiasts who are situating their futures in such a manner that they have the potential to directly impact social policy. Up to this point, many of their actions have been guided psychedelics. Who's to say they are going to stop now? Hopefully it's a new trend.

I guess I am writing this as an indictment of the psychedelic community at large, it is just something I needed to say.
Likewise, I am responding as a member of the psychedelic community who refutes your claims :p

Thanks for the write up. It'd be nice if you could edit your title to include "IV" somewhere as a marker for future searches. IV 4-AcO is still on my to do list, and I'm always interested to read about the differences between this ROA and others. I think you'll need more than 5 mg at a time to really milk the method for advantages over easier IM administration. I've read heavier IV doses take on the character of smoked DMT, with fully immersing visions.

I'm absolutely willing to try this. What doses did you have in mind? I remember reading reports of 30mg IV sending people into religious meltdown...
 
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^I'd probably start with 15 or 20 mg if I was looking for a DMT-like experience from IV 4-AcO. I don't recall exactly, but I think after awhile IV calms down to about the level the same dose IM would've taken you. That makes sense, as both have 100 percent bioavailability. I just don't remember exactly how long it takes. I advise searching the big and dandy thread to find out before you do it - I think the info is in there somewhere. If you've smoked DMT before you should be fine, as even though it's longer the 4-AcO experience is supposed to be less forceful.
 
Great report, man. :) I really enjoyed it, and the subsequent discussion.

I've put IV into the title also.
 
^I'd probably start with 15 or 20 mg if I was looking for a DMT-like experience from IV 4-AcO. I don't recall exactly, but I think after awhile IV calms down to about the level the same dose IM would've taken you. That makes sense, as both have 100 percent bioavailability. I just don't remember exactly how long it takes. I advise searching the big and dandy thread to find out before you do it - I think the info is in there somewhere. If you've smoked DMT before you should be fine, as even though it's longer the 4-AcO experience is supposed to be less forceful.
Fair enough. When the opportunity presents itself this summer I will be sure to follow through with the undertaking. I'll let you know how it goes :)
Great report, man. :) I really enjoyed it, and the subsequent discussion.

I've put IV into the title also.

Thanks Z <3
 
naginnudej, I would love to continue our discussion, but I really don't want to derail your very good report with our debate about psychedelics in general. If you want to continue, I would like to make a new thread incorporating our discussion thus far. What forum do you think it would work best in? If you are willing to continue, please let me know and I will do so.

On a separate note, props to you for being able to I.V. while high on such a chemical. I couldn't hit my own veins while sober, hydrated, and tied off after a work out.
 
Understood. I'll be writing another trip report in the next day or so. When that's finished if any other interesting conversations arise we should start a thread for them.
 
excellent report...your posts always give me things to think about which i like a lot.
and it also got some good discussion going which is always nice


i wonder what some of the OTHER 4-acos would be like IV? anyone tried MET or DET? by the way, do ACO's burn at the injection site? and which versions of 4-aco's are water soluble...all of them (or just the salt or just the fumerate)
-----

reaction to rest of thread:

i dont know why everyone is always so worried that psychedelic people are sounding like burnouts or psuedo-scientists or crazy people

some of the most brilliant, well spoken people i know are psych people....


just because you try to live love instead of hate doesnt mean you are a burnout...it just means you try to live that way. and if you truly act with love people will not resent you for it. i certainly find that to be true in my life.

the more love i put out, the more sucessful i am in my relationships, in work, in learning, etc....the more anger i mess around with, the more resentment i let buid etc, the more that destructive things happen.... i spent an hour on the subway today just realizing how much i love the people in nyc... looking at every single person on that train and thinking about how unique they are and how much they have to offer the world.

hatred can be fun to PLAY with as a tool. but i am not the only person who thinks that people who hate each other can learn a lot from taking mdma together

now there are plenty of things i SAY i hate....asparagus, diet coke, mushrooms in food, etc....but i dont hold it against the object..i dont actually hate the thing, i just make a big show of not having a preference for it. and i dont try to love people because of ethics or morality. i just do it because it makes sense. because why wouldnt i love everyone? and i might detest someones actions. i've gotten mugged, etc. but i try to think about where that person is coming from and what led them to mugging people.


and just because something is part of our brains does not mean we cant try to live as best we can. do you feel like you are talking to a burnout when you encounter monks that teach compassion? do you feel that soup kitchen workers are burnouts?
 
Very well told story. I admire the kind of relationship you and C seem to have.

The conversational subject reminds me a lot of my best, most exciting trips overall, and the appreciation of scenery is reminiscent of my own experiences with 4-AcO-DMT, which is a splendid material indeed.

Fascinating that as little as 5-10 mg could give such an effect. What kind of oral dosages would be equivalent? To me this seems like something I would get from no less than 12 mg orally, but with perhaps a punchier edge?
 
i wonder what some of the OTHER 4-acos would be like IV? anyone tried MET or DET? by the way, do ACO's burn at the injection site? and which versions of 4-aco's are water soluble...all of them (or just the salt or just the fumerate)

While I can't speak for any of the other 4 substituted tryptamines, there wasn't any noticeable burn or irritation with this substance.

hatred can be fun to PLAY with as a tool. but i am not the only person who thinks that people who hate each other can learn a lot from taking mdma together

Can you give an example of this? I think I know what you're getting at but I'm not quite sure. Interesting stuff.

but with perhaps a punchier edge?

That kind of sums it up. I've taken doses <=25mg and have never had the 8o factor experienced after IV admin. Mind you, the O&CEVs of oral doses are very beautiful but nothing compared to IV.

On one occasion I mixed LSD and 4acodmt and experienced severe nystagmus. With my eyes open, reality literally MELTED away. Some of the wildest visuals I have ever seen.
 
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