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24 hours ago go?

Psilocinman

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Jan 21, 2014
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4
So, I was wondering if it would be possible for someone to sustain a DMT, 4-Aco-DMT, 4-Ho-DMT, ect... through the use of harmine. If an amine(DMT in this instance) is taken with an moai, then will the dmt be unable to be broken down while the harmine is in effect? If this is so, would it be possible to sustain a heavy huasca trip by redosing the harmine at correct points in time, and would anybody happen to know what a good redosing schedule should be for sustaining a trip 24hrs+?
 
This would not likely work. Harmine would help bypass the first pass metabolism in your gut, but would not prevent the ultimate metabolism once it is in your bloodstream. I doubt redosing harmine would lengthen the tryptamine used with it. Harmine has an effect on its own too, so you would likely still feel something for a prolonged time in this way, but it would mainly be just the effects of the harmine.

Also, harmine tends to alter the nature of orally active tryptamines beyond just increasing absorption. This is rather unpredictable, so if you choose to try such combinations start at extremely low doses first and work your way up from there. Also make sure to research the compounds well, as mao inhibitors can have very dangerous (even fatal) interactions with some other drugs, supplements, and even some foods. Harmine may be a bit more forgiving than some others, but it's still important anyways.
 
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So how long does harmine last, and at which points in time would be optimal for redosing dmt. Well both actually.
 
The maoi does not counter the effects of tolerance, perhaps one redose to maintain effects but after that your effects would undoubtedly begin to diminish due to tolerance
 
A quick google search yielded the elimination half life of harmine to be 1-3 hours, however, if you are talking about some form of extract from syrian rue, it will also contain haramaline and perhaps other things as well (I am certainly no expert). Perhaps someone more familiar with the effects and duration of such things can answer your question better.
 
Apparently ayahuasca sessions can be quite long with multiple redoses. So if that works, why wouldn't this work? They are basically the same thing - only ayahuasca brews contain the extra gunk purified alkaloids do not. The gunk may contain secondary alkaloids or even just competitive metabolic substrates.
There may be a refractory period after vaporizing DMT (or not, even), but generally speaking it seems harmala alkaloids and DMT do not really show as much tolerance effects as a lot of other psychedelics.
There are some things to look out for with harmala but most bad foods will give you the worst headache ever or hypertension, however some drugs like MDMA can indeed kill you. I trust if you are using ayahuasca / pharmahuasca you know what I am talking about otherwise I don't understand what your business is asking questions about very lenghty trips like this... in that case read up properly and plunder erowid and our archives.

It seems to me oral DMT is a wonder to behold and plenty long enough normally, but I imagine it can also be recreational and/or worth extending. Takes all sorts I suppose. I don't have nearly the issue with it Phaxius has but you might wanna double check the DMT nexus on super lengthy DMT trips.

Also, please wake me up... before you, you know, go go.
 
Well, overall I don't have a problem with the concept per se. There have been quite a few that have partaken of this sort of combination, especially with dmt. It can be quite a beautiful experience indeed. It's a bit less known what combining harmine with other tryptamines may yield. That was actually the main point of caution there. I kind of figured for the op to ask such a question in the first place denotes at very least some research had been done or that there is already some experience with such things to some extent. Mostly threw the maoi warning in there for gp. Sounds like the lengthening of ayahuasca sessions by redosing is right in line with the concept of the question. Interesting stuff :)
 
Alright, helpful criticism in my opinion - thanks
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I think I read that harmine and harmaline are a bit different and one of them imposes quite a strong loaded feeling while the other one is - I'm told - vastly superior. Not sure which is which, harmine might be the lesser one?
 
There may be a refractory period after vaporizing DMT (or not, even), but generally speaking it seems harmala alkaloids and DMT do not really show as much tolerance effects as a lot of other psychedelics.

yep, fully agree wit you on this. Iv found DMT doesn't have a tolerance build up at all. It even seems to get more potent when taking one vaporised dose as soon as you come back from another imo.
So i reckon you could keep re-dosing and re-dosing until you've had enough, when smoked anyway.
orally dosing again and again would be gross, but probably do able if the maoi was still effective after however many doses.
 
I have tried low doses of MAOIs on several occasions, 20-50mg of Harmine HCl and Syrian Rue extract with vaporized DMT and although they increased DMTs potency slightly the duration was not extended by much, although the MAOI continues its own more subtle effects for a time after the DMT.

Separately,
It... seems to get more potent when taking one vaporised dose as soon as you come back from another imo.
This is my experience too, vaporizing 30mg and following up with another 30mg ten minutes later. The second dose is always breakthrough for me. There is definitely no tolerance in the very short term and in the longer term there seems to be no tolerance either. %)
 
Apparently ayahuasca sessions can be quite long with multiple redoses.

I'm not sure that's extending the trip in the sense that a westerner would understand it tho. You might extend it in some sense - a lot of ayahuasca tribes use very low DMT doses anyway so they arn't going for the DMT component.

I don't think your brain can constantly keep tripping even if there is DMT available to it. Eventually the effect wears down to zero no matter how much DMT you have floating round.

I've found there's a tolerance effect to oral DMT - taking oral DMT one week and taking it 2 or even 4 weeks later there's a massive drop off in how explosive the psychedelic effects are. I know there's reports of tribes who "trip for 40 days straight" but I think that's a misunderstanding between westerners who don't understand tribes often use ayahuasca simply to get rid of intestinal worms.
 
Yeah but you can sustain say a Bromo-Dragonfly trip for about 24 hours can't you? OTOH it seems other superpotent ones like NBOMe's produce a form of acute tolerance (tachyphylaxis). It doesn't seem like you can just assume that some psychedelic will have a certain tendency to produce tolerance and I don't think our preconceptions about tolerance are helpful here. As I understand it psychedelics are not all created equal and for example mescaline has an unusual manner of action. I always considered the lack of tolerance from vaped DMT to be at least partially due to the overwhelming nature of blasting the brain with DMT and disabling it being cleaned up. Then again oral DMT is not like a sneak attack and how I imagine that is not that scientific...

Either way I never said or implied that one could just go on and trip on DMT indefinitely as long as you keep eating DMT and MAOIs. But I am not sure we have the reasons to reject that possibility as unlikely.
And even if there is some tolerance, if the TS is dead set on tripping on oral DMT for 24 hours the dose can always be upped to compensate.
 
It doesn't really seem too far fetched to make this work by redosing both dmt and haramalas, but it's hard to say what doses to take and how to time it. DMT does seem rather unique when it comes to tolerance, perhaps since the body produces small amounts of it? If dmt has some purpose as a neurotransmitter, perhaps the body is more vigilant in regards to tolerance build-up. Could you imagine if serotonin caused a rapid build of tolerance in the same way as other tryptamines? Endogenous production could not keep up with the ever increasing demand for it in our system. Granted, this is not the same thing since we are talking about introducing incredibly large amounts of dmt into the system compared to what would normally be present. The best way to find out would be to try redosing multiple times at the same dose to see if there are diminished effects. One word of caution there is that haramalas may be neurotoxic at really high doses, and it's hard to say if there would be accumulation in the system from redosing too soon. Most likely if it did accumulate it would make one feel physically ill to the point of not wanting to continue the experiment long before risk of neurotoxicity, but this is just speculation.

One thing to note too is that tolerance to haramalas generally does not build up fast enough to have to up the dose for them on this type of journey, and I suspect that redosing at the right time would require only about 50-75% of the original dose to effectively inhibit mao-a. For example, if one was to take 200mg haramalas (eg, purified syrian rue alkaloids), wait 45 minutes, then take 60mg dmt and wait until just after the peak to redose 100-150mg haramalas, then another 45 minutes or so later take another 60mg dmt, etc...No clue if this would work, but if repeated redosing of haramalas causes a progressive increase in body load then perhaps it would be the way to go. Anyways, lots of speculation overall. Kind of interested in testing this now, but have little time or resources to do so at the moment.
 
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And even if there is some tolerance, if the TS is dead set on tripping on oral DMT for 24 hours the dose can always be upped to compensate.

Do the psychedelic effects keep working with a repeated dose tho? I've tried redosing with oral DMT and it hasn't worked, you feel some minor physical effects but it doesn't take you back to anything psychedelic. Once the psychedelic effects have gone they're gone for good at least for a few days.
 
One word of caution there is that haramalas may be neurotoxic at really high doses, and it's hard to say if there would be accumulation in the system from redosing too soon.

I don't think you need to redose the MAOI, as far as I'm aware moclobemide inhibits for 12-24 hours and I imagine harmine does too. I don't think the MAOI wears off in a couple of hours.

then take 60mg dmt and wait until just after the peak to redose 100-150mg haramalas, then another 45 minutes or so later take another 60mg dmt,


Depends what you mean by work, when I redosed DMT orally I felt something physical but it didn't bring back any psychedelic effects.
 
Harmine has an elimination half life of 1-3 hours in humans (perhaps, not a great source for this info...wiki -.- ), though most data I can find on maoi activity is based off injection in rats. One source says "5HT was rapidly elevated 10 minutes after injection(ip) of harmaline, maximal concentration around 200 minutes and strong MAO inhibition was present for 2-3 hours." (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/ayahuasca_apa/aya_sec1_rodentmetabolism.shtml)

Not sure about harmaline in this regard either, and tetrahydroharmine is purported not to have any maoi activity at any dose.

Managed to find full text for an article regarding peak plasma levels of dmt and haramala alkaloids after oral ingestion of ayahuasca: http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/6/492.full.pdf

The chart at the bottom shows peak plasma for harmine around 1 hour, with dmt around 1.6 hours. As the dmt starts to decline (about 2h) the harmine plasma level is at about 80% of its peak. By 3 hours the harmine level is at about 50% of its peak, and by the time the dmt level is back to baseline there is only around 8% of harmine compared to the peak level. So yeah, depending on your original dose of harmine, it may be necessary to redose at some point or it's not likely to inhibit mao-a enough to let the dmt pass. I am currently looking around for information on how the plasma level relates to maoi activity for harmine, but in the meantime here's another article of interest on this topic:
http://www.biopark.org/peru/ayahuasca_scientific.html
 
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