• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

2016 American Presidential Campaign

Status
Not open for further replies.
^ How much we have in common and how sadly you are misguided in a select few things, and how likely you would say the exact same thing of me … from whence my support of the idea[l] of a red–green–brown [even maybe admitting the libertarians] revolutionary alliance to take out the evil fuckers who are in charge, and then, only then, duke it out amongst ourselves.
 
Last edited:
No, the EC (as I know you know) is made up of electors from each state. The EC has always voted the way their states popular vote tells them to vote. Therefor, the EC has never elected anyone against the popular vote (factored for all 50 states and DC). You know that silly man.

You can't prove that the undead dinosaur zombies *aren't* participating in the US election and voting Republican.

Therefore, the undead dinosaur zombies rigging the vote must exist.

Also, the EC has gone against the popular vote multiple times.
 
The popular vote as a % of votes cast is irrelevant with respect to the presidential election, and this is precisely how it was intended to be (in fact, it was originally intended to be so for senators, as well, which might have been a good idea to keep.) This is a cornerstone of the American political system. We talk about "democracy" and "republicanism," and these are now terms of our two major political parties, obviously, but they are ideologies with differences, the republican ideology (i.e. the ideology that government should be res publica, a "thing of the public" or a "public thing," perhaps better a "public matter.") isn't exactly the same as the democratic ideology (that the government should be of the demos, the people.) You would be surprised to here how "democracy" was often disparaged in American history, this not said in opposition to government "of, for, by, etc," but rather in it's promotion.

A radical democratic system would have the public voting on every issue of substance. Obviously, this is impossible. It's seen in the small scale in ballot refrenda (which often extend to a ridiculous extent in places like California), some of which have actually proved quite politically problematic, seen from either the Left, or the Right. Direct-democracy was the nominal form of government of the SPLAG (Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, an Arabic neologism by Qaddafi to describe his philosophy which included soviyet (small S, referring to the Leninist ideal, not the USSR itslf) type "people's councils" and at least nominal direct democracy, it's quite hard to conceptualize the actual form of government of Libya in American political terms, but neither democracy nor dictatorship are correct, perhaps a form of "corporatism" in the Musollinean sense, but anyway, I digress.)

Direct democracy in the U.S. has it's antecedents in the old New England town meeting, a rather quaint form of government that still actually exists on the municipal level of some towns in that part of the country. It worked there because the population were small, homogenous, and the government was minimalistic. It would be absolutely unworkable for the U.S., who's government is so sprawlingly complex that factions within it compete with others and elected officials often hold only nominal power, with their staffers and agency bureaucrats and proconsul-like military officers and private companies contracted for various tasks and a hundred other sons of bitches actually run things. So we can put that right off the table.

The U.S. being large, and heterogeneous in geographic, economic, identitarian, and any other number of ways, direct-democracy is an absurd notion; a majority or just as likely a coalition of minorities will simply seize power and do what they like. Fortunately, we don't live in exactly that world, although there are ways in which we lean uncomfortably that way. Ideological republicanism (again, not meaning the Republican Party) builds a hedge around this in various ways, with the rather-outmoded triune "balance of power," which is essentially dead, we're ruled by judges and bureaucrats, basically, rather than Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches, the Bureaucracy and the Military at the very least make for five branches of government, the intelligence apparatus a constantly infighting sixth and the C.I.A. perhaps it's own, making some set of the most powerful private corporations the eighth, at least, but really, the bureaucrats, the judges, and the professional political operatives rule the country.

They are, of course, influenced by elections, but not entirely run by them, which is good (electing generals to fight wars, for instance, would be absurd; electing judges, a common practice in many state and local jurisdictions, is almost entirely unknown outside the U.S.) The most dangerous, by far, is a life-tenured political judiciary and an unelected and largely unaccountable bureaucracy, unaccountable that is except to the truly dedicated investigative journalist with a lot of research and a lot of clout, which would mean that he is probably tethered to an organ of mainline propaganda like the New York Times, which does of course now and again post an exposé of one or another government or corporate scandal, quite often, though, doing so after some political aim, often one that's hard to understand.

But as for the elected officials? Most of them are, indeed, patsies, but we have the electoral college in place for very good reason, for prevention against domination by urban élites (a concern in U.S. politics at least as old as Jackson) and population centers which they control, or which operate according to their own interests; most people in L.A. or Manhattan would rather have a cheaper iPhone and many people in Michigan or Pennsylvania or upstate New York would very much like to work in an iPhone factory earning a decent wage, even if that meant that the person of average means were left to contend with a mere generation-or-two behind hip iPhone. Huge swaths of less well-off urban populations are ignorant, poor, and easily ensnared by promises of panem et circenses, while the urban and suburban bourgeoisie has their guilt played upon by the same skilled propagandists to preoccupy themselves with promises of "social justice" and identity politics. These examples, while being oversimplifications of course, show us something of the development of the neoliberal economic world order on the one hand, and the growth and explosion of a dysfunctional welfare state, it's subsequent disassembly and reassembly into more and more dysfunctional systems in the name of "progress," and so on, are all dysfunctions inherent in large, heterogenous democracies in which there are a number of zero-sum games being played.

It's this bad with the Electoral College. Now imagine it without. The large population centers would rule the country. Everyone else would have no voice; flyover-staters would be, basically, serfs, subject to every bizarre, corrupt, or just plain stupid whim of their urban, high-density overlords, and given choices of ignominious dependence on the state, being lucky enough to be a serf producing for those overlords, or to be a part of the civil-service apparatus, or to be a criminal. This is all very reminiscent of pre-revolutionary Russia or Germany, in a way.

The introduction of this level of democracy in America would be, quite literally, the end of any semblance of democracy in America as it is understood, and certainly the end of the American Republic.

TBH, don't even bother to read anything I've just posted.

Study Roman history. Read Plato
(Aristocracy → Timocracy → Oligarchy → Democracy → Tyranny.) It's all there.

Advanced readers, go on to the federalist papers.

Genuinely intellectual readers, continue thenceforth to the 19th-21st centuries, where ideologies and totalitarianism come front and center.

Truly brave readers, let the scales fall from your eyes and check out what Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc. were on about, various realist perspectives on them, rather than the vitriol and propaganda; they were all, along with FDR and Churchill and everyone else, extraordinarily wicked men, but sometimes it takes such to rise to the occasion. Read your Machiavelli too, and some of his contemporaries. And the Arthashastra, and all of it. All of it is quite a bit more relevant to where we actually are in today's world, and were in the first part of the last century, as opposed to how we got there. And, as Lenin so famously asked, what is to be done? Choose your poison, it's all pretty ugly.

What you will learn from all of this is, basically, that the piano is firewood, Times Square is a dream. We're far too complex a society to run on anything like democratic principles and increasing democratic practice in a society like ours are only going to make things worse.

I hope they still teach this stuff in school. If they don't, it's yet another thing which is simultaneously a demonstration of how fucked we are and a mechanism that's fucking us.
 
Last edited:
No, the EC (as I know you know) is made up of electors from each state. The EC has always voted the way their states popular vote tells them to vote. Therefor, the EC has never elected anyone against the popular vote (factored for all 50 states and DC). You know that silly man.

As far as I know, yes. Although there has been faithless electors, I don't think they've ever cost a presidential election.

They may have cost a vice presidential election (1796). ETA: Scratch that - looks like I was wrong. 1796 election is all sorts of wack, but Jefferson appears to be the legitimate runner up.
 
When you cast back on all the human governments the obvious lesson is, every attempt by one sector of society to leverage control over another has ultimately failed.

Every time we exclude the less intellectual, or the less skilled, or those who own no land, or the smart people because they use big words we don't understand, we move away from what will work toward what hasn't worked. We can repeatedly say no to change out of fear, which is like the kicking of the proverbial can down the road, or we can stop oppositional government and use co-operative democracy.

In all past societies the very act of discussion required people to gather, a huge time waste. We have instant global communication, we can govern at the speed of light, we can decentralized control and build a population controlled government. Social media being used to control government scares us because it's a new concept, we worry that through some tiny crack all our freedoms might fall away, we can wring our hands with worry or get involved and help guide the positive changes the world is heading into.
 
^The thought of social media controlling government certainly should scare us. I think you have much higher ideas about the average human social media user than I do.

I really don't think the majoirty of the population should be involved in making decisions they are simply not qualified to. Using democratic principles to allow popular ideas to become realities will leave us in a huge mess. As I may have asked, would you choose a particular medical treatment because a majority of people told you to or would you do it only if an expert in that field told you to? I understand why we vote for our leaders- its to give us that semblance of control, I think- but I think one of the reasons is that we acknowledge that we probably aren't qualified to make every decision ourselves. I'm not sure why we think that politicians are the ones who can make these decisions, and that's a huge downfall in the system. Democracy is only a step above tyranny in that the system is so easily exploited by a tyrant who can indirectly achieve the same ends. Qualifications- integrity- is not a requirement, popularity is. And there are only a limited amount of things a would-be leader can do to make themselves popular. The system is very easily gamed.

Humans fall automatically into hierarchical structures. Look at children and their incredible spontaneous social hierarchy (though note how they are always trying to be the dominant one in every circumstance, even the most dominantly generous?). Even the President thanks God. There is always a Top Dog, a Silverback to pound us into submission, and even when there isn't one, we literally invent it. Humans did not evolve to experience and benefit from unlimited freedom to be and do whatever they want. We do not have the mental capacity to consider all the consequences of our decisions (though we would always love to be the One) but we are willing to believe that somebody else does. All any system requires is for the Alpha-type to find the weakness which he/they/she-hmm, fuck it, he can exploit to gain a greater share of power than others- below, I've tried to address why it is inevitable that an exploiter will arise. Populism, as advocated by people who think democracy should extend to include every decision, are just playing into the hands of tyranny through populism- unless we truly believe the average person is able to make important decisions on your behalf, and again, I certainly wouldn't be getting a total stranger I randomly encountered decide what I would have for dinner let alone how my life should operate. Humans behave differently in social settings in almost every way imaginable. There is good reason to think that popular opinions do not actually reflect what is good, or what is best, or what is even popular. Universal Democracy forces popular opinion into being the leverage employed upon the majority by the majority. And there is no reason to think this majority deserves that power or is qualified to use it.

Put it this way, if ruminant animals like cows had attained self-awareness and global domination like humans, would they have created the sort of political system that humans have, or did we do it as a by-product of the organic structuring our 'natural' societies fall into and have for millions of years...? I think the ills of our political system are ills of human nature, and by ill, I really mean fact. We evolved to be competitive, greedy, jealous and proud because these traits enabled our survival. What sort of animal will rise to the top of a system that is based solely on individual advancement (remembering that only individuals mutate/evolve and not species) or death/eternal oblivion? Nature does not progress as much as parts of it which are weak or useless die and that which isn't survives. That makes the individual human the result of incredible stressors and pressure shaping them into the sort of beings who cannot be controlled by reason and logic, but due to their intelligence their sense of logic and reason MUST BE pandered to to ensure cooperation by the ineivtable alpha male that lurks in the shadows.

My mind is wandering, I'm not sure if the part about self-aware cows makes any sense but it is done.
 
Just a quick comment - cattle also have a hierarchy in a herd.

Hierarchies seem normal in a grouping of any complexity. Perhaps, say, a bed of mussel may not have a social hierarchy, but more complex animals in a group seem to develop hierarchies.

To think about a society that doesn't develop hierarchies seems to venture off into Science Fiction. Perhaps a society of sessile creatures with no control over their reproduction would not develop a hierarchy (but I cannot think of an evolutionary advantage that intelligence would give, so why would such creatures be sentient?).
 
Democracy works great at preserving rights and freedom's, and expressing the peoples will. But it is an utter disaster in practice when it comes to making decisions for the greater good in the long term at short term expense.

It can also hinder rights. Mob rule can result in loss of rights. Would a purely democrat confederate states of america have ever freed their slaves? Would a democratic india get rid of their caste system?

How come no one ever busts indias chops for their caste system? There you have oppression on a massive scale and no one ever says anything.
 
Democracy works great at preserving rights and freedom's, and expressing the peoples will. But it is an utter disaster in practice when it comes to making decisions for the greater good in the long term at short term expense.
It can also hinder rights. Mob rule can result in loss of rights.

Democracy is an absolute nightmare for "rights and freedoms." A democratic state has more demands from it's citizens (less crime! better schools! welfare programs! keep us safe from terrorism!) some of which are manufactured by the state apparatus (remember the Lusitania! war on drugs! WMDs! war on terror!) which result in more demands on it's citizens in the form of taxes, conscription, intrusive law enforcement and intelligence practices, and the overall mechanisms of totalitaranism. By contrast, if we had a life-appointed or even hereditary ruler who's only real interest was really in staying in power, earning a bit of honest graft, and ensuring success economically and at war, then we would be in a significantly less totalitarian society, even if we didn't get to pick and chose our leaders and might wind up before a firing squad for criticizing them with particular vigour. And yet, still, we would probably be more free.

These sorts of societies only start to get really ugly (in a midcentury-Europe sort of way) when paranoia about internal and external threats gets ramped up and the upper echelons of society form a closed loop. This is a very real concern. So what we really need is some sort of syncretic fusion of democratic and nondemocratic forms, and of right- and left-wing programmes and ideals of government. Mussolini and Qaddafi had some good ideas in this direction, unfortunately they both met with hauntingly similar ends. So the answer is left as an exercise to the reader; I hardly claim to be able to posit an ideal forum of government but for some general ideas (a Mussolinean style of corporatism being one that has a strong appeal to me [see in part below] and hasn't really been tried in anything resembling good circumstances, perhaps even with some sort of dictatorship or monarchy; the boutique ideology of minarchist-capitalist-monarchists actually have some interesting ideas, basically saying that the King owns the country and takes sole interest in it's economic proceeds, and it's economic proceeds all the way down.)

Fascism denies that numbers, as such, can be the determining factor in human society; it denies the right of numbers to govern by means of periodical consultations; it asserts the irremediable and fertile and beneficent inequality of men who cannot be leveled by any such mechanical and extrinsic device as universal suffrage. Democratic regimes may be described as those under which the people are, from time to time, deluded into the belief that they exercise sovereignty, while all the time real sovereignty resides in and is exercised by other and sometimes irresponsible and secret forces. Democracy is a kingless regime infested by many kings who are sometimes more exclusive, tyrannical, and destructive than one, even if he be a tyrant. online text
Mussolini and Gentile, Doctrine of Fascism (1935 official English ed., official NFP/government publication.)

Anyway, voting is overrated.

Would a purely democrat confederate states of america have ever freed their slaves?

I don't want to totally derail the thread, but almost certainly, and without a doubt, yes. Increases in technology and labor resentment by poor whites, as well as progress in general would eventuate enough pressure for the development of an economic and political solution (i.e. a buyout for the slave owners and the return of the slaves to Africa), which would've saved us a whole lot of grief in general, and not even just in terms of an almost unbelievably bloody, fratricidal, and completely unnecessary war amongst the states, but going forward, as the dispossessed former slaves could be returned, genuinely, with something like "40 acres and a mule," to African colonies (Liberia, which is now one of the most troubled countries on the entire troubled continent, originated [cf. it's name] as a failed experiment in doing so, but it was done in a halfassed way, and, as so often, halfassed efforts result in worse results than doing nothing at all.)

This would also have saved us a lot of racial resentment and internal discord that comes down to haunt us today, in addition to allowing us a more homogeneous society, which, as I've mentioned above, is more conducive to a longer republican moment before in the inevitable devolution into democratic tyranny. The Civil War was one of the real turning points in which the illusion of American democracy faded (the belief that it was a war to "free the slaves" is an absurdity, it was an economic and ideological war, pure and simple, with slavery being merely a distraction, albeit one which took on a life of it's own—as anyone who has actually studied the Emancipation proclamation knows, it was a military measure at first; and though Lincoln was certainly a genuine abolitionist in his own principles, he did not start, or at best create conditions for, a war, out of these principle.) So, too, was Lincoln almost certainly our first tyrant, tyrannical presidencies only growing thereafter, with the next quantum leaps at Wilson and FDR, and all the way down the road to the totalitarian state in which we live today.

Would a democratic india get rid of their caste system?

Probably not.

How come no one ever busts indias chops for their caste system? There you have oppression on a massive scale and no one ever says anything.

How come no one ever busts israels chops for their immigration policy?

Beacuse w're only allowed to criticize White people. This is hardly news. "It's their culture." (And it is. And they have a great culture and rich tradition. So in this case, I actually kind of agree with a sentiment I usually don't, and say let them alone to have it; but if they want to Westernize and become a world power with a UN security council seat and nuclear weapons and participation in international trade, maybe we ought to have a bit more input. So too China.)

The thought of social media controlling government certainly should scare us.

It should probably scare us more than anything in this thread. And the really scary thing is that corporations like Google and Facebook are actually getting involved with "democracy promotion efforts." This should fucking terrify everyone. Especially as via interlinking corporate boards and government contracts and venture funding and such they have a lot of connections with, inter alia, the CIA, that classic "promoter of democracy" (see: Oracle and Larry Ellison and the Agency); Google, in addition to have taken seed funding from the IC, and continuing to work for and with them, I believe has even been overtly in bed with organizations like the known CIA fronts USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy, in it's efforts in "democracy promotion." Not to mention that Google, itself, as a medium and filter for information, is eo ipso a very grave threat to "a well-informed citizenry," and thus to even an idealized version of democracy; so too Facebook, and all the rest.

Of course the best thing to do is to put democracy to bed and return ourselves more to the natural order of things, or (as in the ideals of syncretic political fascism), to do our best to adopt the same to modern conditions.
 
Last edited:
I thank you, bro; you are a gentleman and a scholar as well, and we perennially seem to have good communication even along fault lines and an uncannily similar set of opinions and tastes in any number of things (with a notable exception or two lol.) I also have the somewhat insufferable and compulsive habit of constantly re-editing and reshuffling my posts and adding more content to them (just did) ... luckily for now I'm doing it from home on an actual computer, but I know the pain of writing fucking essay tier posts on mobile and losing the crap out of them. I always save them on notepad (vim(1), actually, for anyone who is enough of a tech geek to care), because there's few things I hate more in interacting with this site than retyping paragraph upon paragraph of tl;dr ;) Which reminds me I have a saved file of a post on theology I have to patch up and post …

Obiter: An interesting case of a historical attempt to mitigate some of the problems of democracy, and an interpretation of it's possible value is here, Electing the Doge of Venice: Analysis of a 13th Century Protocol (Mobwray and Gollmann, HP Enterprise Systems Technical Report, 2007).
 
Last edited:
When the fountain pen was dropped in favour of the newly available ballpoint people feared children would forget how to write. We feared calculators before we needed them. We fear(ed) cellphone use. Basically every innovation has begun life as the new boogie man.

We will stop forcing people to gather and use antiquated voting contraptions, soon I hope. Fear of storing our money in an electronic medium vanished once people found how convenient it was. Voting will be exactly the same. Eventually the fear mongers will cave in and change will begin. If we begin planning now we can get ahead of the crowd and have real options planned.

Over half the voters don't value their vote enough to walk to the store, step one is make voting convenient. Step two is making it a common practice using the same device for everything civic to federal. Step 3 introduce the beginning of public controlled government.

Our government should be taking its job much more seriously. Fixing voter apathy will not happen by scolding the population. Change should happen very soon, some of our less stable members of the population are nearing boiling point.
 
^Step One is certainly a great idea, being able to vote using phone or whatever would definitely increase voter numbers imo. I still think there are huge problems with democratic voting on every issue. I wonder if it would actually trivialize ones voting powers so to speak.

What do you think are the great tangible benefits of this sort of voting system?
 
When the fountain pen was dropped in favour of the newly available ballpoint people feared children would forget how to write. We feared calculators before we needed them. We fear(ed) cellphone use. Basically every innovation has begun life as the new boogie man.

We will stop forcing people to gather and use antiquated voting contraptions, soon I hope. Fear of storing our money in an electronic medium vanished once people found how convenient it was. Voting will be exactly the same. Eventually the fear mongers will cave in and change will begin. If we begin planning now we can get ahead of the crowd and have real options planned.

Over half the voters don't value their vote enough to walk to the store, step one is make voting convenient. Step two is making it a common practice using the same device for everything civic to federal. Step 3 introduce the beginning of public controlled government.

Our government should be taking its job much more seriously. Fixing voter apathy will not happen by scolding the population. Change should happen very soon, some of our less stable members of the population are nearing boiling point.

^Step One is certainly a great idea, being able to vote using phone or whatever would definitely increase voter numbers imo. I still think there are huge problems with democratic voting on every issue. I wonder if it would actually trivialize ones voting powers so to speak.

What do you think are the great tangible benefits of this sort of voting system?

YB. The only response to the replacement of fountain pens was a collective sigh of relief from left handers who thought "less smudges, less fascist teachers trying to make me write with my wrong hand". Or tell me otherwise, I'm all ears. And who feared the calculator? I can give you reasons NOW why it's overuse is a crap invention for schoolkids but I have no recollection of such worries in the 1970s.

Voters not valuing their vote is where you have a point. But you don't change this by superficially changing the way we vote. People need confidence in politicians, ideology and leadership, not focus groups, a transparent system that cuts corruption etc etc.

Swilow. Letting people vote by phone. What could possibly go wrong? :)

People need engagement with the process, not divorce. Alternatively, maybe we need divorce. Governments need political legitimacy. They get this through voter turnout. Just say no.

Extra-parliamentary activity > a vote every few years.
 
I don't see paper ballots as antiquated. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's out of date.

A new solution should solve issues without creating greater issues. So far, electronic voting solves a few issues (e.g. far better for the blind, slightly quicker counting), but introduces the issue of making fraud much easier.
 
Voters not valuing their vote is where you have a point. But you don't change this by superficially changing the way we vote. People need confidence in politicians, ideology and leadership, not focus groups, a transparent system that cuts corruption etc etc.

People need engagement with the process, not divorce. Alternatively, maybe we need divorce. Governments need political legitimacy. They get this through voter turnout. Just say no.

Extra-parliamentary activity > a vote every few years.

1.

Surprise, we're highly agreed on some things. Only difference is, I don't think things are fixable as they stand. Corruption is inevitable and inherent in any system, transparency depends on people giving a shit what's exposed, and understanding it, and actually trusting whatever entity is supposed to make the process "transparent." I don't think people will gain confidence in our leaders except for people who are dedicated followers of those leaders ("fans" might be a better word because a lot of this has more in common with entertainment than politics—who wants to lay odds on when a Kardashian gets elected to some office?) Only ideologues have confidence in ideology, most people either can't be bothered, don't follow, or don't systematize their politics like that; most people follow the party line that their parents followed, or follow a personality, or are fixed on one or two key issues. I myself don't vote, living in New York City which is almost entirely locked down by the Democrat Party (except for a small exclave in the Upper East Side, and most of the borough of Staten Island.) I would only vote for President if I lived in a state that's actually contested, and, then, I would vote on one basis and one basis only: the most feasible candidate who is likely to appoint Supreme Court Justices furthest to the right. Nothing else matters. Confidence in leadership is lower and lower; I don't think most people really understand the meaning of the word; true "leaders" are rare; you'll find some in the military, some in the corporate world, etc. Most politicians are in no ways leaders, they're demagogues. Most of what the President of the U.S. does is done in his name by professional political operatives, he of course makes decisions but is largely a figurehead for a party apparatus, his donors and boosters and cronies, and the bureaucratic and political apparatus operating beneath him. So, too, for most members of the legislature, not to mention that they tend to vote on party lines.

As for making voting easier, adding more voting to our system would be something like just doubling a cancer patient's chemotherapy because you weren't seeing the results you liked. You'll kill the patient faster than the cancer. The votes that you'll be enabling are going to be the worst ones. If people can't be bothered to properly register to vote, do you really expect them to be interested and informed enough to make a decision? The Democrat party in the U.S. loves more accessibility because it tends to capture huge supermajorities of the votes of undereducatd and undermotivated minorities.

Each and very undereducated, low-information and apathetic voter who makes it to the polls, especially the one who is easily swayed by promises of handouts or economic advantage or identity politics issues or whatever, is toxic to "democracy" (which as I've made it clear I don't think is a good or workable system to begin with), and unleashing any more of them just means that either the media (including "social media") will determine the candidates, or may the best demagogue win.

Obama won with nothing but a just-black-enough face to get "minorities" and self-flagellating White folks excited but not-black-enough to be threatening to soccer moms, a teleprompter, and the adoration of the media. Trump won by being an expert and seasoned troll. Things will only get worse the more people vote. If we want a better democracy, let's have less people voting. Let's have some criteria of basic political knowledge on "the issues" (most of which are bullshit anyway) and, say, if you can't properly identify your candidate's stand on these issues (remember the videos where people would go around and ask, mostly Black, people if they agreed with Obama being, e.g., pro-life? And people would enthusiastically say yes, and then they would go on with various of McCain [or Romney?]'s positions, down the line, and say Obama says this, Obama says that, and they kept saying they loved him), then GTFO the voting booth.

And, SHM, the bolded part, I'm, uncommonly, totally with you on that. As per the title of a P.J. O'Rourke book, Don't Vote, It Only Encourages the Bastards. I'm almost sure I know that quote from an earlier source, but Google failed me on that. I had thought it was W.C. Fields, but his famous quote on voting is actually "I never voted for anyone, only against." Which, in truth, is what a lot of people were doing in the last election; it's a quote that's deeper than it sounds on first hearing; it's a bit of a reference to the old "lesser of two weasels" thing, but goes a bit deeper than that.

I don't vote at all, and encourage other people not to; many people, especially older people and (invariably left-leaning) young hipster-activist types (the right-leaning ones understand more, I think), recoil in horror when I say so. I often use the "it only encourages them" line. Which contains a real truth. If we can actually get a political movement of non-voting as a way to undermine the appearance of the legitimacy of the system, I'm all for that.

Some countries, not very many, have a "none of the above" option on the ballot. Let's see none of the above win. Even if they put the second-place son of a bitch in office, that would be quite a statement. This wiki on the subject is actually pretty wide-ranging and interesting. More interesting is that there's a lot of resistance to none of the above. I wonder why?

Elections where people rank the candidates rather than vote for one absolutely might be slightly preferable, but who cares?

The popular franchise, and bourgeois democracy in general, is a sham, to paraphrase my quote from Mussolini and Gentile, supra, a kingless regime infested by many petty and tyrannical kings with only their self-interest at heart, which results in, eventually, one individual taking on role of king and tyrant, answerable only to a synthetic and virtual "king" made of numbers. To delve a little bit deeper,

[Liberal] democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number; but [Fascism] is the purest form of democracy if the nation be considered as it should be from the point of view of quality rather than quantity … In rejecting democracy, Fascism rejects the absurd conventional lie of political equalitarianism, the habit of collective irresponsibility, the myth of felicity and indefinite progress.
Mussolini and Gentile, op. cit.


The habit of collective irresponsibility. Let that one sink in. That's definitely on the American political radar. It's the kind of language that is indeed used in efforts to encourage people to exercise their franchise (certainly deeper than the imbecilic sloganeering of P. Diddy, VOTE OR DIE), but, in fact, the essential irresponsibility is that of the voter who delegates his concerns to a politician that appeals to him, usually simply for partisan reasons, by which we may as well say by family tradition and environment (partisanship is very heritable according to almost all studies in American politics) or by reason of personal charisma, or ethnic affiliation, and more, tribal affiliation is a huge deal in democracies like Nigeria, for instance; the idea of "tribe" has also been put to good metaphorical use to describe certain types of groupings in American politics, especially geographic groupings, where there's some consistency of values and spirit, which doesn't invariably lead to the same way of voting, but certainly influences it; Colin Woodard has identified 11 such 'nations' within the US. Race was almost certainly the sole reason for the election of Obama, for instance, and, as for the second term, as is typical, partisanship alone; I find the man utterly devoid of charisma and, while he had a few good speeches (written by who knows) during the election, as President, he just comes off as condescending and pompous. Bill Clinton, of course, was a natural politician and one of the most charismatic politicians we've seen in most of our lifetimes; his wife, on the other hand, has none. Trump has it, in a way, definitely, although it's a way that's noxious to many people.

But voting on the basis of all of this—which is what the vast majority of the electorate does? Collective irresponsibility. The collective spirit of the people being satisfied with mere electoral democracy and nominal periodic change while their true masters remain the same is the epitome of collective irresponsibility. Unfortunately, the opportunities for taking the corresponding individual responsibility are slim. It certainly won't come at the ballot-box. No candidate with an actual interest in "change" has or probably ever will be (allowed to be) elected. Trump is the closest thing we've had to an outsider as president, possibly ever, if we count military men to be insiders. Perhaps Zachary Taylor who was a military hero but relatively apolitical and won the presidency counts as an outsider in this sense. Many military leaders of them have made fine presidents. Eisenhower, for instance, is the last president of the U.S. who I really "like" (although Nixon is underrated.) And as I've said many times before, I think our only collective hope in this country is a military coup. Which would be the individual responsibility of our military leaders.

2.

So our only way to really exercise our individual responsibility is non-electoral political actions, just like SHM mentions above as "extra-parliamentary activity." Which means propaganda, primarily. Which is what most of us are doing here. Propaganda and awaiting the time when we can take real action. Violent action against the State apparatus at this point of course is pointless and generally speaking morally wrong as it will (like Oklahoma City) in the majority harm only innocents, various people have tried doing so in order to "ignite" a movement of some kind and have invariably failed, and committing random acts of terrorism unlikely to endear them or their political views to the public. A lone gunman isn't going to save things, not even by taking out some hated political figure. That's not what I mean when I'm talking about individual responsibility.

What's more, we are not really ripe for "direct action" now. Which is to say, things aren't dire enough yet. Our bellies are too full of food and our brains are too full of tabloid news and porn and cat memes and retweets—panem et circenses. Look at how quickly "Occupy Wall Street" was coöpted by the left-liberal wing of the Democrat party, and then eventually shut down when it became a public nuisance. Yes, I was there, I visited there several times, it was quite a lively scene with the police presence and all, I participated in some of the marches and stuff just for the sake of the experience, really. The numbers of people and the media attention was impressive for a while, but what was actually going on there was unimpressive. I witnessed people >unironically wearing Obama buttons and T-shirts, obvious political operatives from the said mainstream party, and people of every groupuscular political persuasion from anarcho-capitalists to Trots and Maoists and Avakianites and LaRouchists and back again propagandizing, and people pressing every kind of boutique issue, all of these being "professional protesters" and career countercultural types, but most people present really were without any coherent agenda or ideology and most importantly no leadership, or rather, leadership rapidly being coöpted and controlled, this being in some sense the fault of the naïveté of the "leaderless" part of the project, to build a movement, one needs leaders, and in particular strong, charismatic leaders, which were seriously lacking there.

The only people who were there actually taking this responsibility were members of obscure political groupuscules, often long-lived (although inevitably undergoing fissions every few years on average) but going nowhere and taking their time about it. Most people were there as tourists or for lack of anything better to do, during the day, there were a lot of random wandering tourists and bourgeois liberal types [like the ones with the aforementioned Obama stickers], but especially at night, although this element was of course visible by day to, the place was lousy with ne'er-do-wells and crusties and such, not to mention a bunch of real homeless street people, a lot of whom had serious mental health/drug issues. Anyway day/night the whole place stunk of weed. The stories in the papers about women getting molested and finding discarded needles and stuff were not made up bullshit as the OWS crowd were wont to claim.

And as quoted within Doctrine,

Reason and science are the products of mankind, but it is chimerical to seek reason directly for the people and through the people. It is not essential to the existence of reason that all should be familiar with it; and even if all had to be initiated, this could not be achieved through democracy which seems fated to lead to the extinction of all arduous forms of culture and all highest forms of learning … [and to] form of society in which a degenerate mass would have no thought beyond that of enjoying the ignoble pleasures of the vulgar.
J. Ernest Renan, Meditations, quoted in ibid.

That's basically what we're talking about. It's social élites, for the most part, or people benefiting from their patronage, who deal in reason, science, and practical politics. The average person doesn't have the capacity for that, or even if he has the capacity, he lacks the time, or the education, or the inclination, the persuasion, whatever. Not all people are equal by nature (no tabula rasa), even if, morally, they should be treated with equal dignity, which is the Christian teaching and I think one which most seculars would agree with as well. What's more, and what follows, and not all people are equally capable, or disposed, to govern. To suppose that the math or the law of averages somehow will embody the will of the people is highly questionable, and to suppose that it will manifest what in fact is for the collective good of the people is preposterous. Everyone bewailing Donald Trump's election will have to sign on to that, all excuses otherwise are bullshit; so too everyone who would bewailed Obama, or would have Hilary, or who would have bewailed them all, or select the lesser evil, which is still a weasel.

Swilow. Letting people vote by phone. What could possibly go wrong? :)

The idea of any type of voting other than by paper ballots is inherently vulnerable to attack, because every computer system is vulnerable to attack. And, as the quote attributed to Stalin goes, "it's the people who count the votes that matter." Electronic voting, period, is a terrible idea, because we've yet to be met with an unhackable computer system. There are various esoteric "electronic voting" protocols using advanced sorts of cryptography, but they wouldn't scale to a medium-sized town, let alone a large city or a nation (they're more theoretical and/or useful for certain types of "voting" built in to other computer protocols.) But as for voting with machines that do not produce a verifiable paper trail, it is impossible to produce a machine which cannot, with some ease, be altered to give out a different result. Voting by phone, or by the almost unbelievably insecure Internet, is a terrible idea and would spell an end to any vestige of democracy we actually have.

All the bullshit about the "Russians hacking the election" is just about the possibility that Russian intelligence agencies hacked into certain computers used by the major parties, and then leaked documents for propaganda purposes. Put elections online, and people actually can, and will, hack elections. From the people in power (easiest) to foreign powers ("advanced persistent threats" in security lingo) to the proverbial kid-in-his-basement with a Guy Fawkes mask. Bruce Schneier, one of the foremost experts in cryptography and computer security in the field (Applied Cryptography [1993], Practical Cryptography [2001], and Cryptographic Engineering [2010] set the standard) has a lot of commentary on this issue, see here, here, especially here He's written a great deal on this subject, even more on his blog (read the comments, BTW, they are by far the most informed blog comments I've ever seen and include regular participants who are "black hat," "gray hat," and "white hat" "hackers.") If you have any thought of electronic voting being a good idea, read this shit. It will spell the end of any sort of confidence in vote-counting, if you had that to begin with (and, in general, I think the paper votes are probably tallied more or less accurately within the margin of human error and small-scale fraud (which in really close cases can make all the difference; it came out, eventually, that it we could be fairly confident that G.W. Bush won his first term, but there was a while there where there was a legitimate question) BUT see some of the linked content where ~18,000 votes go missing in an election decided by >1000.)

I don't see paper ballots as antiquated. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's out of date.

A new solution should solve issues without creating greater issues. So far, electronic voting solves a few issues (e.g. far better for the blind, slightly quicker counting), but introduces the issue of making fraud much easier.

It's not just that fraud is easier. It's that it is completely unavoidable with computers, and can be done with practically zero evidence, or at least zero evidence of who was responsible, and with "plausible deniability" that it was a bug and an error. Electronic voting is an almost inconceivably bad idea. Even worse is the idea of voting remotely via a website; and by phone is worse yet than that. All of the desiderata of ballot-casting (reliability, anonymity, accuracy, etc.) are gone with electronic methods, period. There needs to be a paper trail. And not just something printed off a computer. "Hanging chads" and all that aside, hole-punching is by far the safest thing. Of course, someone can always discard a bunch of ballots, and it's always been so, but with computers, they can do much worse.

I have a lot more to say on this subject, but Schneier is actually a professional in the field, so just read what he has to say about it. Start here:
In Fairfax County, Virginia in 2003, a programming error in the electronic-voting machines caused them to mysteriously subtract 100 votes from one candidate's totals.

In a 2003 election in Boone County, Iowa the electronic vote-counting equipment showed that more than 140,000 votes had been cast in the municipal elections, even though only half of the county's 50,000 residents were eligible to vote.

In San Bernardino County, California in 2001, a programming error caused the computer to look for votes in the wrong portion of the ballot in 33 local elections, which meant that no votes registered on those ballots for that election. A recount was done by hand.

In Volusia County, Florida in 2000, an electronic voting machine gave Al Gore a final vote count of negative 16,022 votes.

There are literally hundreds of similar stories.
Schneier, What's Wrong With Electronic Voting Machines?
(full article)

He has an entire collection of essays about the security of elections, especially, but not entirely, computerized ones. It was from an piece of his that I found the article on the election of the doge of Venice that I posted above (it was one of these things that I'd read years ago that popped into my brain so I threw it up there.)
 
Last edited:
It's not just that fraud is easier. It's that it is completely unavoidable with computers, and can be done with practically zero evidence, or at least zero evidence of who was responsible, and with "plausible deniability" that it was a bug and an error. Electronic voting is an almost inconceivably bad idea. Even worse is the idea of voting remotely via a website; and by phone is worse yet than that. All of the desiderata of ballot-casting (reliability, anonymity, accuracy, etc.) are gone with electronic methods, period. There needs to be a paper trail. And not just something printed off a computer. "Hanging chads" and all that aside, hole-punching is by far the safest thing. Of course, someone can always discard a bunch of ballots, and it's always been so, but with computers, they can do much worse.

One thing about discarding a bunch of ballots (or doing the alternative - stuffing the box with ballots for the candidate that you want) is that you need to do it everywhere, or else it shows up.

Roughly speaking, voter turnout should not have any correlation with the percentage of voters who vote for the winning candidate. In your hypothetical attack, we'd see the precincts with lower turnout disproportionately favor the winner. In past instances of fraud that's done by ballot stuffing and ballot manipulation, we see the opposite - precincts with high rates of turnout disproportionately favor the winner.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top