swilow said:
The Nazis thought that Jews were a threat that needed violence to combat it. They genuinely believed that was the only option to avoid a greater evil.
Do you think that's true? Genuine question.
I always thought the nazis cynically exploited hostility and distrust of the Jewish community for their own ends.
It's possibly one of those historical hypotheticals that doesn't really have an answer - but i really don't think that the nazis "genuinely believed" that Jews were a threat.
swilow said:
We can justify violence by claiming higher moral ground but I'm not convinced. Of course, I would stand up to a racist abusing someone and would defend myself physically if it came to it, I've had to use violence in my life as self defense a number of times.
It
might be taking the "high moral ground" to say that a group of people, their beliefs, tactics, intentions and agenda have no place in the community i'm a part of (and i will do anything i possibly can to disrupt their activities) - but i don't see what is especially controversial about that.
I mean - the governments of developed "western" world essentially took the same stance towards communism in the second part of last century - but far, far more extreme (with numerous assassinations, nuclear brinksmanship, widespread destabilisation projects, 'proxy wars' and a great deal of effort put into violently suppressing Marxist ideology.
Do the countries involved in the anti-communist side of the "cold war" reflect upon that period of time with regret, with shame or guilt?
Not that i can see. The intelligence agencies involved - such as the CIA, MI6, ASIO (in the USA, UK and Australia respectively) all still exist, and continue to target people based upon their political beliefs or ideology - and although much of their surveillance nowadays would seem to be focused upon Jihadi terror groups, we are still continue to learn of environment activists (for example) that are infiltrated and find their activities subverted by undercover agents of the state in the post-cold war era.
"Anti-globalisation" activist groups have been infiltrated by agent provocateurs (which is sort of interesting given that quite a bit of commentary has held neo-liberal economics - and "globalism" responsible for the disillusionment and economic hardship that led to Trump's ascent to the Presidency.
swilow said:
Attacking fascists gives them power. Their opposition to you becomes justified in their eyes. Any gain you make through violence must be maintained through violence.
I don't agree with that.
For one thing - much of what i say about "antifa" is in a local, Australian context.
Over here, antifascists have had a pretty positive effect in shitting in the fascists' cornflakes - and this is not only through physical confrontations on the street, but also a clever social media campaign that has tracked a lot of the prominent members of neo-fascist grouplets, exposed some of the more unsavoury rhetoric they spew publicly - and generally humiliated the far-right and neo-nazi groups through a range of techniques.
One such technique anti-fascist activists have adopted is to publish long-deleted blog and facebook posts, as well as things such as youtube comments (praising Hitler, for instance) from people claiming to be squeaky-clean "concerned citizens" against muslim immigration or refugee support in any form.
The result has been a highly amusing series of meltdowns, factional splits, threats of violence between various members of the racist right in Australia.
Literally every time the Australian far right has a demonstration, they end up having a factional split - and renaming their pathetic pseudo-political groups.
I don't think there has been a great deal of violence from the anti-fascist left, especially this year.
Several of the fascists have been raided by the federal police and charged with terrorism offences, though.
the Guardian said:
]A Victorian anti-Islam extremist conducted surveillance of “leftwing” premises where he planned to launch deadly bombing attacks, police allege.
“Loss of life to persons possessing leftwing ideologies was the focus of the attack
- from
here
Honestly, i would say it has been a very successful campaign against the sort of groups that make up the far-right in Australia. Rather than give them power, the bright spotlight of anti-fascist attention has made Australian neo-fascists into something (more) of a laughing stock.
This video (and the others made by the same guy) exemplifies the sort of satire made by anti-fascists, aimed at these people.
Pointed political satire is a far more effective weapon than a fist or a boot - not that satire is even
necessary with a lot of the ravings of the far right; it's like unwitting self-satire - sometimes i feel guilty for laughing at people so clearly afflicted with intellectual shortcomings (is that too PC? Let's just say that a lot of these fellows are dumb as fuck
) - but they spew so much vacuous vitriol that any guilt very quickly dissolves.
Sadly, the redneck far-right in parliament are another story - with the government doing what it can to pander to their interests for the sake of trying to win their (namely One Nation's) votes, because the have such a slim majority.
But in terms of the far right on the street? "Reclaim Australia", the "United Patriots Front" and their
never-quite-got-around-to-submitting-the-electoral-registration aborted attempt at a parliamentary wing "Fortitude" - as well as the "True Blue Crew" (such embarassing names...) - have all been absolutely humiliated online.
Ignoring these people does not make them go away.
If anything, i think carrying on in the way they do and not facing any opposition makes these types feel they can do so with impunity - and the belief that they are actually representing some kind of voice of the community other than their own echo chamber of paranoia and hearsay - and is likely to embolden them more.
Exposing them as dangerous, delusional thugs with extensive criminal histories and psychopathic tendencies
does.
Is this a form of attacking fascists? You bet! And it was done by anti-fascists (with a little help from the federal police when the bombing plot came to light, i guess).
Some of us will oppose fascism by any means necessary.
swilow said:
Reason is the best way. For me, I choose not to play the games of either side. I can't support antifa because they are too liberal in crying racist and they end up attacking people based on hearsay or assumptions. This has happened to many metal bands. I would rather turn my back on most of society.
That's your call - but to me, accusing antifa of taking the high moral ground - and preferring to "turn your back on most of society" seems like an unwillingness to get involved.
I can understand that - but i also think if we all turned our backs on what is going on in the unpleasant fringes, we'd be up to our necks in very scary shit in no time.
I've never heard anyone accuse anti-fascists of being too "liberal" - but that term is frequently misused, and seems to have entirely different definitions, depending on where you are in the world.
As for what happens in Europe - i follow what happens at home more closely, so i don't know enough to comment - and the same goes for anti-fascist interactions with metal bands in Europe.
Not being a metalhead, i must admit i don't really know the context of what you're talking about to either agree or disagree.
But generally, i think this idea that the left ought to be held to a higher standard of behaviour (when it comes to resisting advances of the far right) makes no sense.
If anything, i think the left have been
too nice for too long, and if we want to regain some political influence, we need to get back to basics - and down and dirty when need be.
Australian anti-fascists have outnumbered, outwitted and embarassed the hell out of the neo-fascist/nazi/hard right in this country.
It's something that has been done unapologetically - and largely (but not entirely) without violence. To me, that's something to be proud of, and grateful for.
I respect pacifist beliefs a lot - and in all honesty (to quote another great rock'n'roll song)
i'm a lover not a fighter.
I've never once in my life gone out looking for a fight - i'm
not that kind of man.
But philosophically, the idea of physically resisting fascism (blocking marches,
preventing neo-nazis from attacking "lefties" community events celebrating diversity and calling for Australia to increase its refugee intake) does not trouble me at all.
Solidarity is important to me - as is community. I value the multicultural society i grew up in, and really love the diversity of the city i recently moved to.
I'm not a patriot - i'm not moved by national pride and find contemporary Australian nationalism hilarious, because it is a tacky and utterly superficial carbon-copy of American flag-waving; ironic, and really quite bizarre (and just plain laughable) cultural phenomenon.
But when i see that there are people actively attempting to undermine the harmonious diversity we have in Australia - i do all i can to oppose it.
Not just for the sake of
kicking against the pricks, but also because i don't want people in this country to feel threatened - or targeted - for their ethnicity, or for having been born somewhere else on the planet.
As you can see by this longwinded post - i'm passionate about this subject; but being
passionate and being rational are not mutually exclusive things
I hope that answers your question, nutty.
Frankly, i don't think most Americans know what a true skinhead even is - but i'm not a skinhead - i just like to point out that this idea than skinhead = neo-nazi is just false.
Know your subcultures and all that. To a lot of yanks, a "traditional skinhead" would appear to be dressed like a preppy Ivy League type of person.
The whole "hammerskin"/"bonehead" thing came a lot later - and frankly the Americanised version (as seen in American History X or Romper Stomper) is a bastardised bears little resemblance to the "real (original) thing".
Why do i even care to point these things out? Because i'm endlessly fascinated by
culture.
Why do i bother? Sometimes i'm not too sure myself.
I apologise for further digressing from the subject of the thread - but the presidential election is over, so i don't feel too bad
What's interesting though, is how many times the discussion of the 2016 US elections has veered off into discussions about fascism.
What's that purportedly ancient Chinese proverb about living in
interesting times?
(Apparently it is neither ancient, nor a Chinese proverb - but i've prattled on enough)
